Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[mAcChaos]

Having a alien soldier that's stronger than the others is a plothole?! So I guess, Goku and Vegeta being way stronger than they were on namek is a plothole too?!
That logic is stupid. There are 1000 alien soldiers from god knows where vs 5 z fighters + jaco out there. And none of them can successfully attack our heroes, because it will be a plothole.

I don't think you understood what I said, frankly.

They want Freeza back because without his power they are having trouble holding on to their empire. That seems logical since without Freeza and top fighters like the Ginyu force, they have a much harder time having a clear advantage in power and striking fear over the planets of the empire, so those planets start to rebel.

Except they have a soldier that is WAYY stronger than 100% Freeza... Freeza ruled his empire unchallenged without even using his second form... His 500.000 level was enough... And someone as strong as Buu arc Piccolo can't? And they need someone weaker than him back to keep the empire?

Yeah, no... Plothole.

What if the people they were trying to suppress also grew stronger over the decades?

It seems like everybody kept up in the arms race as time passed.

[rereboy]

I haven't seen the film, so I'm still not really clear how this pans out. This is what Julian wrote:

As the crowd of soldiers thins, Piccolo is taken on directly by Shisami, who proves a more formidable challenge than the others. Gohan steps in, however, and makes quick work of him after becoming a Super Saiyan. Sorbet is horrified, and Freeza says he didn’t know how truly fearsome a Super Saiyan was."

That means he is stronger than the other enemies, which were completely useless. That doesn't mean he was beating Piccolo. Piccolo may have been holding back, or perhaps he did not expect him to be so strong and was caught off guard. It doesn't mean he is stronger than Freeza was, and it still doesn't change the fact that he wasn't sufficient in crushing rebellion.

The rest of your complaints sound like "I could write Dragon Ball better than Toriyama", which I'm not interested in discussing.

We've all seen the screens of Piccolo being punched down by that guy and we know that it was Gohan that took him down, not Piccolo. Unless that punch was a surprise punch and that's all he did (which I very much doubt since how would he prove to be superior to the other if that's all he does?), he has to be at the very least stronger than first form Freeza, which would be enough to do for the empire what Freeza did.

And your last phrase was actually very rude. You were the one you stated that they HAD to bring back Freeza, that there was no other way, and I just pointed out logical problems with that notion, and you response is saying that I'm somehow claiming that I'm better than Toriyama...?

[Faustus]

Yeah, no... Plothole.

Yeah, no - you're deliberately insisting on the worst possible interpretation, one which is nowhere supported in the dialogue we're given. Nowhere is it said that Sorbet needed Freeza for his power.

Even if it were a question of power (which I don't believe it is, or at least not entirely), why can't Shisami be weaker than Freeza, and Piccolo be given some trouble by someone a good deal weaker than himself? Is this so impossible? Why does everything have to systematically reduce to A > B every single time?

[FortuneSSJ]

Except they have a soldier that is WAYY stronger than 100% Freeza... Freeza ruled his empire unchallenged without even using his second form... His 500.000 level was enough... And someone as strong as Buu arc Piccolo can't? And they need someone weaker than him back to keep the empire?
Yeah, no... Plothole.

You talk like you watched the movie.
Pretty sure Piccolo has a hard time fighthing that guy because he was getting tired. I don't know how bad the red guy beats Piccolo but its not impossible.

And why you say He's way stronger than 100% Freeza?! Land sucessful atacks doesn't make you the stronger.
Gohan damaged Raditz, Nappa,Vegeta, Freeza...
Tenshinhan, Krillin, Piccolo damaged Nappa
Vegeta and Goku damaged Perfect Cell

None of the Z fighters were stronger than the enemy in those fights. And I could go on.
I know people nowadays like to use words like depth, plothole and such everytime, but you must know what you're talking about.

He could be a new recruit too but I'm not even going there.

[rereboy]

What if the people they were trying to suppress also grew stronger over the decades?

It seems like everybody kept up in the arms race as time passed.

That might make it so that 500.000 wasn't enough. But I don't imagine all the various planets becoming strong enough that 100% Freeza is not enough to rule the empire. And if someone that can rival Buu arc Piccolo can't help them, Freeza also wouldn't as far as they knew. They didn't know that Freeza could grow much more powerful. That revelation shocked them in that manga adaptation.

You talk like you watched the movie.
Pretty sure Piccolo has a hard time fighthing that guy because he was getting tired. I don't know how bad the red guy beats Piccolo but its not impossible.

And why you say He's way stronger than 100% Freeza?! Land sucessful atacks doesn't make you the stronger.
Gohan damaged Raditz, Nappa,Vegeta, Freeza...
Tenshihan, Krillin, Piccolo damaged Nappa
Vegeta and Goku damaged Perfect Cell

None of the Z fighters were stronger than the enemy in those fights. And I could go on.
I know people nowadays like to use words like depth, plothole and such everytime, but you must know what you're talking about.

He could be a new recruit too but I'm not even going there.

We've seen many times that unless the attack is a surprise attack, a punch won't even make a dramatically stronger opponent budge. For example, #16 versus second-form Cell.

So, unless that punch is a surprise attack, and that soldier doesn't do anything else to Piccolo, he has to be stronger than 100% Freeza because Piccolo is WAYYYY stronger than 100% Freeza and only someone stronger than 100% Freeza would be able to fight him.

Also, the gap in power between all the characters in the situations you mentioned, is inferior to the gap that should exist between 100% Freeza and Buu arc Piccolo.

Finally, I see no reason why Buu arc Piccolo would get significantly tired from fighting a couple hundred Freeza's soldiers fodder. If that happens in the movie, I think it's weird.

Yeah, no - you're deliberately insisting on the worst possible interpretation, one which is nowhere supported in the dialogue we're given. Nowhere is it said that Sorbet needed Freeza for his power.

Even if it were a question of power (which I don't believe it is, or at least not entirely), why can't Shisami be weaker than Freeza, and Piccolo be given some trouble by someone a good deal weaker than himself? Is this so impossible? Why does everything have to systematically reduce to A > B every single time?

It's stated directly in the manga tie-in for this movie that they need Freeza so that he can bring order to the empire that has been left in chaos after his demise.

How do you think they expected him to do that other than by using his power? His charm...?

As for someone weaker than Piccolo fighting him, as we've seen multiple times, if a fighter is much weaker than another, unless he manages to get a surprise attack, a punch from him won't even budge the much stronger fighter. For example, #16 versus second-form Cell.

[batistabus]

We've all seen the screens of Piccolo being punched down by that guy and we know that it was Gohan that took him down, not Piccolo. Unless that punch was a surprise punch and that's all he did (which I very much doubt since how would he prove to be superior to the other if that's all he does?). he has to be at the very least stronger than first form Freeza, which would be enough to do for the empire what Freeza did.

And your last phrase was actually very rude. You were the one you stated that they HAD to bring back Freeza, that there was no other way, and I just pointed out logical problems with that notion, and you response is saying that I'm somehow claiming that I'm better than Toriyama...?

I'd like to see the full scene before I make a call. Is it possible for someone to get the best of Piccolo in the moment but still be overall significantly weaker than Freeza? I think so. Fans put a lot of emphasis on relative battle powers, but it's clear that Toriyama does not.

I don't mean to be rude, but that's how it comes off. Toriyama envisioned the circumstances to be such that where the other things you suggested were either not possible or not the best option. If that's not the case, then it's because Sorbet had a character flaw that made him believe that reviving Freeza was the best option. Either way, that's what happened. A lot of characters do things for stupid reasons in Dragon Ball. All of your ideas for powering up a soldier are fan fiction. Just because they have limbs that can work for Freeza, that doesn't mean they could boost another fighters strength significantly with that same technology. You're putting an arbitrary battle power out there for a sufficient fighter, but that doesn't mean anything. Maybe the fighter would be overwhelmed by the sheer number of rebels in a way that Freeza wouldn't. Maybe Freeza's presence and ruthlessness (qualities important for an emperor) are something that another fighter wouldn't be able to match even if they were quite strong. Maybe Freeza has administrative capabilities that are important that we don't get a chance to see on screen. If you think these circumstances should be different, then feel free to imagine a situation where they are.

[Mystic Tien]

Gohan damaged Raditz, Nappa,Vegeta, Freeza...

Gohan was stronger than all of them, because of either rage boost or being Oozaru (when he defeated Vegeta).

[Faustus]

It's stated directly in the manga tie-in for this movie that they need Freeza so that he can bring order to the empire that has been left in chaos after his demise. How do you think they expected him to do that other than by using his power? His charm...?

Um... yes? I think you may have missed my initial reply to you on the previous page of this thread, so I'll just quote myself here:

"While I'm not sure, my impression on reading Sorbet's explanation in the first manga chapter was that they needed Freeza for his political acumen, not strength (although that's good, too). I don't know what the term is in the original, or whether the translation is even accurate in the first place, but Tagoma speaks of "ability", not power."

[rereboy]

I'd like to see the full scene before I make a call. Is it possible for someone to get the best of Piccolo in the moment but still be overall significantly weaker than Freeza? I think so. Fans put a lot of emphasis on relative battle powers, but it's clear that Toriyama does not.

It's true that Toriyama doesn't, but because he doesn't, an inconsistency always forms. We either have that guy be stronger than Freeza or we have that guy be much weaker than Freeza and somehow be able to put up a fight with Piccolo.

I don't mean to be rude, but that's how it comes off. Toriyama envisioned the circumstances to be such that where the other things you suggested were either not possible or not the best option. If that's not the case, then it's because Sorbet had a character flaw that made him believe that reviving Freeza was the best option. Either way, that's what happened. A lot of characters do things for stupid reasons in Dragon Ball. All of your ideas for powering up a soldier are fan fiction. Just because they have limbs that can work for Freeza, that doesn't mean they could boost another fighters strength significantly with that same technology. You're putting an arbitrary battle power out there for a sufficient fighter, but that doesn't mean anything. Maybe the fighter would be overwhelmed by the sheer number of rebels in a way that Freeza wouldn't. Maybe Freeza's presence and ruthlessness (qualities important for an emperor) are something that another fighter wouldn't be able to match even if they were quite strong. Maybe Freeza has administrative capabilities that are important that we don't get a chance to see on screen. If you think these circumstances should be different, then feel free to imagine a situation where they are.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it comes off because I never once suggested that I could do a good job writing the movie or that I was superior to Toriyama, and I'm not sure how someone criticizing the plot points of a movie and pointing out logical problems in them somehow means that that someone is saying that he or she is better than the author.

So, you will forgive me if I don't see how you exactly you didn't mean to be rude.

I also can't help but notice that you are basically saying that what the author chose is perfectly fine, not because it's logical, consistent and imaginative, but merely because it's not fan-fiction.

It's stated directly in the manga tie-in for this movie that they need Freeza so that he can bring order to the empire that has been left in chaos after his demise. How do you think they expected him to do that other than by using his power? His charm...?

Um... yes? I think you may have missed my initial reply to you on the previous page of this thread, so I'll just quote myself here:

"While I'm not sure, my impression on reading Sorbet's explanation in the first manga chapter was that they needed Freeza for his political acumen, not strength (although that's good, too). I don't know what the term is in the original, or whether the translation is even accurate in the first place, but Tagoma speaks of "ability", not power."

It's abundantly clear that Freeza rules by fear and force. He is not a diplomat or a well-respected figure. He is a tyrant. It's rather clear that they expected him to fix things by using his fear and power.

[VegettoEX]

"Yeah, no" and "Umm yes" are not acceptable ways to communicate here.

[Faustus]

Sorry.

Regardless, rereboy, clear as it may be to you, I just don't see it. Your objection hinges on a hasty, unnecessary inference that you've made completely independently of the given material. Hey - it could be power, or it could be something else. It's not definitively indicated which, but a charitable reading of Sorbet's exchange with Tagoma - wondering whether Freeza really has enough "ability" to "bring order" to the regime - would seem to point more to the latter.

Besides power, a variety of factors could be going into Freeza making for a competent dictator: he's charismatic; he knows how to inspire fear and genuine loyalty; he can handle the administrative side of things.

Your plot-hole charge requires unwarranted assumptions.

[rereboy]

If anything, the conclusion that Freeza rules by fear and force thanks to his power, is the only possible logical conclusion from the given material. That Freeza somehow rules thanks to anything other than his power finds no support in the given material whatsoever.

Not to mention that it would be out of character for Freeza to rule by anything other than fear and force.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Got an email update from FUNi:

Join us on the red carpet to meet Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' cast and crew!
We’re less than a week away from the World Premiere & Red Carpet Event for Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' on Saturday, April 11th at the Egyptian Theatre in Los Angeles! With appearances from the cast & crew, cosplay gatherings, and even a chance to have your questions answered by the creators!



Fans in the Los Angeles area, you won’t want to miss this once-in-a lifetime event! Join us on the red carpet for a chance to meet the cast and crew, including:



Tadayoshi Yamamuro (Director of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’)
Masako Nozawa (Japanese voice actress ­for Goku)
Sean Schemmel (English voice actor for Goku)
Christopher R. Sabat (English voice actor for Vegeta)
and many more
We’ll also be hosting a Fan Appreciation Event & Gathering prior to the red carpet. Show up in your best Dragon Ball Z cosplay or swag for an hour of contests, trivia, and story-telling hosted by Justin Rojas and Johnny Yong Bosch. We’ll be giving away tons of prizes from our partners at Bandai Namco Games, Funko POP!, Bluefin Toys & Collectibles, and much more.



Bonus for you die-hard fans: The first 100 people who show up to the red carpet in Dragon Ball Z cosplay or merchandise will receive a pair of limited edition Goku & Frieza phone charms – only available in Japan! You’ll also be guaranteed a spot along the red carpet!



Things kick off at 10 am, as follows:



10 am -­ 11 am: Fan Appreciation Event & Gathering

11 am ­- 12 pm: Red Carpet

12 pm ­- 2 pm: Screening of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' (ticket holders: please be prepared to present your ticket)



Not in the Los Angeles area or can’t make it to the event? We’ve got you covered! FUNimation’s very own Justin Rojas will be roaming the red carpet and he wants to answer your questions! Do you have a question for the cast and creators of the film? Post it to Twitter or Facebook using the hashtag #DBZRedCarpet and it could be answered by Masako Nozawa, herself!

So envious right now!

[Blade]

Got an email update from FUNi:

Join us on the red carpet to meet Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' cast and crew!
We’re less than a week away from the World Premiere & Red Carpet Event for Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' on Saturday, April 11th at the Egyptian Theatre in Los Angeles! With appearances from the cast & crew, cosplay gatherings, and even a chance to have your questions answered by the creators!



Fans in the Los Angeles area, you won’t want to miss this once-in-a lifetime event! Join us on the red carpet for a chance to meet the cast and crew, including:



Tadayoshi Yamamuro (Director of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’)
Masako Nozawa (Japanese voice actress ­for Goku)
Sean Schemmel (English voice actor for Goku)
Christopher R. Sabat (English voice actor for Vegeta)
and many more
We’ll also be hosting a Fan Appreciation Event & Gathering prior to the red carpet. Show up in your best Dragon Ball Z cosplay or swag for an hour of contests, trivia, and story-telling hosted by Justin Rojas and Johnny Yong Bosch. We’ll be giving away tons of prizes from our partners at Bandai Namco Games, Funko POP!, Bluefin Toys & Collectibles, and much more.



Bonus for you die-hard fans: The first 100 people who show up to the red carpet in Dragon Ball Z cosplay or merchandise will receive a pair of limited edition Goku & Freeza phone charms – only available in Japan! You’ll also be guaranteed a spot along the red carpet!



Things kick off at 10 am, as follows:



10 am -­ 11 am: Fan Appreciation Event & Gathering

11 am ­- 12 pm: Red Carpet

12 pm ­- 2 pm: Screening of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' (ticket holders: please be prepared to present your ticket)



Not in the Los Angeles area or can’t make it to the event? We’ve got you covered! FUNimation’s very own Justin Rojas will be roaming the red carpet and he wants to answer your questions! Do you have a question for the cast and creators of the film? Post it to Twitter or Facebook using the hashtag #DBZRedCarpet and it could be answered by Masako Nozawa, herself!

So envious right now!

Oh. My. God.

I wish I was in America.

[Chuquita]

Lucky West Coast. Still sad no love for NYC.

[Faustus]

If anything, the conclusion that Freeza rules by fear and force thanks to his power, is the only possible logical conclusion from the given material.

On what basis? The burden is on you to show this. The pertinent information here basically amounts to this:

1) Sorbet revives Freeza in order to restore order to the empire.
2) Four months later, Sishami is strong enough to make Piccolo, who is stronger than Freeza, sweat.

There is no straightforward logical contradiction here that does not require additional assumptions on your part. You have to deliberately contrive a reading by which sheer power is the sole factor involved in holding successful political rule (over an empire as vast and diverse as Freeza's, no less!) in order to validate your objection. Power is always a good tool to have, perhaps even a necessary one for such a task, but in terms of inspiring a true sense of loyalty (e.g. see the Ginyus) and keeping it all together over time? You're gonna need a li'l bit o' somethin' else.

I think you're being awfully uncharitable here.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Suddenly that $130 ticket price I was complaining about the other day seems worth it now

Oh. My. God.

I wish I was in America.

Right? Maybe MangaUK will do something similar? One can hope, right?

[FortuneSSJ]

Gohan damaged Raditz, Nappa,Vegeta, Freeza...

Gohan was stronger than all of them, because of either rage boost or being Oozaru (when he defeated Vegeta).

No..not at all! Only because he gets rage boost doesn't mean he's stronger. Unless he would tranform and beat them in the end, just like SSj Goku did to Freeza and SSJ2 Gohan did to Cell. He didn't beat any of them and what happened against Vegeta was pure luck. Not even a win, more like a Doube KO.

Vegeta vs Beerus is most the recent example, that rage boost doesn't necessary make you stronger than your opponent.

[rereboy]

If anything, the conclusion that Freeza rules by fear and force thanks to his power, is the only possible logical conclusion from the given material.

On what basis? The burden is on you to show this. The pertinent information here basically amounts to this:

1) Sorbet revives Freeza in order to restore order to the empire.
2) Four months later, Sishami is strong enough to make Piccolo, who is stronger than Freeza, sweat.

There is no straightforward logical contradiction here that does not require additional assumptions on your part. You have to deliberately contrive a reading by which sheer power is sole factor involved in holding successful political rule (over an empire as vast and diverse as Freeza's, no less!) in order to validate your objection. Power is always a good tool to have, perhaps even a necessary one for such a task, but in terms of inspiring a true sense of loyalty (e.g. see the Ginyus) and keeping it all together over time? You're gonna need a li'l bit o' somethin' else.

I think you're being awfully uncharitable here.

So, instead of considering it a plothole or a inconsistency, your solution for it is to interpret that Freeza, who was continuously called the strongest in the universe when he was in power, who has always been portrayed as absolutely ruthless, who makes a living out of conquering planets by force and selling them or keeping them for himself, and that destroys entire planets if there's a chance that they even might pose a threat to him in the future, somehow controls and rules his empire thanks not to force and fear due to his power, but perhaps thanks to his administrative skills, or his diplomacy, or the loyalty and love of his subjects whenever he is not killing them on a whim? And that's what his soldiers wanted when they brought him back?

That simply doesn't make any sense or has any support in any Dragon Ball material.

It has always been clear that Freeza rules because he was the strongest by a great margin. He was ruthless, a tyrant and a genocidal killer, but he ruled and his soldiers followed him because he was the strongest and to oppose him just meant death.

[SaiyanZ]

That is glorious