Saiyan beyond God vs Super Saiyan 4

[saunasolmu]

Saiyan beyond God is a much, much larger multiplier IMO. It makes the user much stronger than Potara fusion does. If character with the same power level were to use these transformations, I think SSJGSS would be stronger.

[Duo]

As I mentioned on this subject in...some other thread, I don know that there is a stable foundation in comparing GT characters to God's, because there is no valuable context for how much power a God form has in relationship to anything else other than much much more.

[Lord Beerus]

There is no real indication of how much stronger Super Saiyan 4 or Super Beyond God make a Saiyan, so there really can be no definitive conclusion of whether Saiyan beyond God is stronger than Super Saiyan 4, or vice-versa.

[fadeddreams5]

In BoG, Goku's limit is SSJ3, yet even in this form, he is one-shotted by Beerus, who is using only a fraction of his power. So are Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Buu. When Goku becomes a SSJG, using a ritual, he is able to fight on par with Beerus, who is now using 70% of his power. SSJG is on another dimension of strength, which Goku not only admits to likely never have been able to attain on his own, but is also implied to be stronger than Gogeta/Vegito when Goku comments that not even fusion would accomplish anything against Beerus. By the end of BoG, Goku absorbs this power into himself, but is too inexperienced to grasp its full force. Thus, when we see him fighting Beerus as a regular SSJ, he's a tad weaker, which is proven by the need to transform back to a SSJG to deflect Beerus' final planet buster ball.

So moving onto FnF, thanks to Goku's training with Whis, he is now able to tap into his FULL SSJG powers at will--without the need of a ritual--by transforming into a regular SSJ. This form is very likely NOT any stronger than a SSJG; it's exactly the same level of power, with the only difference being what Goku gained in his base since he started his training.

When we look at GT, we can presume that it's an alternate reality where Goku never met Beerus. This Goku has simply been training on his own to become as strong as he has at this point in the timeline. When he fights Bebi Vegeta as a SSJ3, he is easily defeated. After becoming a SSJ4, Goku is able to easily stop Super Bebi Vegeta, who's even stronger than his initial form. Unlike SSJG, SSJ4 merely increases the mortal ki of the user to exponential levels. If you all recall, when everyone gave Goku their energy during the SSJG ritual, but there was one saiyan missing, Goku's mortal ki rose to a ridiculous level that'd likely be able to one-shot Buu, but he admitted it wouldn't be enough to stop Beerus, who possesses, again, another (unreachable) dimension of power.

So who's stronger? SSJ4 or SSJGSSJ? The latter is more powerful. Again, Goku implied he could never reach the level of strength he did as a SSJG on his own. SSJ4 is within the mortal realm of attainment; he'd likely still become as strong as a SSJ4 if he trained for a few years on his own before achieving it.

[Bacon Skittles]

Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are immensely more powerful than "Super Saiyan 4"

"Super Saiyan 4" is just a humanoid version of the Golden Oozaru form. Golden Oozaru is simply Super Saiyan while in the Oozaru form. Super Saiyan increases a Saiyan's power by 50x and Oozaru x10.


Base: 1
Oozaru: 10
Golden Oozaru: 500

Super Saiyan: 50
Super Saiyan 2 (x100 base): 100
Super Saiyan 3 (x400 base): 400

So Super Saiyan 3 is just slightly less powerful than Golden Oozaru/"SS4." We see that when Super Saiyan 3 Goku fights Beerus, he's easily defeated with no effort whatsoever. Super Saiyan God Goku can put up a good fight with a 80% powered Beerus. Thus base Super Saiyan God can easily beat "Super Saiyan 4." I imagine that "Super Saiyan 4" Gogeta would either be equal to or less powerful than SSG Goku. So a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, which is X50 SSG power, is immensely more powerful. I'm pretty sure that Goku could defeat Beerus in this form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3 Goku would probably be able to defeat Whis too (if fast enough.)

[Hitiro]

Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are immensely more powerful than "Super Saiyan 4"

"Super Saiyan 4" is just a humanoid version of the Golden Oozaru form. Golden Oozaru is simply Super Saiyan while in the Oozaru form. Super Saiyan increases a Saiyan's power by 50x and Oozaru x10.


Base: 1
Oozaru: 10
Golden Oozaru: 500

Super Saiyan: 50
Super Saiyan 2 (x100 base): 100
Super Saiyan 3 (x400 base): 400

So Super Saiyan 3 is just slightly less powerful than Golden Oozaru/"SS4." We see that when Super Saiyan 3 Goku fights Beerus, he's easily defeated with no effort whatsoever. Super Saiyan God Goku can put up a good fight with a 80% powered Beerus. Thus base Super Saiyan God can easily beat "Super Saiyan 4." I imagine that "Super Saiyan 4" Gogeta would either be equal to or less powerful than SSG Goku. So a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, which is X50 SSG power, is immensely more powerful. I'm pretty sure that Goku could defeat Beerus in this form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3 Goku would probably be able to defeat Whis too (if fast enough.)

You can't really put Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 on equal pegging's. Super Bebi 1 was strong enough to be a match for SSJ3 Goku. Even if we assume that Super Bebi 1 was using SSJ2 then for him to be close to SSJ3 Goku in strength, Base Bebi would have to be 4x stronger than Base Goku. This is ignoring the fact that Super Bebi 1 absorbed the energy from the other Saiyan's making him even stronger still. So the difference is more than just a 4x difference. So if you put SSJ4 Goku and Golden Oozaru Bebi against each other then Bebi would still have an extreme power advantage over Goku.

Goku would have to be something like 10x stronger than his SSJ3 version self for the fight to go the way it did.

[Confidence Matters]

If we're comparing the theoretical Z SSJ4 multiplier from Z's Goku's base form to the multiplier he receives from going Ascended SSJ God, or even regular SSJ God, than the latter crushes Z's SSJ4. Both do. Z's SJJ4's potential is essentially from base x500 (Oozaru = base x10, SSJ Oozaru Oozaru x50) to base x 4000 (SSJ3 x10). It is obvious that SSJ Godhood is far more prominent than that. At least, that is what it feels like. No one knows just how much stronger Beerus is than everyone, and how much Whis is, nor how much SSJ God Goku is than everyone. Hell, no one even knows how much stronger Vegito nor Ultimate Gohan is than Boo saga Gotenks SSJ3. It's all speculation.

So on that note, it is inconclusive t compare Z's theoretical SSJ4 speculated multipliers and SSJGod/ASSJGod multipliers.

HOWEVER

If we're comparing the SSJ4 that appeared in GT, even in its infancy and ignoring the absolutely insane powerups Goku SSJ4 has received via friends & family (twice - against Ape baby & Omega Shenron), then GT Goku SSJ4 is by default is VASTLY stronger than Ascended SSJ God (blue hair whatever).

Reasoning: GT Goku is already SSJ God against Uub in GT. Not only that, he is by default stronger to a degree because he has been training with Uub for a good while now (to what extent, we do not know). Although people will argue GT is not canon, GT is still a continuation of the manga - regardless of canonicity. Proof of continuity: They continue the story by having Goku training Uub, like he said he was going to do at the end of Z. This connects GT to the final chapters of Z, which are connected to the new movies/events that took place during the 10 years after Kid Boo. Uub being in GT automatically makes GT a continuation of all Z events. This is irrefutable proof GT takes place after all Z events. Counter to this: "there are zero mention to the events of ROF, nor BOG or even Yo Goku & Friends Return" - why this falls flat: because both chapters 518 "10 Years After" and 519 "Farewell, Dragon World!" are clearly continuation of all those aforementioned events and NONE make a reference to neither events, despite having a perfect chance to do so (Bulma criticizing Goku for hardly ever keeping in touch), and yet they are still a continuation of those events.

Now, considering this new form is SSJ God Goku x 50, and that would make this new form weaker to a degree than SSJ1 GT Adult Goku. In fact, you can even make the argument that since Goku became a child, he became weaker to a degree, so it is totally safe to say that Kid GT Goku SSJ1 is roughly equal to Ascended SSJ God Goku (blue hair).

And now doing all the multipliers and whatnot, since we can establish this new form of Goku is SSJ God Goku x 50, we can also establish SSJ4 GT Goku is essential from SSJ God x500, to SSJ God x 4000. Which totally demolishes SSJGod x 50 (Goku's blue haired form)

Thus, Ascended SSJ God Goku would not be in the same league as GT SSJ4 Goku.

One possible reason why God Goku going SSJ1 in GT didn't feature blue hair and blue-flame aura - it had been mastered sometime after he acquired it. And now it appears as just regular SSJ1.

[Hitiro]

If we're comparing the theoretical Z SSJ4 multiplier from Z's Goku's base form to the multiplier he receives from going Ascended SSJ God, or even regular SSJ God, than the latter crushes Z's SSJ4. Both do. Z's SJJ4's potential is essentially from base x500 (Oozaru = base x10, SSJ Oozaru Oozaru x50) to base x 4000 (SSJ3 x10). It is obvious that SSJ Godhood is far more prominent than that. At least, that is what it feels like. No one knows just how much stronger Beerus is than everyone, and how much Whis is, nor how much SSJ God Goku is than everyone. Hell, no one even knows how much stronger Vegito nor Ultimate Gohan is than Boo saga Gotenks SSJ3. It's all speculation.

We don't know how much stronger Beerus is compared to everyone but Goku states that not even fusion would be able to beat him. In the GT Perfect Files it pretty much says that SSJ Vegetto is on par with SSJ4 Goku. Whether you take that as the initial SSJ4 Goku from the Bebi fight or the SSJ4 Goku fighting against Omega Shenron. SSJGod Goku and Beerus are above SSJ4.

So on that note, it is inconclusive t compare Z's theoretical SSJ4 speculated multipliers and SSJGod/ASSJGod multipliers.

Even ignoring the new upgrade to SSJ in the new movie. If base Goku absorbed SSJGod into his base form he is already stronger than initial SSJ4 Goku, at the very least. So whatever boost the new upgrade to SSJ gives him is going to be above SSJ4 Goku.

HOWEVER

If we're comparing the SSJ4 that appeared in GT, even in its infancy and ignoring the absolutely insane powerups Goku SSJ4 has received via friends & family (twice - against Ape baby & Omega Shenron), then GT Goku SSJ4 is by default is VASTLY stronger than Ascended SSJ God (blue hair whatever).

Goku did get increases in power during this time. But to say they were insane powerups is honestly silly. Because it would only take Goku a powerup of 4x to beat a character who is destroying him. Because a character 2x stronger than you is the bare minimum for you to be wrecked by them. Even if we assume these were massive power-ups, we don't know where the upgrade to SSJ places him against his SSJ4 counterpart..

Reasoning: GT Goku is already SSJ God against Uub in GT.

This reasoning doesn't work. Because GT Goku doesn't have a blue SSJ form. Therefore GT takes place in a storyline where Goku never got this power up.

Not only that, he is by default stronger to a degree because he has been training with Uub for a good while now (to what extent, we do not know).

I don't think that Goku could increase his strength that much against an opponent that is clearly much weaker than him given the events of BoG. The Saiyan's get massively stronger against opponents that are stronger than themselves. That has always been the case. It would stand to reason that training with Whis would have been a larger increase in strength compared to training with Oob purely because Whis is so strong.

Although people will argue GT is not canon, GT is still a continuation of the manga - regardless of canonicity. Proof of continuity: They continue the story by having Goku training Uub, like he said he was going to do at the end of Z. This connects GT to the final chapters of Z, which are connected to the new movies/events that took place during the 10 years after Kid Boo. Uub being in GT automatically makes GT a continuation of all Z events. This is irrefutable proof GT takes place after all Z events.

This is a fallacy only because the things that take place in BoG and FnF alter the facts of the end of the manga without actually affecting the end of the manga. You can't say that Oob being in GT automatically makes GT a continuation of all Z events because BoG and FnF would be considered Z events. Yet GT doesn't address the blue SSJ upgrade, the fact that Pilaf and the gang are turned into kids, or why Vegeta is behind Goku. The only events GT are a continuation of are the Z events that don't break it's own story.

Counter to this: "there are zero mention to the events of ROF, nor BOG or even Yo Goku & Friends Return" - why this falls flat: because both chapters 518 "10 Years After" and 519 "Farewell, Dragon World!" are clearly continuation of all those aforementioned events and NONE make a reference to neither events, despite having a perfect chance to do so (Bulma criticizing Goku for hardly ever keeping in touch), and yet they are still a continuation of those events.

If you are really going to say that the story makes no references to FnF or BoG in the final chapters then I'm sorry but we can criticize GT on this front too. Because GT is very inconsistent with its plot. I don't know how there would be a set of Dragon Balls that could destroy the planet in plain site and not be discovered by Dende, Mr. Popo, Goku or Oob in the several decades after Piccolo re-fused with Kami. It even destroys the concept of the Dragon Balls as only Dragon Clan Namekians can make them. Piccolo is not of the Dragon Clan any more. After his reincarnation from Piccolo Daimao he becomes a Warrior Namekian. Even Nail confirms this during the Namek arc. That he and Piccolo are the only Warrior Namekian's left. Also the fact that the lookout was destroyed in the fight with Evil(Super) Boo. After the planet was restored these dragon balls would be in the place that they were destroyed. Earth. Because they would have fallen from the lookout. So if you're going to criticize the BoG and FnF movies because they aren't mentioned in the final chapters. When they aren't actually needed to be mentioned. Then I can say the same for GT plot-points.

Now, considering this new form is SSJ God Goku x 50, and that would make this new form weaker to a degree than SSJ1 GT Adult Goku. In fact, you can even make the argument that since Goku became a child, he became weaker to a degree, so it is totally safe to say that Kid GT Goku SSJ1 is roughly equal to Ascended SSJ God Goku (blue hair).

Considering the upgraded SSJ is x50 it would place Goku much higher than initial SSJ4 Goku. Because BoG Goku is already above SSJ Vegetto by the end. Whereas the GT Perfect Files say that GT Goku only caught up with SSJ Vegetto when he became SSJ4.

And now doing all the multipliers and whatnot, since we can establish this new form of Goku is SSJ God Goku x 50, we can also establish SSJ4 GT Goku is essential from SSJ God x500, to SSJ God x 4000. Which totally demolishes SSJGod x 50 (Goku's blue haired form)

Again, you can't use BoG and FnF events whenever you want. It is impossible for GT Goku to be as strong as BoG or FnF Goku. Because if you're going to say that GT Goku is at the level of any of these versions of Goku you would have to correct the problems presented in GT of why Goku doesn't have blue hair when he turns SSJ or why Goku would need SSJ to fight an enemy as strong as Majin Boo. Because if it was BoG Goku, Majin Boo would be nothing to him considering he is more powerful than SSJ Vegetto.

Thus, Ascended SSJ God Goku would not be in the same league as GT SSJ4 Goku.

Going off multipliers only, SSJ4 does have the advantage. But going off actual versions of the character then SSJ4 Goku would be behind FnF Goku with SSJ.

One possible reason why God Goku going SSJ1 in GT didn't feature blue hair and blue-flame aura - it had been mastered sometime after he acquired it. And now it appears as just regular SSJ1.

The reason the form is Blue is because it is tapping into Godly power. Even if you assume that Goku mastered it sometime after the events of FnF it would still maintain the blue glow because that is what is deemed as godly power. Not that I believe that he needed to master it. In all honesty it makes more sense that this is it being mastered as his SSJ form never did this in BoG. Goku had to have mastered it somehow to get SSJ to gain access to godly power. But even if you can say that he mastered it to the point that it was just like regular SSJ. There are still plenty of issues that GT would need to address before you could even tie them into each other. There are plenty of examples above that I have stated.

[Tectorman]

First of all, BoG/RoF IS a different continuity than GT. GT has Goku using SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 for the superior benefits and powers those forms grant over his base form. As of BoG, there is no benefit to going SSJ3, yet we see Goku try to do that against Baby Vegeta. For them to be the same continuity, you're going to have to demonstrate why the transformations would go back to working the previous way.

Having said that, here's how ridiculous the comparison gets if we include all the information from the anime and sources like the GT Perfect Files.

<<<What is up with the auto-correct? It won't let me use Mr. Satan's first name, instead calling it (the H word), and insists on using Tenshinhan over his other name. Why?>>>

(Buuhan gave Goku mere seconds to pick a fusion partner out of a choice between Dende, Hercule, and the unconscious Tien. Goku instead teleported to Vegeta's location. When Buuhan sensed the two of them together, he remarked that they still didn't scare him. He knew Goku was looking for a fusion partner and had no reason to expect Goku to suddenly not want to fuse with this new fighter. So he was expecting to face a hypothetical Gogeta. Not just that, but considering the boys' fused form is capable of a transformation they individually do not possess and Goku is capable of SSJ3, Buuhan would in fact be expecting a hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta. He knows how much of an increase both the fusion dance gives and how much stronger a SSJ3 gets. The only way Buuhan could claim not to be worried about an earring fusion resulting in a stronger warrior than the dance fusion is if he (mistakenly) were operating under the assumption that the two fusions worked the same.

For Buuhan to not be worried about this hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta, he would have to be at least as strong and counting on the fusion wearing out (since he wouldn't know that the earring fusion wasn't temporary), if not outright stronger.)

So how strong is the dance fusion? According to the GT Perfect Files, SSJ4 Gogeta is dozens (at least two twelves) of times stronger than any other SSJ4. Therefore, it's at least 24. Might be higher or even way higher.

Gogeta = >24x Goku
SSJ3 Gogeta = 400x Gogeta
Buuhan = =>= SSJ3 Gogeta
Vegetto = =>= Buuhan
SSJ Vegetto = 50x Vegetto
SSJ3 Vegetto = 8x SSJ Vegetto
SSJG Goku = >1.25x SSJ3 Vegetto

Ergo, SSJG Goku is >>4,800,000x Goku's Buu Saga Base.

So, factoring in how much stronger Goku got in GT and his various family-granted power-ups, how strong is SSJ4?

Most people assume he got 400x stronger, based on his comment that General Rildo was as strong as Majin Buu and then being able to fight evenly in Base. I actually disagree with that assessment, but let's go with it anyway for a moment.

Spoiler:

Yes, Goku's line that General Rildo's power was as great as Majin Buu's, coupled with his ability to fight evenly against Rildo, taken in total isolation and away from any other context, does indeed lead to the conclusion that Goku's GT Base was equivalent to his Buu Saga SSJ3.

So here's the rest of the context:

1) Goku calls General Rildo's power "as great as Majin Buu's". This can be said to be his initial estimate, or "what he first thought".
2) He fights evenly against General Rildo.
3) Goku powers up to SSJ.
4) General Rildo becomes Metal Rildo.
5) Goku notes that Rildo has become "a little bit stronger than [he] first thought".
6) SSJ Goku fights evenly with a fighter whose power he has now characterized as "a little bit stronger than Majin Buu".

In other words, it's Goku's GT SSJ that is equivalent to or a little bit stronger than his Buu Saga SSJ3, not his Base. He got 8x stronger between Z and GT, not 400x.

Can anything corroborate this?

Well, if what I say is the case IS the case, then here's what would've happened:

1) Goku would note that Rildo appeared to have a power equal to Majin Buu's.
2) Being attacked by only a fiftieth of that, Goku would wonder what was going on. Rildo has all this power, but he's not using it. Is it here? Where is it?
3) Goku would then sense that Rildo's power seemed to be tied to the planet's metal.

Is that the case? Did Goku ever make any kind of comment about, say, "catching onto Rildo's control over the metal of the planet"?

Yes. Yes, he did.

GT Goku = 400x Buu Saga Goku
SSJ4 Goku = 4,000x GT Goku

So now the power-ups.

First, his battle against Oozaru Baby Vegeta. They fight, both get knocked out, Baby gets revitalized with the Blutz waves, and Goku's family and friends donate their energy to charge him back up. Considering it's not mentioned that he got even stronger than he was before, and they later make sure to call this sort of thing out when he powers up to fight Syn Shenron, this isn't a power-up. His energy was restored, but only back up to what it was.

Against Syn Shenron, it is confirmed that he'll end up stronger than before. So first we have to determine how much stronger Syn was than Goku, and then how much stronger Beyond Limits Goku was than Syn.

A 2x power advantage will let a stronger fighter absolutely wreck a weaker fighter, but Kaio3 Goku's fight with Vegeta shows that even a mere 33% advantage (24,000 vs 18,000) will result in largely the same beatdown. Further, Goku started his fight with Nova, Ice, and Syn exhausted and hungry. While it's confirmed that Beyond Limits Goku was stronger than his normal self, it's not confirmed that he was at his normal self when he was fighting. So I feel completely comfortable characterizing Syn Shenron's advantage over Goku's normal SSJ4 as a 33% increase.

Beyond Limits Goku appeared to have the same advantage over Syn Shenron that Syn had over his previous level of power, so let's call it another 33% increase.

Syn Shenron = 4/3x SSJ4 Goku
Beyond Limits Goku = 4/3x Syn Shenron

So, Beyond Limits Goku = 2,844,444x Goku's Buu Saga Base.

>>4,800,000 is still way greater than ~=~2,844,444.

SSJG still holds an obscene advantage over SSJ4.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I didn't read any of these posts, but I still think BoG isn't much compared to GT top tiers. I wouldn't put Beers or Whis above Super #17, personally.

[Dayspring]

Rilldo being as strong as Majin Buu isn't all that impressive. Buu's lost much, much more than half of his Buu saga strength and at full power it's implied that SSJ3 Goku could have defeated him. I wouldn't even peg Buu at anywhere near Cell's level after losing his strength. Now tack on 15 (or 20?) years of training to Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But we don't know if Goku's talking about Good Buu, or a different Buu. Personally, I take it to mean Buuhan for various reasons.

Also, why would you have Good Buu below Cell? He did a lot better against Pure Buu than SS2 Vegeta did.

[Dayspring]

But we don't know if Goku's talking about Good Buu, or a different Buu. Personally, I take it to mean Buuhan for various reasons.

Also, why would you have Good Buu below Cell? He did a lot better against Pure Buu than SS2 Vegeta did.

Because he's specifically referring to Buu's current strength. And I saw him doing well against Kid Buu because he's made up of "buu-ness" instead of a humanoid body and also because Kid Buu is bat-shit fucking crazy with no attention span. With the vast majority of his strength going to Skinny Buu, SSJ2 Vegeta should have been more than a match for him. I don't know exactly how weak he is, but I don't see that as being on par with (perfect) Cell.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But Rild was on par or slightly stronger than Gohan in the Super #17 arc, and the GT Perfect Files say Gohan didn't neglect his training, which would mean GT Gohan > Z Gohan, and Z Gohan was stronger than Super Buu, who's much stronger than Good Buu.

Rild >~ GT Gohan > Z Gohan >> Super Buu >>>>>>>>> Good Buu

So Rild is not in Good Buu's tier

[fadeddreams5]

I am pretty sure Goku was referring to Kid Buu--the purest form of Majin Buu--when he fought Rildo. It makes no sense to be referring to Buu fused with someone else. It is possible he meant Mr. Buu though, but in that context, it felt like he was referring to an old adversary/villain he's faced in the past over a random ally who's barely relevant at that point.

[Hitiro]

Does the dialogue not talk like it was a Majin Boo that Goku had personally fought? If that is the case then there are only two Boo's this could be talking about. Fat Boo and Pure Boo. He never fought Mr. Boo so that would rule him out.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Mr. Buu I admit would make the most sense, since that's the only Buu that Pan even knows, but Rild was slightly stronger than Gohan, who's stronger than Super Buu, which would atleast place Rild in like Buutenks/Buuhan tier.

[Tectorman]

In the BoG/RoF continuities, it's becoming questionable as to the state of Gohan's Mystic ability. Does he still have it? He ponders using SSJ; does this mean he lost Mystic or did it just become his more powerful power-up UNTIL he progressed further making SSJ his newest strongest form?

The GT continuity is different but we see him using SSJ here as well. Which throws the status of his Mystic power-up into question. Which throws the status of "GT Gohan > Buu Saga Gohan into question. He didn't neglect his training, but if his improvement due to training doesn't make up the difference of his loss of Mystic (if that's what happened), then he'd ultimately still end up weaker.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Gohan in his base state is drawn with the same features of his Ultimate state, so there's nothing really saying he lost his Ultimate powers.

I also don't see why the creators would say he trained if he were supposed to think he got weaker.

[Confidence Matters]

We don't know how much stronger Beerus is compared to everyone but Goku states that not even fusion would be able to beat him. In the GT Perfect Files it pretty much says that SSJ Vegetto is on par with SSJ4 Goku. Whether you take that as the initial SSJ4 Goku from the Bebi fight or the SSJ4 Goku fighting against Omega Shenron. SSJGod Goku and Beerus are above SSJ4.

GT Perfect Files say that? I thought it was the GT Anime Comic... which was in chinese and never sourced. Can I see an original japanese comic/manga/guide book that says this? I've only seen a chinese variation of that comic, translated by someone to english. So I have to question its legitimacy.

If anyone can get this in its original form, and translated by someone verified to be fluent in both English and Japanese, as well as competent in translating it, then you may have a case with this. Otherwise Z's SSJ Vegito cannot be as strong as SSJ4 Goku from GT.

Goku did get increases in power during this time. But to say they were insane powerups is honestly silly. Because it would only take Goku a powerup of 4x to beat a character who is destroying him. Because a character 2x stronger than you is the bare minimum for you to be wrecked by them. Even if we assume these were massive power-ups, we don't know where the upgrade to SSJ places him against his SSJ4 counterpart..

lolwut. Goku stated he had surpassed far beyond a SSJ4 against Syn Shenron. In fact, I would wager this was the SSJ5, but Toei didn't feel like altering his appearance with yet another transformation.

And even a 1.1x increase at that level SSJ4 Goku was at in GT is ludicrous. Immense. Say you 're earning 10,000 dollars. And you get a 1.1x increase. It's shit. You've gained 1000 dollars extra. But say you're earning 1 quintillion dollars, and you get a 1.1x increase... that is a healthy chunk of change you're earning extra now, a nearly unfathomable amount more than the 1.1x increase from 10,000.

Replace the money with power levels and you start to see my point - Goku with even the tiniest multiplier at SSJ4 gained absolutely insane amounts of power.

This reasoning doesn't work. Because GT Goku doesn't have a blue SSJ form. Therefore GT takes place in a storyline where Goku never got this power up.

The 10 years post-Kid Boo saga isn't over yet. We don't know what goes down after ROF/pre-chapter 518. Maybe a mastered Blue-faired ascended SSJ God is just a normal SSJ1 in aesthetics. An unmastered SSj God is red hair, and an SSJ God SSJ blue hair with the flame. Who knows what Akira cooks up next in the next chapter, he might just keep it super simple and go back to normal while maintaining the godlyhood of power levels or something.

Still though, this is all speculation. We will just have to wait and see.

I don't think that Goku could increase his strength that much against an opponent that is clearly much weaker than him given the events of BoG. The Saiyan's get massively stronger against opponents that are stronger than themselves. That has always been the case. It would stand to reason that training with Whis would have been a larger increase in strength compared to training with Oob purely because Whis is so strong.

Here's the the thing though, Vegeta states Uub LEARNS to fight as he fights his opponent. This can be interpreted as Uub's level skyrockets too to the level of his opponent - this is evident because Uub managed to kick an improved God Goku so fuckin hard, he wobbled his arm. This would mean that they more they trained together, the more Uub learned and gained insane strength, which means God Goku got pushed also fighting with an opponent like that for MANY years. Thus, became stronger - and so did Uub.

This is a fallacy only because the things that take place in BoG and FnF alter the facts of the end of the manga without actually affecting the end of the manga. You can't say that Oob being in GT automatically makes GT a continuation of all Z events because BoG and FnF would be considered Z events. Yet GT doesn't address the blue SSJ upgrade, the fact that Pilaf and the gang are turned into kids, or why Vegeta is behind Goku. The only events GT are a continuation of are the Z events that don't break it's own story.

I don't think that works that way. Just because it "breaks" GT's story, it doesn't mean it cancels the continuation. Plot holes/inconsistencies/discrepancies in Dragon Ball never affect the materials' canon nor continuity. GT is stated officially to be the next chapter of the Z manga.

Example: "Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return" (which was not animated, nor originally written by, nor illustrated by Akira Toriyama...) was stated to be canon by BOG (Battle Of Gods, material which is undeniably canon and within the Z continuity) even though it features a pretty glaring plot hole that has never been officially explained by any head(s) of the series.

That plot hole is the fact that people somehow know/remember Hercule saved them all from Boo. Which cannot be possible since they were wished to never know Boo was because that'd jeopardized Mr. Boo.

This is a clear example where certain manga events break a material's story and that said material is still canon and part of the continuity.

If you are really going to say that the story makes no references to FnF or BoG in the final chapters then I'm sorry but we can criticize GT on this front too.

My point was that if GT isn't canon for not referencing anything from BOG/ROF, then so are both chapters 518 and 519 because they also do not refer BOG/ROF at all.

Because GT is very inconsistent with its plot.

No Dragon Ball material is free of plot holes/discrepancies.

I don't know how there would be a set of Dragon Balls that could destroy the planet in plain site and not be discovered by Dende, Mr. Popo, Goku or Oob in the several decades after Piccolo re-fused with Kami. It even destroys the concept of the Dragon Balls as only Dragon Clan Namekians can make them. Piccolo is not of the Dragon Clan any more. After his reincarnation from Piccolo Daimao he becomes a Warrior Namekian. Even Nail confirms this during the Namek arc. That he and Piccolo are the only Warrior Namekian's left. Also the fact that the lookout was destroyed in the fight with Evil(Super) Boo. After the planet was restored these dragon balls would be in the place that they were destroyed. Earth. Because they would have fallen from the lookout.

All of this is 100% irrelevant.

So if you're going to criticize the BoG and FnF movies because they aren't mentioned in the final chapters. When they aren't actually needed to be mentioned. Then I can say the same for GT plot-points.

Yeah they do need to be mentioned because the MAIN argument about GT's continuity, especially the one you're using right now, is that GT doesn't reference any of the BOG nor ROF events and therefore it isn't in Z's continuity. You just said the blue Ascended SSJ God form not being in GT automatically ruins GT's connection/continuity to Z's manga. And I raised the rebuttal saying the final 2 Z manga chapters don't make any reference to BOG nor ROF events neither, despite having perfect opportunity to do so (when Bulma & Goku speak while Goku trains Goten), yet those final 2 chapters are undisputedly both canon and part of the manga continuity.

And thus, my main point being: there is a universal standard in which we must hold ALL Dragon Ball material, and not just cherry pick to fit our narrative/agenda. The standard in which you hold GT is that in order for it to be a continuity of the Z manga (which it CLEARLY is, as OFFICIALLY stated by the head(s) of the series), it must reference both BOG & ROF. Okay, fine, so we if that standard holds up if we apply that to all other material that claims to be a continuation. Chapters 518 and 519 are a continuation of the events of BOG & ROF... no mention... yet we cannot invalidate both those chapters of being continuations of BOG & ROF.

Thus, that standard is invalid.

Considering the upgraded SSJ is x50 it would place Goku much higher than initial SSJ4 Goku. Because BoG Goku is already above SSJ Vegetto by the end. Whereas the GT Perfect Files say that GT Goku only caught up with SSJ Vegetto when he became SSJ4.

Once again, I request a VALID/LEGIT source that states this, because that chinese comic ain't gonna cut it. So no, Z's SSJ Vegito is nowhere near SSJ4 Goku from GT.

Again, you can't use BoG and FnF events whenever you want. It is impossible for GT Goku to be as strong as BoG or FnF Goku. Because if you're going to say that GT Goku is at the level of any of these versions of Goku you would have to correct the problems presented in GT of why Goku doesn't have blue hair when he turns SSJ or why Goku would need SSJ to fight an enemy as strong as Majin Boo. Because if it was BoG Goku, Majin Boo would be nothing to him considering he is more powerful than SSJ Vegetto.

Plot holes, inconsistencies, whatever. GT isn't free of them. No DB material is. However, since GT is stated to be a continuation of the Z manga, and this is evident because Uub is there, then that means it is. It just simply is.

And lol at Rhild being as strong as Majin Boo. Ledgic was much stronger than Boo, let alone Rhild.

Rhild beat the ever living tar out of Ultimate Gohan, and he wasn't even at full power when he rekt Ultimate Gohan. You may feel like bringing up Gohan got weaker/lost his power up, but nothing states this officially. And it is stated that Gohan never got weaker from the lack of training, he just didn't get as strong a rage boost as he used to when he faced Cell.

So GT Gohan = Ultimate gohan from Boo saga.