#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

[Faustus]

See, but the series has always been like this, Rocketman. As the story progresses, characters prominently featured alongside Goku in the previous arc get swiftly cast aside, as almost invariably one or two new characters are introduced to share some of the now vacant spotlight with the main character (in this case Beerus and Whis, with Vegeta promoted to a more central role).

This was Kamesennin back at the 22nd, replaced by Tenshinhan. This was Tenshinhan and the earthlings in the Saiyan arc; new to the game were Gohan and Piccolo. This was several characters in the droid arc, replaced by future!Trunks. When Trunks had to leave, we got some fresh blood with the boys and Mr. Satan. Now that Gohan and the brats are demoted, we have Beerus and Whis. This progression is perfectly consistent with how the series has operated thus far.

fadeddreams5, as I noted in my earlier post, characters have been getting "stolen from" from the start. I don't see why Vegeta getting a rage!power-up is especially problematic if everyone can get Super Saiyan after Namek like it's nothing, or Tenshinhan's taiyoken and Krillin's kienzan are doled out to everyone and their grandma the instant they begin to fade into obscurity.

Gohan's treatment as a secondary character here, I repeat and I insist, is no less dignified than, say, Tenshinhan's back in the Saiyan and Cyborg arcs, or Yamcha's since the beginning of time. You can find fault with it, sure, but it's by no means something outrageous by the series' own standards. (Also, whether Gohan specifically gets to keep Super Saiyan 2 (is that even still a thing?) or his Kaioshin power-up doesn't make a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Ultimate or no, he would've rescued Piccolo from Shisami and gotten one-shotted by Freeza just the same.)

Not sure how living your life makes someone a pansy.

Agreed. I think the start of the Boo arc was the first time I actually liked Gohan as a character. I was rooting for him! A damn shame what the rest of the story did with him.

[dbzfan7]

At the start of the Buu saga, he became a pansy and I immediately disliked him, but at least he could still go SSJ2. Nowadays, he most probably can't even use that state either, going by his comment.

Not sure how living your life makes someone a pansy. Especially when once he became an adult, he actually didn't hesitate to fight if he needed to. In fact he really wanted to have a shot at Dabura alone. Compare that to his last showing where he was a total pansy who refused to fight or help anyone while they were being slaughtered, and only seemed to want to fight when he had the advantage.

I meant pansy as in weaker. Or soft, as Vegeta put it.

Obviously I didn't expect him to turn into a stoic badass that walks up to his enemies and says, "Don't you know? You're already dead." But the "lack of training" thing, along with his personality, irritated me enough to not like him at all after that point, even when he acquired the ultimate powers.

I prefer the goofy nerd personality to the quiet polite kid.

[Rocketman]

I don't think it is consistent. Nobody else got their powers taken away upon falling behind.

If it doesn't matter what level he's at, why did they bust him down to Super Saiyan?

[Zenkai]

It's only natural that as new characters are introduced, the older ones are focused on less. You can't focus on every single character all the time.

[Zenkashuu]

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

[fadeddreams5]

I prefer the goofy nerd personality to the quiet polite kid.

I like the quiet polite kid more. I would have preferred him to remain a very reserved individual who's inevitably awkward in HS due to his upbringing, but still much more confident in combat against a threat--exactly like Future Trunks against Frieza. How awesome it would have been to see him surprise everyone with his level of strength as he made Dabura is lil' *****.

But that's just me. =P

fadeddreams5, as I noted in my earlier post, characters have been getting "stolen from" from the start. I don't see why Vegeta getting a rage!power-up is especially problematic if everyone can get Super Saiyan after Namek like it's nothing, or Tenshinhan's taiyoken and Krillin's kienzan are doled out to everyone and their grandma the instant they begin to fade into obscurity.

Gohan's treatment as a secondary character here, I repeat and I insist, is no less dignified than, say, Tenshinhan's back in the Saiyan and Cyborg arcs, or Yamcha's since the beginning of time. You can find fault with it, sure, but it's by no means something outrageous by the series' own standards. (Also, whether Gohan specifically gets to keep Super Saiyan 2 (is that even still a thing?) or his Kaioshin power-up doesn't make a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Ultimate or no, he would've rescued Piccolo from Shisami and gotten one-shotted by Freeza just the same.)

You're justifying bad ideas by saying it's not the first time the series has had them. I hated those other things too (characters getting the specials of other characters, SSJ bargain sales, previously major characters reduced to fodder, etc.). Doesn't mean they should continue following the trend, especially with Gohan who, unlike every other character, has surpassed Goku multiple times and defeated major villains (counting movies here).

[Faustus]

My impression is that Ssj and Ssj2 have more or less melded into one thing, now. Even Vegeta is only referred to as a "really strong Super Saiyan" in BoG.

The simple answer, Rocketman, is that Gohan just looks cooler in his new design when he's a Super Saiyan than otherwise. Whether or not he gets to keep his Ultimate form doesn't matter if his use in the story would remain unchanged either way. Characters are devices, artificial constructs devised for storytelling purposes; whether and how they're used in the story is important, but there's no inherent human dignity to them that ought to be preserved at all costs.

[Zephyr]

I don't think it is consistent. Nobody else got their powers taken away upon falling behind.

It wasn't even a power that was explicitly stated to be permanent. We can make inferences based off of the lines around his eyes for one panel during the epilogue all we want, but it's one of the smallest details from one of the most inconsequential parts of the entire story. GT didn't think it amounted to much, initial script writer for BoG didn't think it amounted to much, and most recently Toriyama didn't seem to think it amounted to much.

I think it's pretty understandable that they're not acknowledging this "mistake", since they're probably not even aware of it. Because it's one of the smallest possible things to notice or adhere to. I'd have preferred them to pay attention to that detail as well, but given the story and author(s) we're talking about, how is anyone actually surprised that they didn't?

[Basaku]

It's only natural that as new characters are introduced, the older ones are focused on less. You can't focus on every single character all the time.

Yet still-new Goten, Trunks & Buu are nowhere to be even seen while old&tired Goku/Vegeta are sole focus.

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

Like father like son

[Dayspring]

Not exactly, more that it's so blatantly obvious it's all for the glory of Goku and not because it's a natural evolution of the story.

I would disagree here. The story has always been about darting back and forth between Goku in the limelight and others being focused on while Goku is en route to the limelight. It's just that post-series has swapped in Vegeta instead of Gohan as the stall-for-Goku side character.

Meanwhile, the loss of "ultimate" is kind of in keeping with what we've seen of Gohan do in the Buu saga. We've seen that he doesn't train if he doesn't need to and that the lack of training makes it harder for him to go SSJ and reach his former strength levels. With "ultimate" being triggered the same way FP-SSJ seemed to work, it kind of makes sense for him to lose it since he never exactly mastered the form to begin with.

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because he doesn't one shot everyone? Because a majority of the focus of the story isn't on him?

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because he doesn't one shot everyone? Because a majority of the focus of the story isn't on him?

Because Trunks called Gohan Yamcha

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because he doesn't one shot everyone? Because a majority of the focus of the story isn't on him?

Because Trunks called Gohan Yamcha

Oh, yeah. That make a whole sense for why Gohan is now the new Yamcha.

[Faustus]

You're justifying bad ideas by saying it's not the first time the series has had them. I hated those other things too (characters getting the specials of other characters, SSJ bargain sales, previously major characters reduced to fodder, etc.). Doesn't mean they should continue following the trend, especially with Gohan who, unlike every other character, has surpassed Goku multiple times and defeated major villains (counting movies here).

Just saw this. If you refer to my earlier posts, you'll note that by no means do I intend to justify anything. The whole point I'm making is that this isn't an isolated issue; you can have a problem with it, fine, but don't pretend this is the first time this sort of thing has happened. Simply put, if my question to you is, "What, in your eyes, particularly makes these new films worse than anything in the series proper?" - then Gohan not getting to share center stage and being reduced to secondary-character status should not be on your list. The way I see it, taking issue with Gohan's treatment here and not equally so with similar instances of sloppy character writing in the rest of Toriyama's canon could be indicative of one of two things at this point: either (1) you're a massive Gohan fan(boy), in which case you're understandably distraught over this particular instance of it, or (2) you're struggling with moving past the status quo of powers established at the end of the series 30 years ago, which left Gohan as the strongest person alive - status quo which you've somehow fixed in your mind over the many years since and are now having trouble readjusting (just to be clear, that was a general "you", not you fadeddreams5).

Saying "I hate it, and I hated it before", as you (you, fadeddreams5) do, is perfectly fine and self-consistent, however.

One last thing: If being Ultimate doesn't alter his role in future films and doesn't contribute to anything in the slightest, if he's far outclassed and no longer going to be the main focus of the story anyway, then the loss of the power-up, in and of itself, doesn't constitute a storytelling flaw. Characters, as such, aren't owed any sort of "in-universe respect" from their author; all that matters when trying to make a critical and unbiased assessment on characterization is whether a given character is used in worthwhile ways. For the record, I do personally find some fault with how Gohan seems to have been used in this new film (he gets to bust out his skills and kick some Shisami ass... buuut then he jobs to Freeza), but in just the same way that I take issue with how Tenshinhan is used in the brief interval in which he appears in the Boo arc, or with how Oob is treated in pretty much all of GT. And I'm saying that this is nothing new, not that it's good or somehow less bad because it has precedent.

To make my point a little clearer: I think Rocketman once noted elsewhere that Gohan could've taken on a kind of coaching role for the boys, like in the JSAT special. I agree. Seeing him job all the time from this point forward is bound to get annoying pretty quick, and that's one good way of keeping him involved without having him be a major player.

[Zenkai]

It's only natural that as new characters are introduced, the older ones are focused on less. You can't focus on every single character all the time.

Yet still-new Goten, Trunks & Buu are nowhere to be even seen while old&tired Goku/Vegeta are sole focus.

They were all major players in the previous arc. Let's put things in perspective; the main protagonists of each arc are as follows:

Saiyan and Frieza Arcs:
Goku
Gohan
Krillin
Piccolo
Vegeta

Android/Cell Arcs:
Goku
Gohan
Vegeta
Trunks
Piccolo

Buu Arc:
Goku
Gohan
Goten
Vegeta
Trunks
Mark

New Films:
Goku
Vegeta
Beerus
Whis

As you can see, only a handful of characters are focused on in detail in each arc. It would take up too much screen time to focus on 15 characters per arc.

Also, films can only focus on so many characters, as they are significantly shorter than a series.

[Rocketman]

It wasn't even a power that was explicitly stated to be permanent. We can make inferences based off of the lines around his eyes for one panel during the epilogue all we want, but it's one of the smallest details from one of the most inconsequential parts of the entire story. GT didn't think it amounted to much

GT actually continues to draw him as Mystic and says that he didn't slack off on his training; it's just that the new villains are that much stronger. Which isn't to praise GT (although I do prefer "he trained and it wasn't enough" over "he doesn't want to fight anymore but we'll keep throwing him in to get killed"), hell, it's not even really about Gohan, it's just I really, really loved the ensemble cast of Dragonball Z, and I really, really hate that everything since then has been Nothing But Goku. Gohan getting completely torn down as a fighter yet still thrown in to job so gokuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu looks better is just the most obvious example.


OH MAN, THE EXALTED TORIYAMA-SAMA RETURNS and he just makes the same goku-sucking shit that everybody mocked in GT. Hot diggity.

[dbzfan7]

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because he doesn't one shot everyone? Because a majority of the focus of the story isn't on him?

I'm guessing from the jobbing role. To essentially be considered a strong, if not one of the strongest allies, and then get beaten easily by the enemy. Pretty much what Yamcha's role was in every Tenkaichi Budokai was. That's my guess.

Personally as of FnF, I'd say he's become Tails. Both having their abilities stripped from them for no real good reason, and then having only a single trait be their entire character, if they get focus at all. For Tails its fixer sue or plot guide. For Gohan it's "I didn't train" since it's the only real running theme for him, followed by more and more regressing or not evolving in any way.

[Faustus]

I really, really loved the ensemble cast of Dragonball Z, and I really, really hate that everything since then has been Nothing But Goku. Gohan getting completely torn down as a fighter yet still thrown in to job so gokuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu looks better is just the most obvious example.

Has it really been nothing but Goku, though? Vegeta's getting plenty of good screen-time too, and pretty much 50% of the central cast remains overwhelmingly stronger than Goku (counting Goku, Vegeta, Beerus and Whis as the 'main four' for this story arc).

Also, I'm just not seeing how this is fundamentally any different from what we got before. I mean, in F we even get the traditional everybody-keeps-the-bad-guy-busy-by-getting-their-sorry-butts-kicked-until-Goku-gets-back-from-his-super-duper-training basic plot structure we'd seen used no less than four times from Piccolo to Freeza in the original. I'd be more inclined to lament that it's just more of the same at this point.

[Saiga]

Vegeta is Goku's handbag. He treats it well, but it's still there to accentuate Goku.

[Faustus]

But how is it different?