Question to the JPN fans and Pro-JPN fans(regarding opnings)

[rereboy]

Maybe it's an age thing? When I say "kids", I mean teenagers, too. (To any teens reading this: you'll understand when you're older.)

I'm 28 and I easily distinguish between kids and teenagers since they are pretty different overall.

Saying that every age group can watch and enjoy a certain show doesn't mean much to me because there's no one physically restraining people from watching and enjoying shows when they don't belong in the demographic focus of the show, so that saying is always a given.

There's only shows with broader demographic focus and shows with narrower demographic focus. And Dragon Ball doesn't have a narrow demographic focus on kids but it also doesn't have a narrow demographic focus on adults or even old teens.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

So to the people think I'm implying that Dragon Ball is a very dark anime, try again. I think Dragon Ball's in the middle, lighthearted and times but dark when shit gets real. Like I said again, it's only the tone and lyrical themes I have a problem with regarding the openings. Why does Dragon Ball has to be one of the few that doesn't get on point? One Piece has some, Bleach has some, Naruto has some, Hokuto No Ken has some(somewhat, but at least they don't sound babyish), and they're all aimed at kids. Please can somebody just answer the question?

Are you asking why the Dragon Ball animes didn't, on occasion, have a darker opening theme to reflect the darker time periods of the series, even if it was relatively lighthearted in the grand scheme of things?

Well, the super-literal answer is...because Toei wanted it that way, and didn't feel like spending the money to create a darker opening theme.

I do believe this answers the question as it was posed.

At least in the Japanese standards, any of these instances can fall into the shonen level of violence that is appropriate for people of all ages. I'd be totally okay with showing it to my little children if I had them.

To me, it still seems like you're just one of those who keep citing "extreme" instances as if they're a big deal to deny Dragon Ball's place in the grand scheme of fiction.

To the first point, it is true that talking about violence in age appropriate properties quickly boils down to "Who are the prudes who would actually take issue with this and why should I give them any special respect?"

As to why I belabor extremes... well, digging to the root of it this just got me thinking again on the age-old question of why we scale the impact of violence in fiction when the acts themselves and the dramatic intent behind them are often roughly the same, otherwise you wouldn't have need of the violence in the first place. Which is an entirely different discussion that Dragon Ball is merely one small part of.

To add onto that, it all goes back to context. Within Dragon Ball, as far as I'm concerned, it's presented in a less serious light than, say, a suspenseful action film. It's like Star Wars. Those films have some pretty gruesome stuff, too, and they don't try to say otherwise. However, within the context of the story and the universe it's set in, it's presented in a more age-appropriate way.

In short; Depending on context, not all decapitations are equal. I'd show my kid Dragon Ball, but I certainly wouldn't show them an ISIS decapitation.

All true. I think the only point I'm trying to make is that people- particularly international viewers who have twice the cultural bridges to cross, so to speak- deserve a little leeway when they look at Dragon Ball and see not, at first glance, the particular stew of cultural constructs that make it the remarkably tonally fluid mix of things that it is, but an oft-violent story with a silly art style... as an oft-violent story with a silly art style.

That's not advocating any kind of re-branding, that's just completing Kei's train of thought and saying if cultural constructs can build something this neat, other cultural constructs can miss the point entirely!

[kei17]

As already stated by other members, EXBadguy is asking the already-answered question again and again and keeps praising people sharing the same opinion without significant statements. What's your point of this thread, EXBadguy? Do you just want to express your hatred against the original version in a twisted way?

Besides that, there's manga that is directed towards kids who are supposed to be younger than shonen demographic (Kodomomuke manga).

Dragon Ball is not a Kodomomuke manga, nor does it focus on the younger end of shonen demographic, so I don't agree with the notion that it's "for kids". Kids can enjoy it just like adults can but overall I would say it's directed more towards young teens.

By Kodomomuke manga, do you mean jidou manga? In Japan, the biggest difference between jidou manga and shounen manga is complexity of story, and its border is not as clear as what you imagine. A lot of jidou manga have plenty of violent or sexual depictions, and some of them are even more explicit than those in so-called shonen manga.


Manga from Coro Coro Comic and Comic Bon Bon which are targeted at elementary school kids:

Spoiler:

The supposed readership of Shonen Jump is set at children from elementary school to junior high school, which partially overlap with that of jidou manga, and Dragon Ball is hardly any more complex, graphic, or explicit than some jidou manga. If you ask me, Dragon Ball sure is for "kids" including lower teens. In fact, there's been tons of DB merchandise targeted at pre-teens such as Atsumare! Goku World.

[sangofe]

Because the series is originally not supposed to be BADASS HARDCORREE DEEBEEZEEE that FUNi made it out to be.

Toei made it into that before FUNi. >.>

How?

[rereboy]

Besides that, there's manga that is directed towards kids who are supposed to be younger than shonen demographic (Kodomomuke manga).

Dragon Ball is not a Kodomomuke manga, nor does it focus on the younger end of shonen demographic, so I don't agree with the notion that it's "for kids". Kids can enjoy it just like adults can but overall I would say it's directed more towards young teens.

By Kodomomuke manga, do you mean jidou manga? In Japan, the biggest difference between jidou manga and shounen manga is complexity of story, and its border is not as clear as what you imagine. A lot of jidou manga have plenty of violent or sexual depictions, and some of them are even more explicit than those in so-called shonen manga.


Manga from Coro Coro Comic and Comic Bon Bon which are targeted at elementary school kids:

Spoiler:

The supposed readership of Shonen Jump is set at children from elementary school to junior high school, which partially overlap with that of jidou manga, and Dragon Ball is hardly any more complex, graphic, or explicit than some jidou manga. If you ask me, Dragon Ball sure is for "kids" including lower teens. In fact, there's been tons of DB merchandise targeted at pre-teens such as Atsumare! Goku World.

From my understanding, Kodomomuke manga is manga directed towards children, being Doraemon a good example. I don't know if Jidou is another way of referring to it.

I never claimed that there aren't cases where the lines between genres get blurred. There are shonens that are almost seinen, seinen that are almost shonen, and you could find the same in every genre and exceptions to every rule.

However, my point is that there are differences between kids and teenagers, and even within the shonen genre we find manga that clearly has an older demographic focus than other shonens (I already gave some examples of some).

In short, I don't see the point in generalizing teenagers and kids by saying basically that they are the same, that they are all kids, when they are clearly not. Even in the same genre, something can be shonen and have a older demographic focus than another shonen.

And Dragon Ball, despite being shonen and despite having changes in tone, overall, doesn't focus on the youngest end of the shonen demographic, nor is a kind of manga that is directed towards kids even younger than shonen demographic.

So, simply saying that DB is for kids because it's shonen, like there's no differences in tone and demographic focus within shonen mangas and like everyone that is under 18 is a kid with no differences between them, is kind of wrong, imo.

To be clear, I don't think that there's anything wrong with shows that are directed towards kids and with people of all ages enjoying them. I enjoy some of them. I just don't agree with putting the same label on everything and people forgetting that there are differences between actual kids and teenagers.

[kei17]

So, simply saying that DB is for kids because it's shonen, like there's no differences in tone and demographic focus within shonen mangas and like everyone that is under 18 is a kid with no differences between them, is kind of wrong, imo.

And it's my contention that the most "hardcore" point in such differences in tone can be in the category of Kodomomuke/Jidou manga which are targeted at pre-teens.

[LuckyCat]

The OP might also want to take Japanese Dragon Ball Kai into its broadcast context. The show airs on Sunday mornings in Japan along with titles such as "Chugging Town". If Kai ran during a later timeslot, it might use OPs at least as "mature" as Toonami, but if they did so now they'd likely alienate the bulk of child/family viewers during its slot.

[Adamant]

I personally consider us lucky. Dragon Ball is one of the few franchises I know of (aside from... Pokémon and Digimon?) that still has theme songs composed specifically for the franchise itself.

Pokemon songs are still written for the anime, though it's been two years since we got a song that wasn't made by some currently popular pop star (including Momoiro Clover Z) in an effort to sell singles to non-Pokemon fans as well. The franchise is so long-running and popular it's very easy to find some big-name star that genuinely likes the franchise and have them do a song.

One Piece still has songs written specifically for it too, doesn't it?

[fadeddreams5]

Because the series is originally not supposed to be BADASS HARDCORREE DEEBEEZEEE that FUNi made it out to be.

Toei made it into that before FUNi. >.>

How?

I answered this a few pages back.

[Theophrastus]

I personally consider us lucky. Dragon Ball is one of the few franchises I know of (aside from... Pokémon and Digimon?) that still has theme songs composed specifically for the franchise itself.

Pokemon songs are still written for the anime, though it's been two years since we got a song that wasn't made by some currently popular pop star (including Momoiro Clover Z) in an effort to sell singles to non-Pokemon fans as well. The franchise is so long-running and popular it's very easy to find some big-name star that genuinely likes the franchise and have them do a song.

One Piece still has songs written specifically for it too, doesn't it?

We Are (and its subsequent variations like the Straw Hat Crew version and the TVXQ cover) and We Go were definitely made specifically for the series. I think Jungle P probably was too.

[Adamant]

I personally consider us lucky. Dragon Ball is one of the few franchises I know of (aside from... Pokémon and Digimon?) that still has theme songs composed specifically for the franchise itself.

Pokemon songs are still written for the anime, though it's been two years since we got a song that wasn't made by some currently popular pop star (including Momoiro Clover Z) in an effort to sell singles to non-Pokemon fans as well. The franchise is so long-running and popular it's very easy to find some big-name star that genuinely likes the franchise and have them do a song.

One Piece still has songs written specifically for it too, doesn't it?

We Are (and its subsequent variations like the Straw Hat Crew version and the TVXQ cover) and We Go were definitely made specifically for the series. I think Jungle P probably was too.

I don't follow the series all that closely at the moment, but I know One Day was specifically written not only for One Piece, but for the episodes it was used in as well.

[EXBadguy]

Are you asking why the Dragon Ball animes didn't, on occasion, have a darker opening theme to reflect the darker time periods of the series, even if it was relatively lighthearted in the grand scheme of things?

Yes. I'm not saying every opening has to be dark, just spice it up sometimes. I wish Toei wasn't that stubborn.

People have been answering the question. I can't imagine what else you're looking for

I'm looking for more than just "It's just shonen" or "It's for kids" nonsense, that's what I keep on seeing here.

You say that all these other shows have opening themes that "get on point," yet people have been showing you examples (in these exact same shows) of light-hearted, peppy opening themes as well. It's what modern Shōnen does. For every theme song in One Piece that's "hardcore" (or whatever it is you're looking for), there's a song like "Crazy Rainbow" that goes for a feel-good, happy vibe.

I NEVER SAID that every opening of other anime have dark and/or on-point openings, did I? I know they have some, I'm just saying that they don't stick to the same lyrical themes for every opening all the time like Dragon Ball does.

I assume you're mainly complaining about "modern" Dragon Ball, so let's look at that. The two Dragon Ball Kai openings themes and (especially) every video game opening since 1997 have been nothing but "Let's show fighting! FIGHT! Punches! Kick that guy!" Sometimes the songs are light-hearted and more generically "Shōnen" ("Dragon Soul," "Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go"), while others are far more aggressive in composition and lyrics ("Kiseki no Honō Yo Moeagare!!," "Super Survivor"). Without even getting into an argument about what the prevailing tone in Dragon Ball is, you can't deny that the songs released over (nearly) the past two decades have collectively covered the entire emotional spectrum of the show. If you can't find a single song that you believe is "on point" with this series (whether it's "happy" or "hardcore" or "dark" or whatever), then I simply don't know what to tell you.

I don't count any of Kageyama's songs as "modern", at least in the 2010 era. I wish Kageyama was back though.

There's never, ever going to be a "Okay, let's focus on the GENOCIDE and GORE" opening theme in a series with a protagonist like Son Goku or Luffy or Naruto. Despite the violence that Freeza causes, it's not prevalent enough to say that it decides the tone of the franchise.

Like I said to the other guy, I'm not asking every opening to have specific themes or lyrics. Plus as for Naruto and One Piece, some of the opening songs involve commemorative themes(One Piece's 13th opening for example), so I'm not just looking for "dark" themes. Maybe Toei should've did that during the second half of the Cell saga.

As for why we occasionally get the pop idols, it's just corporate synergy. There's your reason. It's not hard. No animated series coming out of Japan is exempt from this. It's not even exclusive to Japan. Why do you think every Disney movie nowadays has a licensed pop song instead of an original theme like they used to make? It's an attempt to get as many demographics as possible into your product. One Piece, Bleach, Detective Conan, and other long-running Shōnen series have been running without a break for years and years. Dragon Ball hasn't been coming out with new animation as consistently. Maybe that gives the marketing staff at Toei the idea that they can be more "experimental" with the bands they choose. "Hmm, let's try FLOW. Okay, now let's see what kind of revenue Momoiro Clover Z can bring us." They know that longtime fans will endure a band like that because they love Dragon Ball, and they know that Momoiro Clover Z fans who would otherwise never be interested in Dragon Ball might discover the series. Dragon Ball makes enough money worldwide for Toei to be able to play around with that. Modern marketing. You've got to take the good with the bad.

I'm all for new marketing and shit, but those pop music and idol groups are really pushing it. Toei should've called Asian Kung Fu Generation, that band would be a perfect replacement for Kageyama.

[theoriginalbilis]

You want to know the main reason we only had two openings for DBZ?

Money.

Toei as an animation studio is notorious for going the cost-effective (cheap) route when working on long-running shows. Most of the super popular shonen shows of the 80's/90's got only one or two openings at most. Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball Z, etc. The shows were doing well enough profit-wise. Why spend the extra money on new openings every now and then.

Changing the OP every few episodes didn't really become a thing until the mid-to-late 90's, with shows like Dragon Ball GT or Rurouni Kenshin, etc...

[JulieYBM]

You want to know the main reason we only had two openings for DBZ?

Money.

Toei as an animation studio is notorious for going the cost-effective (cheap) route when working on long-running shows. Most of the super popular shonen shows of the 80's/90's got only one or two openings at most. Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball Z, etc. The shows were doing well enough profit-wise. Why spend the extra money on new openings every now and then.

Changing the OP every few episodes didn't really become a thing until the mid-to-late 90's, with shows like Dragon Ball GT or Rurouni Kenshin, etc...

This argument ignores the new Kageyama songs for each movie, all of which existed only to sell cassettes. If the production committee had wanted to they could have done the same for the TV series, especially considering how many insert songs they did and the numerous changes to the animation over the years.

[theoriginalbilis]

You want to know the main reason we only had two openings for DBZ?

Money.

Toei as an animation studio is notorious for going the cost-effective (cheap) route when working on long-running shows. Most of the super popular shonen shows of the 80's/90's got only one or two openings at most. Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball Z, etc. The shows were doing well enough profit-wise. Why spend the extra money on new openings every now and then.

Changing the OP every few episodes didn't really become a thing until the mid-to-late 90's, with shows like Dragon Ball GT or Rurouni Kenshin, etc...

This argument ignores the new Kageyama songs for each movie, all of which existed only to sell cassettes. If the production committee had wanted to they could have done the same for the TV series, especially considering how many insert songs they did and the numerous changes to the animation over the years.

Good point. I suppose for whatever reason the production just didn't feel it was necessary to put that extra effort into the TV show itself; perhaps to better put those costs into theatrical movies (which serve similar promotional purposes as the TV series) and the occasional insert song (to sell the OSTs, as you put it.)

[Super Sonic]

Don't know if folks would consider this similar, but sometimes folks don't care for when the opening is changed even if it makes sense. For myself, I didn't like it when they changed the opening for Magical Index. Yeah the stuff with Accelerator was over, but the first opening was just so awesome that it changed was kind of a let-down for me.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

Y'know, I'm sure you could say that Evangelion or Zeta Gundam have inappropriate opening themes. But hey, for some reason, people don't bicker about those. Maybe its because they just accept the show for what it is.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Why is it with all of the Dragon Ball opening theme songs, all or most of them, the tone has to be cheery and the lyrics always has to involve lightheartedness, love, and families instead of the opposite?

Because Dragon Ball is a cheery and lighthearted show. Bad things happen, but it all turns out OK in the hand.

Sure, there's that, but it's still excuses. One Piece has almost the exact same tone as Dragon Ball, yet they don't use opening songs in some serious sagas where Dragon Ball does. All. The. Time!

Heck, what about some folks who haven't watch the series before? I think they would be disgusted when they hear a cheery theme while they see Freeza ripping Namekians apart or Cell "eating" people in the street.

Three words: Kaze. Wo. Sagashite. Dragon Ball openings got nothing on One Piece and how sacharine its songs can get And while I'm not offended I really do wonder why do you have such a boner for hardcore stuff that anything else is cheery crap. I understand liking Faulconer. I actually listened to a Faulconer and I liked it, even when the more fast paced music had to be looped for like 5 minutes to fit a DBZ scene. That's okay I would have liked to see what Faulconer music made to fit Kai would be like. But It really irks me that you seem to put Cha La Head Cha La and Makafushigi Adventure, as cheery and unffiting, I really hope you arent offended by what I'm going to say but you really seem to be superficial. CLHC and MA arent "Cheery" they are idealistic and adventurous. They are meant to show that despite the horrible stuff that happens inside the episodes the show is ultimately idealistic and adventurous. I would have cut you some slack if you had said Detekoi Tobikiri Zenkai Power, that song is SUPER Sacharine and extremely unfitting for DBZ. But just because CLHC and MA arent serious and hardcore they are unfitting and childish.

[Attitudefan]

Well, one anime that had a theme composed for it didn't even have singing, it's a techno, dubstep, orchestral mix for the opening theme. It's not necessarily for shonen, but I'd say it is, on the older side of shonen. It's called Brynhildr into the Darkness. The opening is neat because it did what no other anime has done, use a electronic theme for an opening.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That's quite nice! I think its from the author of Elfen Lied I think! I do have to listen and learn of the plot and tone of that series to see if its "Fits".