#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

[Doctor.]

This film is focusing on more characters than the RRA arc (which focused on Goku alone for most of it) which was one of the best arcs in the series. It doesn't matter how many characters you focus on, it matters how you use the characters you're focusing on. And I'm not seeing how Goku, Vegeta, Beerus and Whis are being misused.

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan is the new Yamcha, now.

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because he doesn't one shot everyone? Because a majority of the focus of the story isn't on him?

I'm guessing from the jobbing role. To essentially be considered a strong, if not one of the strongest allies, and then get beaten easily by the enemy. Pretty much what Yamcha's role was in every Tenkaichi Budokai was. That's my guess.

You might as well consider Goku the new Yamcha as well if were going by that logic, considering he jobbed out to Beerus twice in BOG and even took a step further and outright admitted defeat. And if we take the manga into consideration, Goku jobs to villains constantly. And in some cases multiple times and in some cases never gets his win back. It only gets somewhat better in ROF where he defeats Freeza only to then nearly die. It doesn't matter how strong you are in Dragon Ball, you job out sooner or later. It's par for the course. Gohan is no exception.

[TheGmGoken]

@LordBeerus

I don't think you don't know what jobbing means. Big difference between job out and jobbing. Jobbing is when you lose constantly to make other people look good while you yourself don't look good at all. In fact you look horrible. Job out is when you're taking the L.

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

[dbzfan7]

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because he doesn't one shot everyone? Because a majority of the focus of the story isn't on him?

I'm guessing from the jobbing role. To essentially be considered a strong, if not one of the strongest allies, and then get beaten easily by the enemy. Pretty much what Yamcha's role was in every Tenkaichi Budokai was. That's my guess.

You might as well consider Goku the new Yamcha as well if were going by that logic, considering he jobbed out to Beerus twice in BOG and even took a step further and outright admitted defeat. And if we take the manga into consideration, Goku jobs to villains constantly. And in some cases multiple times and in some cases never gets his win back. It only gets somewhat better in ROF where he defeats Freeza only to then nearly die. It doesn't matter how strong you are in Dragon Ball, you job out sooner or later. It's par for the course. Gohan is no exception.

There's a difference between the two. For Vegeta in Battle of Gods even while failing, he gets a moment to smack around Beerus, even if it did nothing. He also is called a highly skilled warrior. So in the end he's complimented. Goku is called a rare genius and of course gets a great fight with Beerus. Gohan, Piccolo, and the others....they get beaten down and pretty much forgotten like they're nothing. When Goku is ever treated like nothing, he rises up and becomes something. When someone else is treated like nothing....they remain nothing.

@LordBeerus

I don't think you don't know what jobbing means. Big difference between job out and jobbing. Jobbing is when you lose constantly to make other people look good while you yourself don't look good at all. In fact you look horrible. Job out is when you're taking the L.

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

Exactly. There's a difference between the two. Jobbing doesn't always make someone look bad. In Goku's case he always looks good, or rises up to look good later. Vegeta too in a lesser degree as Beerus showed him some respect. Anyone else though gets no respect when they lose, and they just sit in the corner til the next movie, to then lose again when the time comes.

[Zephyr]

GT actually continues to draw him as Mystic and says that he didn't slack off on his training; it's just that the new villains are that much stronger. Which isn't to praise GT (although I do prefer "he trained and it wasn't enough" over "he doesn't want to fight anymore but we'll keep throwing him in to get killed"), hell, it's not even really about Gohan, it's just I really, really loved the ensemble cast of Dragonball Z, and I really, really hate that everything since then has been Nothing But Goku. Gohan getting completely torn down as a fighter yet still thrown in to job so gokuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu looks better is just the most obvious example.


OH MAN, THE EXALTED TORIYAMA-SAMA RETURNS and he just makes the same goku-sucking shit that everybody mocked in GT. Hot diggity.

Fair enough there. But then, that shows that the "Mystic" eyes don't logically entail that he is incapable of becoming Super Saiyan, as far as GT is concerned. Which is roughly what my point was getting at, with GT not really caring about the "eyes = absolutely no Super Saiyan" thing that a lot of people bring up as support for this all being an "inconsistency".

And I get the draw of the ensemble cast, I really like that as well. There is more to the series than just fights though. While Goku may be the "big gun" "winning" the fights, we still have an ensemble cast of characters being themselves and interacting. Which is what people, as far as I can tell, praise Toriyama for over Toei. He knows how to write his character interactions and dialog.

And yeah, I understand that Toriyama's characters aren't incredibly deep or anything, and for some fans, likely yourself included, the fights are the bigger draw of the franchise. Which is fine.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

Goku has a lot of padding to his loses though and just been handed things post SSJ2. Hes never gotten completely overpowered in an unbias way. Goku just "absorbing'" the ki ball to save the Earth felt like protagonist-shielding to me. Losing is how Gohan lost to Super Buu. Goku has always had some sort of safety net to catch him if he tries to tap out. Vegeta just walks away from it.

And I get the draw of the ensemble cast, I really like that as well. There is more to the series than just fights though. While Goku may be the "big gun" "winning" the fights, we still have an ensemble cast of characters being themselves and interacting. Which is what people, as far as I can tell, praise Toriyama for over Toei. He knows how to write his character interactions and dialog.

Which I argue GT did well above anything else. Even if people don't want to admit it, when it was funny, it genuinely was funny.

[Lord Beerus]

There's a difference between the two. For Vegeta in Battle of Gods even while failing, he gets a moment to smack around Beerus, even if it did nothing. He also is called a highly skilled warrior. So in the end he's complimented. Goku is called a rare genius and of course gets a great fight with Beerus. Gohan, Piccolo, and the others....they get beaten down and pretty much forgotten like they're nothing. When Goku is ever treated like nothing, he rises up and becomes something. When someone else is treated like nothing....they remain nothing.

I don't think you don't know what jobbing means. Big difference between job out and jobbing. Jobbing is when you lose constantly to make other people look good while you yourself don't look good at all. In fact you look horrible. Job out is when you're taking the L.

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

Exactly. There's a difference between the two. Jobbing doesn't always make someone look bad. In Goku's case he always looks good, or rises up to look good later. Vegeta too in a lesser degree as Beerus showed him some respect. Anyone else though gets no respect when they lose, and they just sit in the corner til the next movie, to then lose again when the time comes.

It's not as if Gohan was the first person to lose against Beerus to build him up. SSJ3 Goku was the first person to be humiliated by Beerus. So it had already been made quite believable that he could dominate characters stronger than Goku. And how does that constitute to losing one battle constitute to Gohan officially becoming jobber? Following BOG, Gohan stomps Shisami, a character that supposedly is stronger than Kamiccolo. After that happens, Freeza spots Gohan and takes him down with a ki blast. Which is... yeah. But if we're counting GT, then I can see your point.

[jcogginsa]

@LordBeerus

I don't think you don't know what jobbing means. Big difference between job out and jobbing. Jobbing is when you lose constantly to make other people look good while you yourself don't look good at all. In fact you look horrible. Job out is when you're taking the L.

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

There are a couple of times where Yamcha loses and comes off well. The Anime version of the Mummy Fight, and the Fight vs. Kami

[dbzfan7]

There's a difference between the two. For Vegeta in Battle of Gods even while failing, he gets a moment to smack around Beerus, even if it did nothing. He also is called a highly skilled warrior. So in the end he's complimented. Goku is called a rare genius and of course gets a great fight with Beerus. Gohan, Piccolo, and the others....they get beaten down and pretty much forgotten like they're nothing. When Goku is ever treated like nothing, he rises up and becomes something. When someone else is treated like nothing....they remain nothing.

I don't think you don't know what jobbing means. Big difference between job out and jobbing. Jobbing is when you lose constantly to make other people look good while you yourself don't look good at all. In fact you look horrible. Job out is when you're taking the L.

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

Exactly. There's a difference between the two. Jobbing doesn't always make someone look bad. In Goku's case he always looks good, or rises up to look good later. Vegeta too in a lesser degree as Beerus showed him some respect. Anyone else though gets no respect when they lose, and they just sit in the corner til the next movie, to then lose again when the time comes.

It's not as if Gohan was the first person to lose against Beerus to build him up. SSJ3 Goku was the first person to be humiliated by Beerus. So it had already been made quite believable that he could dominate characters stronger than Goku. And how does that constitute to losing one battle constitute to Gohan officially becoming jobber? Following BOG, Gohan stomps Shisami, a character that supposedly is stronger than Kamiccolo. After that happens, Freeza spots Gohan and takes him down with a ki blast. Which is... yeah. But if we're counting GT, then I can see your point.

Goku then gets to bounce back from his defeat and have a good fight. Vegeta gets to be complimented and impresses Beerus...everyone else...nothing. They're losers. Gohan has jobbed since post Super Boo. In FnF he gets his powers stripped from him to a weaker state for no reason, and beats on someone that physically can't harm him. Oh yeah, real impressive. It's like saying Yamcha gets his time to shine by beating up a bunch of thugs on the street. If Gohan fought First Form Freeza in Ultimate state, but then was crushed by 2nd/3rd/Final Form before Goku/Vegeta shows up, then Gohan would have jobbed out, but still went down in a good way. Instead he's shown as garbage and goes down in an instant.

When Goku loses, he has a safety net as mentioned above. When does he ever lose, and then can't save face in any way? He lost to Yamcha when hungry, but beats him up next time. He lost to Muten Roshi, but he almost won too. He lost to General Blue, but only because of his psychic powers, otherwise he would crush him. He lost to Tao Pai Pai, but then bounced back later and humiliates Tao Pai Pai. He lost to Tenshinhan, but only from a fluke. He lost to Tambourine from being exhausted, but later owns him once he's back to normal. He lost to Piccolo Daimao, but then comes back later to own him. He loses to Raditz, but then comes back with Piccolo to win. He lost to Vegeta, but he put up one hell of a fight first. He lost to Ginyu, but he was stronger and lost through trickery. He was being beaten by Freeza, but he still had moments and kept on pushing forward. He lost to 19, but was first owning him before the heart virus weakened him. He lost to Cell, but he put up a great fight before quitting. He was knocked out by Vegeta, but before that he had a even fight with him. He beat Boo but through help. He lost to Beerus, but he bounced back with SSJ God and put up an admirable fight. Loses to Freeza only cause of Sorbet and pretty much already beat Freeza anyways.

Can't say the same about a lot of the others recently who are put down, face loser opponents, or never get a chance to do better/bounce back from failure.

[TheGmGoken]

@LordBeerus

I don't think you don't know what jobbing means. Big difference between job out and jobbing. Jobbing is when you lose constantly to make other people look good while you yourself don't look good at all. In fact you look horrible. Job out is when you're taking the L.

Goku looked good in all of his defeats and didn't come off as a loser. He stop Beerus from destroying Earth. That alone means both Beerus and Goku looked good.

Yamcha however loses many times and comes off looking horrible and stupid.

There are a couple of times where Yamcha loses and comes off well. The Anime version of the Mummy Fight, and the Fight vs. Kami

I said many times. Not all the time. And even in the anime Yamcha came off as a jabrooni.

It's not as if Gohan was the first person to lose against Beerus to build him up. SSJ3 Goku was the first person to be humiliated by Beerus. So it had already been made quite believable that he could dominate characters stronger than Goku. And how does that constitute to losing one battle constitute to Gohan officially becoming jobber? Following BOG, Gohan stomps Shisami, a character that supposedly is stronger than Kamiccolo. After that happens, Freeza spots Gohan and takes him down with a ki blast. Which is... yeah. But if we're counting GT, then I can see your point.

I still don't think you're understanding. Jobbing/being a jobber is constant. Goku doesn't constantly lose badly like he did against Beerus Round 1. That's an extremely rare moment that happens to every main character. The act of jobbing or being a jobber is CONSTANTLY lose to make yourself look worse and the other superior. I never said Gohan was a jobber though. That's someone else.

[Lord Beerus]

When Goku loses, he has a safety net as mentioned above. When does he ever lose, and then can't save face in any way? He lost to Yamcha when hungry, but beats him up next time. He lost to Muten Roshi, but he almost won too. He lost to General Blue, but only because of his psychic powers, otherwise he would crush him. He lost to Tao Pai Pai, but then bounced back later and humiliates Tao Pai Pai. He lost to Tenshinhan, but only from a fluke. He lost to Tambourine from being exhausted, but later owns him once he's back to normal. He lost to Piccolo Daimao, but then comes back later to own him. He loses to Raditz, but then comes back with Piccolo to win. He lost to Vegeta, but he put up one hell of a fight first. He lost to Ginyu, but he was stronger and lost through trickery. He was being beaten by Freeza, but he still had moments and kept on pushing forward. He lost to 19, but was first owning him before the heart virus weakened him. He lost to Cell, but he put up a great fight before quitting. He was knocked out by Vegeta, but before that he had a even fight with him. He beat Boo but through help. He lost to Beerus, but he bounced back with SSJ God and put up an admirable fight. Loses to Freeza only cause of Sorbet and pretty much already beat Freeza anyways.

Well... that's the privilege of being the main character in a shonen franchise, I guess.

But Goku is far from the worst example of a shonen main character being protected by the plot.

Can't say the same about a lot of the others recently who are put down, face loser opponents, or never get a chance to do better/bounce back from failure.

- Gohan bounced from being beaten by Nappa and took on Nappa and Vegeta and played a significant role in defeating Vegeta. He is then beaten by one kick from Recoome but recovers and then kick Goku/Ginyu's ass and then Freeza's ass. He then gets nearly killed by Freeza but comes back to kick Freeza's ass again.
- Krillin got humiliated by Vegeta but later came back and played a significant role in defeating Vegeta. He get's skewered by Freeza but comes back to nearly kill him and in the process cut some of his tail. Krillin nearly gets killed by Guldo but then suddenly does so major damage to Recoome. He then gets floored by Recoome but then recovers and then proceeds to kick Goku/Ginyu's ass along with Gohan.
- Piccolo doesn't do jack against the Saiyans but later comes back to kick Freeza's ass. And he is effortlessly beaten by #17 but later come back to kick #17's ass put up one hell of a fight against him. Piccolo then gets turned into stone but then recovers and cuts Babidi in half
- Tien gets effortlessly defeat by #17 but later comes back and able to hold down Cell
- Goten/Trunks get mauled by Majin Boo but then return to the beat Majin Boo senseless.

[dbzfan7]

When Goku loses, he has a safety net as mentioned above. When does he ever lose, and then can't save face in any way? He lost to Yamcha when hungry, but beats him up next time. He lost to Muten Roshi, but he almost won too. He lost to General Blue, but only because of his psychic powers, otherwise he would crush him. He lost to Tao Pai Pai, but then bounced back later and humiliates Tao Pai Pai. He lost to Tenshinhan, but only from a fluke. He lost to Tambourine from being exhausted, but later owns him once he's back to normal. He lost to Piccolo Daimao, but then comes back later to own him. He loses to Raditz, but then comes back with Piccolo to win. He lost to Vegeta, but he put up one hell of a fight first. He lost to Ginyu, but he was stronger and lost through trickery. He was being beaten by Freeza, but he still had moments and kept on pushing forward. He lost to 19, but was first owning him before the heart virus weakened him. He lost to Cell, but he put up a great fight before quitting. He was knocked out by Vegeta, but before that he had a even fight with him. He beat Boo but through help. He lost to Beerus, but he bounced back with SSJ God and put up an admirable fight. Loses to Freeza only cause of Sorbet and pretty much already beat Freeza anyways.

Well... that's the privilege of being the main character in a shonen franchise, I guess.

But Goku is far from the worst example of a shonen main character being protected by the plot.

Can't say the same about a lot of the others recently who are put down, face loser opponents, or never get a chance to do better/bounce back from failure.

- Gohan bounced from being beaten by Nappa and took on Nappa and Vegeta and played a significant role in defeating Vegeta. He is then beaten by one kick from Recoome but recovers and then kick Goku/Ginyu's ass and then Freeza's ass. He then gets nearly killed by Freeza but comes back to kick Freeza's ass again.
- Krillin got humiliated by Vegeta but later came back and played a significant role in defeating Vegeta. He get's skewered by Freeza but comes back to nearly kill him and in the process cut some of his tail. Krillin nearly gets killed by Guldo but then suddenly does so major damage to Recoome. He then gets floored by Recoome but then recovers and then proceeds to kick Goku/Ginyu's ass along with Gohan.
- Piccolo doesn't do jack against the Saiyans but later comes back to kick Freeza's ass. And he is effortlessly beaten by #17 but later come back to kick #17's ass put up one hell of a fight against him. Piccolo then gets turned into stone but then recovers and cuts Babidi in half
- Tenshinhan gets effortlessly defeat by #17 but later comes back and able to hold down Cell
- Goten/Trunks get mauled by Majin Boo but then return to the beat Majin Boo senseless.

Yes it is, means you always bounce back. I don't ask for everyone to always be able to redeem themselves all the time, but they should progress in some form next time.

I never said no one ever bounces back, recently no one outside the main 4 really bounces back or is ever really thought about. Now a days the only people who matter are Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis. Everyone else is padding, pace breakers, jobbers, and cheerleaders. Unlike the manga where the focus split up and we got significant time with others. Now only 2 people grow, while we discover more about the 2 new characters. Gohan never learns nor do we learn jack shit about him (His major? College? Future?). Krillin is given a new job which we'll never really learn much about, leaving his new life to be more of a tidbit than growth. Piccolo has a soft spot for kids possibly...but as of now that means nothing and is just cute...that's it. Goten and Trunks still go nowhere to this day, though Gotenks seemed to get a little something in Heroes. Everyone else is either around or not.

[Saiga]

But how is it different?

Different from what? From the manga? The manga was nothing like that. Goku being the main character didn't stop others from getting to look good, and I'd be truly surprised if people honestly can't see the difference.

Now, towards the end of the manga, with everyone being ignored so Goku and Vegeta can have the focus, is a bit similar. But that's probably the worst part of the manga, so it's not much of a defense of the movies to say it's similar to the manga's pitfalls.

Yeah, the manga could have been better about how it used its side characters, but the new material is even worse in this regard. It takes the focus further away from everyone that isn't Goku/Vegeta, and I would honestly expect after all this time that they improve things if the flaws from years ago are so obvious.

Mistakes made a decade ago aren't an excuse to repeat them again. Nor to take them further.

[fexus]

In FnF he gets his powers stripped from him to a weaker state for no reason.

I really don't get this? Why did you think he was stripped from his power? With the summary we clearly know that the Z-fighters don't want to kill anybody and thus don't fight at full strength. I think the reason Gohan went SSJ only was so that he wouldn't accidentally kill anybody because most of them were weaker than him. That's why he said that he maybe could turn back to SSJ. The form was brought up for a reason in that context.

[dbzfan7]

In FnF he gets his powers stripped from him to a weaker state for no reason.

I really don't get this? Why did you think he was stripped from his power? With the summary we clearly know that the Z-fighters don't want to kill anybody and thus don't fight at full strength. I think the reason Gohan went SSJ only was so that he wouldn't accidentally kill anybody because most of them were weaker than him. That's why he said that he maybe could turn back to SSJ. The form was brought up for a reason in that context.

If Gohan could go fucking Super Saiyan and beat up a bunch of random bank robbers of earth without killing them, then I highly doubt he'll have a problem. He has no reason to use SSJ over his Ultimate state.

[fadeddreams5]

In FnF he gets his powers stripped from him to a weaker state for no reason.

I really don't get this? Why did you think he was stripped from his power? With the summary we clearly know that the Z-fighters don't want to kill anybody and thus don't fight at full strength. I think the reason Gohan went SSJ only was so that he wouldn't accidentally kill anybody because most of them were weaker than him. That's why he said that he maybe could turn back to SSJ. The form was brought up for a reason in that context.

IIRC, Master Roshi asks Gohan if he's kept up with his training, and he specifically replies that he hasn't but BELIEVES he can go SSJ. In this context, he's implying he's slacked off and lost his powers.

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan slacking off is weird as early FNF reports said he stop being stupid.

. Honestly they did strip everything from Gohan. But he's a happy nerdy father. Wouldn't be the first time Goku and Vegeta took something from him. (Gohan forgetting SSJ2 exist to show how strong Goku and Vegeta are).

I'm more of a Goku fan than Gohan too.

[dbzfan7]

Gohan slacking off is weird as early FNF reports said he stop being stupid.

. Honestly they did strip everything from Gohan. But he's a happy nerdy father. Wouldn't be the first time Goku and Vegeta took something from him. (Gohan forgetting SSJ2 exist to show how strong Goku and Vegeta are).

I'm more of a Goku fan than Gohan too.

The blog said he'd train...and like I thought, he didn't. Cause he's not allowed to learn from mistakes even if training wouldn't make him relevant anyways fighting wise most likely, but would be great for him character wise. He's gotta be useless and stupid to boot.

Considering in GT, Pan seemed care more for Goku than Gohan, we've already had Goku take his child .

[fexus]

In FnF he gets his powers stripped from him to a weaker state for no reason.

I really don't get this? Why did you think he was stripped from his power? With the summary we clearly know that the Z-fighters don't want to kill anybody and thus don't fight at full strength. I think the reason Gohan went SSJ only was so that he wouldn't accidentally kill anybody because most of them were weaker than him. That's why he said that he maybe could turn back to SSJ. The form was brought up for a reason in that context.

If Gohan could go fucking Super Saiyan and beat up a bunch of random bank robbers of earth without killing them, then I highly doubt he'll have a problem. He has no reason to use SSJ over his Ultimate state.

He has. SSJ doesn't let him kill his opponents and still let him fight with his without having him to hold back that much. Also the part where Gohan was asked if he ever kept up with is training. When Gohan answered that he could still go SSJ, he did meant that he lost enough power to make it a little bit hard to fight all those enemies without SSJ. Just gotta have context without trying to say "Boo hoo Gohan lost his powers and was given to Goku and Vegeta."
Again before anyone go crazy, the movie didn't state that in any way that he lost his Mystic form.

[dbzfan7]

If Gohan could go fucking Super Saiyan and beat up a bunch of random bank robbers of earth without killing them, then I highly doubt he'll have a problem. He has no reason to use SSJ over his Ultimate state.

He has. SSJ doesn't let him kill his opponents and still let him fight with his without having him to hold back that much. Also the part where Gohan was asked if he ever kept up with is training. When Gohan answered that he could still go SSJ, he did meant that he lost enough power to make it a little bit hard to fight all those enemies without SSJ. Just gotta have context without trying to say "Boo hoo Gohan lost his powers and was given to Goku and Vegeta."
Again before anyone go crazy, the movie didn't state that in any way that he lost his Mystic form.

Gohan doesn't have a reason. He can control his power fine. He doesn't even need it for mooks that were called weak. Either Shisame is weak, Piccolo got super weak, and Gohan got super weak. Or Shisame is stronger than Freeza/ equal to Piccolo and they didn't need revive Freeza back at all.