Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Faustus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:39 am

Yo! rereboy,
Okay, I'll try to whittle this down as much as possible.

You say power and fear keep everyone in line, but power and fear alone aren't what maintains allegiances and keeps a galaxy-wide organization cohesive and running smoothly. You say his underlings assume the bulk of this work. But who appoints everybody? Issues orders? Formulates plans? Dispatches soldiers? Fires and hires and promotes? Makes any sort of decision? Freeza! (In fact, Sorbet is shown in the first chapter of the manga adaptation to be dealing with - rather poorly - with precisely these sorts of things in Freeza's stead.) And you say it would be outright out of character for Freeza to take on such tasks? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

I think one possible point of interest from the manga chapter is when, as Sorbet and Tagoma are heading back to HQ after Earth, the latter issues a caveat to the whole Freeza resurrection plan - "But wasn't he a dictator?" - and wonders whether he really has the "ability" to bring everything back under tight rein. Why is it that he doubts whether bringing Freeza back was such a good idea on account of the tyrannical character of his rule, if such is exactly what makes him a valuable leader and is the sole reason why they needed him back in first place? Why does Tagoma, on top of this, refer to "ability", and not to strength?

In view of this, there's plenty good reason to think, instead, that Freeza would be able restore at least some semblance of order simply because, in addition to his power, he's the competent former ruler of the empire (which it is, for all intents and purposes), who has decades of experience leading so large a mass across so wide a space and will no doubt prove capable of re-instituting the requisite rigor and discipline in its ranks using the power at his disposal. Someone with power alone isn't necessarily able to do these things with any success. Power by its lonesome is all fine and dandy, but it has to be used well if there's to be any form of lasting stability: Quelling an insurrection here, an insurrection there ain't gonna cut it in the long run if this power isn't consolidated around a centralized authority figure, like Freeza, who knows how to use his power in effective ways as to, as you say, "inspire fear" and keep the whole structure stable and running in the long term.

Again, had Sorbet or Tagoma or anyone in any way suggested that Freeza's power was the one and only thing that mattered I'd be glad to concede the point - anything, even a throwaway line like, "Is Freeza really that strong?", from Tagoma to Sorbet in their little exchange or really anything to this effect which likewise indicated that strength is what they're really in desperate need of. Also, you seem to be assuming - rather unfairly, might I add - that I'm somehow having to bend myself over backwards to excuse a plot hole that's evidently right there for all to plainly see. But yours was not my first reading, nor, I suspect, was it for many others.

All I see is Sorbet being incompetent and simply needing to bring back his far more able former boss with the "ability" to bring things back to form - nothing more, nothing else. Nowhere, as you would have it, is power made out to be the central issue here. Nowhere does Sorbet say "Gah, we're so weak... But if only Freeza-sama were here!" or even remotely suggest it (in fact, Sorbet vaunts the strength of his soldiers, comparing Tagoma to Zarbon). Believe me when I tell you that I'm not one to try and give clear inconsistencies a pass by means of over-extravagant rationalizations, nor do I have any qualms at all about calling what I think to be a plot hole out for what it is. Cell's nucleus? Plot hole. Everyone remembering Boo in the JSAT special? Plot hole. The number of wishes in Battle of Gods? Plot hole. Bulma's age in the same film? Plot hole. I just don't see it here, taking the information purely at face-value.

EDIT: Also, yes - this is me trying to "whittle things down". Hem. Apologies. :P
Last edited by Faustus on Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:53 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by fexus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:42 am

rereboy wrote: Freeza's personality regarding other people is literally "do as I say or perish".

When he offers a job to Vegeta he is basically threatening him, saying that he could spare Vegeta if he joins him. He did the same thing to Goku on Namek and offered him a job instead of killing him. He also did the same to the Nameks, by telling them to give him the Dragon Ball or else...

He doesn't negotiate and he doesn't do diplomacy, it's either his way or the horrible death way and that is consistently portrayed in the manga/anime.

Therefore, yes, him being very skilled at diplomacy and administrative skills and so on and so forth doesn't fit his personality.
No. Freeza did try giving people other solution besides "do as I say or perish" to get what he wants. You can see that some of his subordinate did like him. They have loyalty towards him. You could especially see this with the Ginyu Force. This is something that mindless overpowering monsters will never have.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:58 am

GokuRules987 wrote:I really hope sorbet kicks ass in this movie, otherwise if hes just going to be another irrelevant plot designed fodder by Toriyama who has no taste in making his characters interesting anymore.
Err, Beerus, Whis, Jaco?

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:14 am

fexus wrote:
No. Freeza did try giving people other solution besides "do as I say or perish" to get what he wants. You can see that some of his subordinate did like him. They have loyalty towards him. You could especially see this with the Ginyu Force. This is something that mindless overpowering monsters will never have.
What did he do for the Ginuys or any subordinate other than allowing them to live, get a position in his private army and follow his orders? What solution did he ever give to anyone besides "follow me or face death"? Nothing is ever shown or implied regarding that.

Not to mention that the subordinates who are shown to be loyal to Freeza are genocidal killers like him who slaughter entire races and planets and enjoy doing so. Those guys being loyal to Freeza only means that they don't mind being his underlings because they get to do what they enjoy under his orders: fight and kill.

The full range of Freeza's negotiating skills as shown in the manga/anime, is "if you do want I want, something horrible won't happen to you".

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Chuquita » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:16 am

Question for those who've seen the movie:

Is Gokû more trolling of Vegeta like in the 08' special, nice to him like in Movie 12, or somewhere in between like in BOG?
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by fexus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:30 am

rereboy wrote:
fexus wrote:
No. Freeza did try giving people other solution besides "do as I say or perish" to get what he wants. You can see that some of his subordinate did like him. They have loyalty towards him. You could especially see this with the Ginyu Force. This is something that mindless overpowering monsters will never have.
What did he do for the Ginuys or any subordinate other than allowing them to live, get a position in his private army and follow his orders? What solution did he ever give to anyone besides "follow me or face death"? Nothing is ever shown or implied regarding that.

Not to mention that the subordinates who are shown to be loyal to Freeza are genocidal killers like him who slaughter entire races and planets and enjoy doing so. Those guys being loyal to Freeza only means that they don't mind being his underlings because they get to do what they enjoy under his orders: fight and kill.

The full range of Freeza's negotiating skills as shown in the manga/anime, is "if you do want I want, something horrible won't happen to you".
Loyalty doesn't work like that. They really like Freeza especially Captain Ginyu. He is really loyal. Following him because he lets them kill would never bring loyalty like that. Even in the new movie it shows this as his underling still want him back.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:48 am

They only want him back because they can't control their conquered territories without his power.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:54 am

fexus wrote:
Loyalty doesn't work like that. They really like Freeza especially Captain Ginyu. He is really loyal. Following him because he lets them kill would never bring loyalty like that. Even in the new movie it shows this as his underling still want him back.
Loyalty doesn't work like that? How many women are fiercely loyal and like their husband even though he beats them every day, never does anything for them and always demands obedience? Plenty. How many people are loyal and like heir dictator/ruler who treats them like crap and who never did anything for them besides letting them live and obeying? Plenty.

Just because his underlings, who happen to also be genocidal killers, have loyalty towards Freeza, it doesn't mean that Freeza won their hearts by being nice to them.

In the manga/anime, Freeza never does anything for people besides letting people live in exchange of them doing what he wants and letting them work for him, nor is he shown to have even the slightest interest in doing anything else. He even kills his own underlings on whims and threatens them with death frequently if they fail (like he did with Zarbon, one of his closest underlings), and even in the manga tie-in for this new movie, Freeza's underlings question if it's really a good idea to bring him back since he is a tyrant.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:They only want him back because they can't control their conquered territories without his power.
Obviously.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by fexus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:05 pm

rereboy wrote: Loyalty doesn't work like that? How many women are fiercely loyal and like their husband even though he beats them every day, never does anything for them and always demands obedience? Plenty. How many people are loyal and like heir dictator/ruler who treats them like crap and who never did anything for them besides letting them live and obeying? Plenty.

Just because his underlings, who happen to also be genocidal killers, have loyalty towards Freeza, it doesn't mean that Freeza won their hearts by being nice to them.

In the manga/anime, Freeza never does anything for people besides letting people live and letting them work for him, nor is he shown to have even the slightest interest in doing it. He even kills his own underlings on whims and threatens them with death frequently if they fail (like he did with Zarbon, one of his closest underlings), and even in the manga tie-in for this new movie, Freeza's underlings question if it's really a good idea to bring him back since he is a tyrant.
Actually how many are there? Because I don't know. Also, how many of those men only beats those women and never give anything else?

I never said that everybody likes him. I'm just showing example that there are people in his army that really likes him. You could never get that with monsters that only knows how to kill.

(Faustus also did a really god job on explaining why Freeza is needed besides his power.)
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:13 pm

Your conclusion was that if they are loyal is because he must do nice things to them, since "that's how loyalty works". The existence of people who are loyal despite not having anything nice done to them completely wrecks that notion, demonstrating how that conclusion is faulty.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by fexus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:19 pm

rereboy wrote:Your conclusion was that if they are loyal is because he must do nice things to them, since "that's how loyalty works". The existence of people who are loyal despite not having anything nice done to them completely wrecks that notion, demonstrating how that conclusion is faulty.
Give me examples. I just can't take your word for it.

Remember people would never just be loyal to people without reason. Imagine that you are walking home, than a criminal stop next to you holding a gun. Are you going to be loyal to him? You would follow what he tell you when he has that gun to your head but I doubt that you would suddenly give your life to protect him from the cops.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:32 pm

The ''Momoiro Clover Z'' cover photo looked like 5 Pans with different hairstyles lol.Image on a sidenote still hyped about this movie coming out! gonna watch it in 4Dx3D!!!!

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Chuquita » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:36 pm

Oh wow, they do all look like Pan (well, maybe the one in pink has a slightly different face).

I'm entertained by the 'cute' variation on Gokû's dougi they have.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Rocketman » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:38 pm

fexus wrote:Remember people would never just be loyal to people without reason. Imagine that you are walking home, than a criminal stop next to you holding a gun. Are you going to be loyal to him? You would follow what he tell you when he has that gun to your head but I doubt that you would suddenly give your life to protect him from the cops.
That does happen sometimes. It's called Stockholm Syndrome.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by fexus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:51 pm

Rocketman wrote:
fexus wrote:Remember people would never just be loyal to people without reason. Imagine that you are walking home, than a criminal stop next to you holding a gun. Are you going to be loyal to him? You would follow what he tell you when he has that gun to your head but I doubt that you would suddenly give your life to protect him from the cops.
That does happen sometimes. It's called Stockholm Syndrome.
So, an exception to the rule doesn't make it false. Not everyone has Stockholm Syndrome but I could be wrong again. So, whatever.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:55 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:Image
I wonder who did the artwork for this?

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by goku262002 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:59 pm

So I'm guessing Maximum The Hormone’s “F” won't be included in the official soundtrack?

Seems odd that they wouldn't include it since it did have such a huge inspiration on this movie.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:04 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:Goku didn't transform into anything, he just lost (absorbed) SSJ God in a movie and continued fighting without even noticing it.
I'm talking about FnF.
He doesn't say that he is saiyng about the present moment, he specifically mentions that "No matter what he does, he ain't gonna be able..." which means that he is speaking about the future as well.
No, he isn't talking about 1 months or 100 years later. He is talking about the current situation. No matter how much he trains, even if he was to use the best method to merge with Vegeta, he won't be able to beat Beerus.
Not only that, but according to Freeza in manga, Planet Vegeta was destroyed 30 years ago from Goku's battle with Freeza on Namek.
That's a plot-hole in the manga then, because it was stated in the manga that Planet Vegeta was destroyed after Goku's birth, and Goku was 25 years old on Namek.
As far as things go, Whis doesn't even seem to know that Goku killed Buu, and if he knew about Buu, he would have mentioned it. What helps is that Old Kai (who had an argument with Beerus) knew Buu, yet Beerus for some reasons didn't.
Again, you are making assupmtions. We don't know what Beerus & Whis know, and we don't know how Rou Kaioshin knows what he knows. Just because they both come from the same era doesn't mean that they know the same things.
When someone is making you feel fear, you'll remember it for your whole life, and will always remember the guy who scared you, as your strongest/scariest enemy. Vegeta doesn't look as a traumatized enough person for me.
What are you talking about? How would Vegeta know that Beerus was stronger than Freeza?
Being it a gag, or not, it still doesn't make any sense. For some scene being "silly" doesn't explain its flaws.
Gags aren't supposed to make sense.
When Vegeta couldn't sense Beerus, but when it was said doesn't matter, WHAT was said does matter.
And what Beerus was talking about was ki sensing, not ki attacks...
Yet, he doesn't even know how his creator looks.
How do you know?
Both him and Whis apparently seemed to know about saiyans, yet Whis for some reasons didn't know about SSJ God, while he is training two of them now. Yet he has a scepter which he never even used... to see what SSJ God is... Well, doesn't make sense to me.
For him to look for the SSGod, he first needs to know what he is, and where to look. He didn't know what he is (a person? a form of one of the remaining Saiyans?), and he didn't know if he existed in the past, or during what era he existed, if he did.
What was the reason for Freeza to transform before Beerus? There were none. If he did it, he would have been vaporized by Beerus.
We have no idea how they met, and how it went with them. You are making assumptions again.
Yes, he was. Because Kei said that the movie ended with Goku's smile. Not only he messed up once again, but he also used other peoples' power once again. He is just a hopeless guy.
Goku smiled because he saved the day without any casualities, not because he was glad that he defeated Freeza with Whis' help.
Almost none of them can be properly explained without making up and imagining things. These are exactly what contradictions are. Something which needs to be explained, being excused by fans, rather than by creators.
I'm not saying that there aren't any inconsistencies, I'm saying that they are not hard to explain, or ignore if they can't be explained. Like those in the manga.
No one in their right mind will supress power level during the fight this low, especially a guy like Piccolo. Trunks did it, but it was before the fight ever began, and he did it to fool grunts. Piccolo had no reasons to do it.
Piccolo did have a reason to do that, he didn't want to kill any of the soldiers.
But Gohan can sense Ki! He should have known how exactly strong was this guy, the moment he appeared! Plus wouldn't it be a better way to show off, to turn into his Mystic form?
Just because he can sense ki doesn't mean he is using the ability all the time. Remember when Kuririn thought that Goku (when he arrived in Namek) surpassed Freeza (1st Form)? Or when Piccolo thought that Cell killed SS Gohan? In both cases, they would have know the answers if they had used ki sensing. It seems that in this case, like in the other cases, Gohan used his eyes instead of his ki sensing.
Are they even legit? There were also comments about Sorbet saying "Everything's going according to the plan" after credit scene.
I don't know, I haven't seen the movie.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Chuquita » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:06 pm

Teleportation scene gets its own track? Nice. X3
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection '

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:Image
I wonder who did the artwork for this?
I really like pink Pan.

I wish we could get these hairstyles in Xenoverse. The current selection is sadly limited.
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