Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Birusu16 wrote:
Why or how is it embarrassing? Goku accepted all the help he could get to beat Kid Buu. He took a freebie power-up in order to stop Beerus from destroying the Earth. So why is Vegeta not refusing to beat down a weakened Freeza embarrassing? One instance of Goku refusing help or not taking advantage of a weakness doesn't make him better than Vegeta in that regard. What Vegeta did was smart just like what he did in BoGs (throwing away his pride in order to keep Beerus' temper in check in order to save the planet) was smart . He decided to pounce on Freeza before he could recover seeing as he just saw Goku on the losing end of his battle with Freeza.
Look I'm not getting into another back and forth cat fight. I've had enough of those. Even if I did, I doubt I'd even change your mind or even get you to look at a different perspective anyways.
That's your priority, but you're attempting to paint Goku in a better light because he refused help or refused to take advantage of a weakness in one instance while Vegeta decided to take advantage of a weakness in another. And I'm sorry but that's just flat out wrong considering Goku has on many occasions accepted help or taken advantage of weaknesses if it meant winning the battle and keeping the ones he loves safe. They have both accepted help at times and declined it at other times. They both have their prideful moments and they both have their smart moments.
Birusu16 wrote:
Why or how is it embarrassing? Goku accepted all the help he could get to beat Kid Buu. He took a freebie power-up in order to stop Beerus from destroying the Earth. So why is Vegeta not refusing to beat down a weakened Freeza embarrassing? One instance of Goku refusing help or not taking advantage of a weakness doesn't make him better than Vegeta in that regard. What Vegeta did was smart just like what he did in BoGs (throwing away his pride in order to keep Beerus' temper in check in order to save the planet) was smart . He decided to pounce on Freeza before he could recover seeing as he just saw Goku on the losing end of his battle with Freeza.
Look I'm not getting into another back and forth cat fight. I've had enough of those. Even if I did, I doubt I'd even change your mind or even get you to look at a different perspective anyways.
That's your priority, but you're attempting to paint Goku in a better light because he refused help or refused to take advantage of a weakness in one instance while Vegeta decided to take advantage of a weakness in another. And I'm sorry but that's just flat out wrong considering Goku has on many occasions accepted help or taken advantage of weaknesses if it meant winning the battle and keeping the ones he loves safe. They have both accepted help at times and declined it at other times. They both have their prideful moments and they both have their smart moments.
One isn't better than the other in that regard.
Um no. I'm not really trying to paint Goku in a better light. When Goku accepts help, it's usually when he can't win on his own. I think Vegeta really had something, but I'm personally not fond of the full context of the scene. If you are then good for you, I'm not wrong as that's just my opinion, and you're not wrong as it could mean more to you than it does to me. You're fully entitled to call it the best Vegeta moment ever if you want.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:Um no. I'm not really trying to paint Goku in a better light. When Goku accepts help, it's usually when he can't win on his own. I think Vegeta really had something, but I'm personally not fond of the full context of the scene. If you are then good for you, I'm not wrong as that's just my opinion, and you're not wrong as it could mean more to you than it does to me. You're fully entitled to call it the best Vegeta moment ever if you want.
If not then why even bother bringing up Goku not wanting a senzu bean against Cell? You were trying to use that in order to make it look like Vegeta beating on a weakened Freeza is somehow lessened or embarrassing because of it when Goku has done the exact same thing in the past. Goku has taken advantage of his opponents weakness (he does this very thing in this movie when Freeza starts losing power. Is him continuing to fight him somehow embarassing because he took advantage of this?) and accepted help on numerous occasions throughout the series.
Just because Goku has an instance where he refused help and would rather die doesn't mean he comes off looking better or Vegeta comes off looking worse as they've both had these moments. They've also had moments where they set their ego and pride aside and do what's necessary in order to win.
dbzfan7 wrote:Um no. I'm not really trying to paint Goku in a better light. When Goku accepts help, it's usually when he can't win on his own. I think Vegeta really had something, but I'm personally not fond of the full context of the scene. If you are then good for you, I'm not wrong as that's just my opinion, and you're not wrong as it could mean more to you than it does to me. You're fully entitled to call it the best Vegeta moment ever if you want.
If not then why even bother bringing up Goku not wanting a senzu bean against Cell? You were trying to use that in order to make it look like Vegeta beating on a weakened Freeza is somehow lessened or embarrassing because of it when Goku has done the exact same thing in the past. Goku has taken advantage of his opponents weakness (he does this very thing in this movie when Freeza starts losing power. Is him continuing to fight him somehow embarassing because he took advantage of this?) and accepted help on numerous occasions throughout the series.
Just because Goku has an instance where he refused help and would rather die doesn't mean he comes off looking better or Vegeta comes off looking worse as they've both had these moments. They've also had moments where they set their ego and pride aside and do what's necessary in order to win.
My point was not to make Goku look good. It was just simply for saiyan pride. Like how both he and Goku agreed to not use the earrings. They wanted to fight with their own power and not get an easy potara win. Vegeta himself refused to kill Cell because he wanted to fight Cell at his best, and felt killing Semi Perfect Cell would be meaningless. The challenge excited him. He wanted to fight the Cyborgs because again he wants to fight the best and show he doesn't need Goku to fight them for him. Now he's ok picking up Goku's dirty dish? That doesn't sound very Vegeta to me. I came up with my own theory as to why he'd go this route such as because he wants to either succeed where Goku failed, or be the one to protect those he cares for. Overall I don't feel as satisfied as I feel the warrior's side was ignored. I don't feel Vegeta himself would be very satisfied.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:Um no. I'm not really trying to paint Goku in a better light. When Goku accepts help, it's usually when he can't win on his own. I think Vegeta really had something, but I'm personally not fond of the full context of the scene. If you are then good for you, I'm not wrong as that's just my opinion, and you're not wrong as it could mean more to you than it does to me. You're fully entitled to call it the best Vegeta moment ever if you want.
If not then why even bother bringing up Goku not wanting a senzu bean against Cell? You were trying to use that in order to make it look like Vegeta beating on a weakened Freeza is somehow lessened or embarrassing because of it when Goku has done the exact same thing in the past. Goku has taken advantage of his opponents weakness (he does this very thing in this movie when Freeza starts losing power. Is him continuing to fight him somehow embarassing because he took advantage of this?) and accepted help on numerous occasions throughout the series.
Just because Goku has an instance where he refused help and would rather die doesn't mean he comes off looking better or Vegeta comes off looking worse as they've both had these moments. They've also had moments where they set their ego and pride aside and do what's necessary in order to win.
My point was not to make Goku look good. It was just simply for saiyan pride. Like how both he and Goku agreed to not use the earrings. They wanted to fight with their own power and not get an easy potara win. Vegeta himself refused to kill Cell because he wanted to fight Cell at his best, and felt killing Semi Perfect Cell would be meaningless. The challenge excited him. He wanted to fight the Cyborgs because again he wants to fight the best and show he doesn't need Goku to fight them for him. Now he's ok picking up Goku's dirty dish? That doesn't sound very Vegeta to me. I came up with my own theory as to why he'd go this route such as because he wants to either succeed where Goku failed, or be the one to protect those he cares for. Overall I don't feel as satisfied as I feel the warrior's side was ignored. I don't feel Vegeta himself would be very satisfied.
That's called character development. His saiyan pride is what has nearly gotten so many people killed in the past. This time he was thinking with his brain instead of his obsessive ego and pride just as he did in BoGs where he set both of those aside to try and please Beerus in order to save the planet. Vegeta from the Cell Saga is not the Vegeta from BoGs and Revival of F. Your problem is that you're painting them as if they're one in the same. As if Vegeta has undergone no changes. As if he's still that same Vegeta who will put the planet and everyone on it in jepoarday for the sake of a good fight.
dbzfan7 wrote:My point was not to make Goku look good. It was just simply for saiyan pride. Like how both he and Goku agreed to not use the earrings. They wanted to fight with their own power and not get an easy potara win. Vegeta himself refused to kill Cell because he wanted to fight Cell at his best, and felt killing Semi Perfect Cell would be meaningless. The challenge excited him. He wanted to fight the Cyborgs because again he wants to fight the best and show he doesn't need Goku to fight them for him. Now he's ok picking up Goku's dirty dish? That doesn't sound very Vegeta to me. I came up with my own theory as to why he'd go this route such as because he wants to either succeed where Goku failed, or be the one to protect those he cares for. Overall I don't feel as satisfied as I feel the warrior's side was ignored. I don't feel Vegeta himself would be very satisfied.
That's called character development. He was thinking with his brain instead of his obsessive ego and pride just as he did in BoGs where he set both of those aside to try and please Beerus in order to save the planet. Vegeta from the Cell Saga is not the Vegeta from BoGs and Revival of F. Your problem is that you're painting them as if they're one in the same. As if Vegeta has undergone no changes. As if he's still that same Vegeta who will put the planet and everyone on it in jepoarday for the sake of a good fight.
He's not.
Like I thought. You're not really interested in contrasting viewpoints or discussing another viewpoint. You only wish to be "right". Besides those points I mentioned, I discussed with someone who actually saw the movie in full. He even agreed with me, but also gave some good points that I said Vegeta may have been thinking about. He showed me a different viewpoint on the scene which I could totally see. He also agreed what I said was odd for Vegeta. I already said the scene can be taken a multitude of ways. But no you don't seem to care about that. Just the "I'm wrong, you're right, blah blah blah waste of discussion like I thought" kind of discussion.
Also Vegeta and Goku from saiyan pride and warrior's pride will not team up which they both seemed to agree on, but they'll pick apart foes that are softened for each other. That's very double standard.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:Um no. I'm not really trying to paint Goku in a better light. When Goku accepts help, it's usually when he can't win on his own. I think Vegeta really had something, but I'm personally not fond of the full context of the scene. If you are then good for you, I'm not wrong as that's just my opinion, and you're not wrong as it could mean more to you than it does to me. You're fully entitled to call it the best Vegeta moment ever if you want.
If not then why even bother bringing up Goku not wanting a senzu bean against Cell? You were trying to use that in order to make it look like Vegeta beating on a weakened Freeza is somehow lessened or embarrassing because of it when Goku has done the exact same thing in the past. Goku has taken advantage of his opponents weakness (he does this very thing in this movie when Freeza starts losing power. Is him continuing to fight him somehow embarassing because he took advantage of this?) and accepted help on numerous occasions throughout the series.
Just because Goku has an instance where he refused help and would rather die doesn't mean he comes off looking better or Vegeta comes off looking worse as they've both had these moments. They've also had moments where they set their ego and pride aside and do what's necessary in order to win.
My point was not to make Goku look good. It was just simply for saiyan pride. Like how both he and Goku agreed to not use the earrings. They wanted to fight with their own power and not get an easy potara win. Vegeta himself refused to kill Cell because he wanted to fight Cell at his best, and felt killing Semi Perfect Cell would be meaningless. The challenge excited him. He wanted to fight the Cyborgs because again he wants to fight the best and show he doesn't need Goku to fight them for him. Now he's ok picking up Goku's dirty dish? That doesn't sound very Vegeta to me. I came up with my own theory as to why he'd go this route such as because he wants to either succeed where Goku failed, or be the one to protect those he cares for. Overall I don't feel as satisfied as I feel the warrior's side was ignored. I don't feel Vegeta himself would be very satisfied.
Good theory, mine was he probably wanted to make Freeza feel what the saiyans felt, complete helplessness therefore him wanting to own Freeza so bad that he thought ''the hell with pride and honor, Ima enjoy this'' I liked how AT handled it overall. Not really a cool way to fight but definitely a delicious treat for the Vegeta fans.
Do you guys think that FUNi would be allowed to release RF on home video near same time as Japan? I hope so, I have no faith in MangaUK licensing the film with everyone else and if they do it will probably only be in Scotland
dbzfan7 wrote:
My point was not to make Goku look good. It was just simply for saiyan pride. Like how both he and Goku agreed to not use the earrings. They wanted to fight with their own power and not get an easy potara win. Vegeta himself refused to kill Cell because he wanted to fight Cell at his best, and felt killing Semi Perfect Cell would be meaningless. The challenge excited him. He wanted to fight the Cyborgs because again he wants to fight the best and show he doesn't need Goku to fight them for him. Now he's ok picking up Goku's dirty dish? That doesn't sound very Vegeta to me. I came up with my own theory as to why he'd go this route such as because he wants to either succeed where Goku failed, or be the one to protect those he cares for. Overall I don't feel as satisfied as I feel the warrior's side was ignored. I don't feel Vegeta himself would be very satisfied.
Good theory, mine was he probably wanted to make Freeza feel what the saiyans felt, complete helplessness therefore him wanting to own Freeza so bad that he thought ''the hell with pride and honor, Ima enjoy this'' I liked how AT handled it overall. Not really a cool way to fight but definitely a delicious treat for the Vegeta fans.
My spin on that would be he wanted to for once put Freeza under him, like how Freeza was always above him. So maybe he didn't care about dominating Freeza at his best.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:My point was not to make Goku look good. It was just simply for saiyan pride. Like how both he and Goku agreed to not use the earrings. They wanted to fight with their own power and not get an easy potara win. Vegeta himself refused to kill Cell because he wanted to fight Cell at his best, and felt killing Semi Perfect Cell would be meaningless. The challenge excited him. He wanted to fight the Cyborgs because again he wants to fight the best and show he doesn't need Goku to fight them for him. Now he's ok picking up Goku's dirty dish? That doesn't sound very Vegeta to me. I came up with my own theory as to why he'd go this route such as because he wants to either succeed where Goku failed, or be the one to protect those he cares for. Overall I don't feel as satisfied as I feel the warrior's side was ignored. I don't feel Vegeta himself would be very satisfied.
That's called character development. He was thinking with his brain instead of his obsessive ego and pride just as he did in BoGs where he set both of those aside to try and please Beerus in order to save the planet. Vegeta from the Cell Saga is not the Vegeta from BoGs and Revival of F. Your problem is that you're painting them as if they're one in the same. As if Vegeta has undergone no changes. As if he's still that same Vegeta who will put the planet and everyone on it in jepoarday for the sake of a good fight.
He's not.
Like I thought. You're not really interested in contrasting viewpoints or discussing another viewpoint. You only wish to be "right". Besides those points I mentioned, I discussed with someone who actually saw the movie in full. He even agreed with me, but also gave some good points that I said Vegeta may have been thinking about. I already said the scene can be taken a multitude of ways. But no you don't seem to care about that. Just the "I'm wrong, you're right, blah blah blah waste of discussion like I thought" kind of discussion.
Also Vegeta and Goku from saiyan pride and warrior's pride will not team up which they both seemed to agree on, but they'll pick apart foes that are softened for each other. That's very double standard.
If I only wished to be right then I wouldn't still be sitting here debating with you right now. All you seem to want to talk about is Vegeta's obsessive ego and pride without looking at the facts that he's not the same Vegeta who constantly put the planet and everyone on it in jepoardy for the sake of a good fight. That was demonstrably shown in BoGs.
As for your second point, do you think that might be because Vegeta witnessed Goku on the losing end against Freeza? Did you ever stop to think that Vegeta might be thinking that if I let this guy get back to full power then I might be screwed? And what happened at the end of the movie? More character development as they learned their lesson as both agreed such a thing would never happen again.
You accuse me of refusing to look at a different viewpoint yet you yourself are doing the exact same thing.
Birusu16 wrote:If I only wished to be right then I wouldn't still be sitting here debating with you right now. All you seem to want to talk about is Vegeta's obsessive ego and pride without looking at the facts that he's not the same Vegeta who constantly put the planet and everyone on it in jepoardy for the sake of a good fight. That was demonstrably shown in BoGs.
As for your second point, do you think that might be because Vegeta witnessed Goku on the losing end against Freeza? Did you ever stop to think that Vegeta might be thinking that if I let this guy get back to full power then I might be screwed? And what happened at the end of the movie? More character development as they learned their lesson as both agreed such a thing would never happen again.
He and Goku share that same feeling though. It's not just Vegeta. He and Goku both do this constantly. Neither has grown out of it. This is something even Beerus and Whis bring up as they refuse to team up. They both share a warriors pride of pushing themselves and trying to be the best.
Vegeta doesn't care about that. He's all about one upping Goku. He ain't doing that while picking up Goku's prey. They still to this day try to out do each other. If he really wanted to show his stuff, and since he's supposed to be Goku's equal, he woulda fought Freeza at his best and won. He'd then have outdid Goku, which he even mentions in BOG as that is something he still tries to do. And if he was really trying to be careful with Freeza, he'd have one shotted him. Freeza was so weak he couldn't hurt Goku no more after their fight ended. Vegeta coulda one shotted Freeza then and there if he wanted to be careful.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Birusu16 wrote:If I only wished to be right then I wouldn't still be sitting here debating with you right now. All you seem to want to talk about is Vegeta's obsessive ego and pride without looking at the facts that he's not the same Vegeta who constantly put the planet and everyone on it in jepoardy for the sake of a good fight. That was demonstrably shown in BoGs.
As for your second point, do you think that might be because Vegeta witnessed Goku on the losing end against Freeza? Did you ever stop to think that Vegeta might be thinking that if I let this guy get back to full power then I might be screwed? And what happened at the end of the movie? More character development as they learned their lesson as both agreed such a thing would never happen again.
He and Goku share that same feeling though. It's not just Vegeta. He and Goku both do this constantly. Neither has grown out of it. This is something even Beerus and Whis bring up as they refuse to team up. They both share a warriors pride of pushing themselves and trying to be the best.
Vegeta doesn't care about that. He's all about one upping Goku. He ain't doing that while picking up Goku's prey. They still to this day try to out do each other. If he really wanted to show his stuff, and since he's supposed to be Goku's equal, he woulda fought Freeza at his best and won. He'd then have outdid Goku, which he even mentions in BOG as that is something he still tries to do. And if he was really trying to be careful with Freeza, he'd have one shotted him. Freeza was so weak he couldn't hurt Goku no more after their fight ended. Vegeta coulda one shotted Freeza then and there if he wanted to be careful.
1. Yes they do, but it's certainly not to the degree that it was in the past, which was my whole point. Character development.
2. And you know he doesn't care about that how? Can you read minds? Do you know what's going on in his head? You're sitting here presenting this speculation as if it's a fact while simultaneously ignoring all the evidence pointing to how much Vegeta has changed and that he isn't the egocentric and extremely prideful saiyan he used to be. Sure he's still prideful, but not anywhere near as much as he used to be. That was shown when he admitted Goku was the best. That was shown when he tossed his pride away in order to save the planet and the people on it from Beerus, which Beerus himself comments on. That was shown when he let Goku become the SSJG. Do you really think the Vegeta from earlier points in the series would've done any of this?
All you seem to want to do is look at how Vegeta used to be and apply those same fanatical traits to him now despite numerous examples showing how much he's changed. Is he prideful? Yes. Does he have a big ego? Yes. Are they anywhere near the extremes that they were in the Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android Saga, etc.? No.
Birusu16 wrote:If I only wished to be right then I wouldn't still be sitting here debating with you right now. All you seem to want to talk about is Vegeta's obsessive ego and pride without looking at the facts that he's not the same Vegeta who constantly put the planet and everyone on it in jepoardy for the sake of a good fight. That was demonstrably shown in BoGs.
As for your second point, do you think that might be because Vegeta witnessed Goku on the losing end against Freeza? Did you ever stop to think that Vegeta might be thinking that if I let this guy get back to full power then I might be screwed? And what happened at the end of the movie? More character development as they learned their lesson as both agreed such a thing would never happen again.
He and Goku share that same feeling though. It's not just Vegeta. He and Goku both do this constantly. Neither has grown out of it. This is something even Beerus and Whis bring up as they refuse to team up. They both share a warriors pride of pushing themselves and trying to be the best.
Vegeta doesn't care about that. He's all about one upping Goku. He ain't doing that while picking up Goku's prey. They still to this day try to out do each other. If he really wanted to show his stuff, and since he's supposed to be Goku's equal, he woulda fought Freeza at his best and won. He'd then have outdid Goku, which he even mentions in BOG as that is something he still tries to do. And if he was really trying to be careful with Freeza, he'd have one shotted him. Freeza was so weak he couldn't hurt Goku no more after their fight ended. Vegeta coulda one shotted Freeza then and there if he wanted to be careful.
1. Yes they do, but it's certainly not to the degree that it was in the past, which was my whole point. Character development.
2. And you know he doesn't care about that how? Can you read minds? Do you know what's going on in his head? You're sitting here presenting this speculation as if it's a fact while simultaneously ignoring all the evidence pointing to how much Vegeta has changed and that he isn't the egocentric and extremely prideful saiyan he used to be. Sure he's still prideful, but not anywhere near as much as he used to be. That was shown when he admitted Goku was the best. That was shown when he tossed his pride away in order to save the planet and the people on it from Beerus, which Beerus himself comments on.
All you seem to want to do is look at how Vegeta used to be and apply those same fanatical traits to him now despite numerous examples showing how much he's changed. Is he prideful? Yes. Does he have a big ego? Yes. Are they anywhere near the extremes that they were in the Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android Saga, etc.? No.
They did it again though...if they teamed up Freeza wouldn't have blown up earth...so sorry but I disagree. If they really got passed pride and earth coming first, they'd have done that.
Has nothing to do with my opinion. Which you keep trying to presume is wrong. Also he still went on about being better than Goku via rage boost. So he's still there. He's as prideful as ever, but he has a better heart now. His pride didn't change. His use of logic and reason did.
I'll take my conversation with someone who saw the movie, and agree'd with my opinion while explaining why he felt the scene worked for him, over the clear bias for Vegeta here that tosses away any faults he had. Don't give me that I hate Vegeta crap though...seriously don't.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
"Vegeta's beatdown against Freeza is one of the most memorable moments from the entire franchise."
I really do have to wonder what one's opinion on the quality of the franchise is if they think that
Spoiler:
a fresh Vegeta beating on an already-exhausted Freeza
is one of said franchise's most memorable moments.
Agreed. Vegeta kicking the shit out of Freeza sounds awesome on paper, and apparently looks fantastic in the animation. However that context absolutely kills the moment for me. It makes the fight lame. If Vegeta realized he was scared, but wanted to prove he could still beat a 100% Freeza, then the moment would be all the much sweeter and epic. They could also split that last senzu bean as that did work on Namek, and then have Vegeta fight Freeza at his best. Instead he beats up on a tired Freeza who could no longer hurt Goku beforehand, which pretty much meant Vegeta had pretty much had gotten spoon fed a win. Honestly I'd normally think Vegeta would rather not bother as a spoonfed victory doesn't make him superior. Kinda like how Goku refused a senzu while he was fighting Cell. He would rather die than win like that.
I do like stomp fights, but only when it's a stomp when everyone is at their best. Gohan vs Cell being the prime example as that's a stomp, but Cell really couldn't do shit even at his best. Freeza though could have done way better. I just can't imagine Vegeta going through with this. It feels so....not Vegeta. Though I guess he has done this before Ala the Ginyu Force, but even so it feels so lame. Like he really should have had an epic final battle, but instead took the bronze medal fight instead.
Though hey some people are really happy with this, and that's fine with them. Honestly I'd feel kinda sour if I was the big fan. I'd want a worthy final battle. I'd want a bold statement. Instead I see a coyote eating up the bones that the wolverine had left behind.
honestly you are obsessed with vegeta Being a hater is bored and tired
why both attack Vegeta fans? His own signature is an attack to vegeta.
heck, you are obsessed with Vegeta, is always looking for a post to discuss the character, If people enjoy moments of Vegeta what is the problem?
Goku , Vegeta and Piccolo are the best characters... I'll never understand who is dedicated to hate any of these three
Favorite Character: Vegeta Seconds favorites caracteres:Goku , Piccolo Previously I like: Kid Gohan I do not like: Adult Gohan I hope more: Trunks and Goten I claim for: A girlfriend and a happy life for Yamcha. Women SSJ Hate: Send all women to take care of children, including A18. Need more of: Ten Sin Han
dbzfan7 wrote:Agreed. Vegeta kicking the shit out of Freeza sounds awesome on paper, and apparently looks fantastic in the animation. However that context absolutely kills the moment for me. It makes the fight lame. If Vegeta realized he was scared, but wanted to prove he could still beat a 100% Freeza, then the moment would be all the much sweeter and epic. They could also split that last senzu bean as that did work on Namek, and then have Vegeta fight Freeza at his best. Instead he beats up on a tired Freeza who could no longer hurt Goku beforehand, which pretty much meant Vegeta had pretty much had gotten spoon fed a win. Honestly I'd normally think Vegeta would rather not bother as a spoonfed victory doesn't make him superior. Kinda like how Goku refused a senzu while he was fighting Cell. He would rather die than win like that.
I do like stomp fights, but only when it's a stomp when everyone is at their best. Gohan vs Cell being the prime example as that's a stomp, but Cell really couldn't do shit even at his best. Freeza though could have done way better. I just can't imagine Vegeta going through with this. It feels so....not Vegeta. Though I guess he has done this before Ala the Ginyu Force, but even so it feels so lame. Like he really should have had an epic final battle, but instead took the bronze medal fight instead.
Though hey some people are really happy with this, and that's fine with them. Honestly I'd feel kinda sour if I was the big fan. I'd want a worthy final battle. I'd want a bold statement. Instead I see a coyote eating up the bones that the wolverine had left behind.
honestly you are obsessed with vegeta Being a hater is bored and tired
why both attack Vegeta fans? His own signature is an attack to vegeta.
heck, you are obsessed with Vegeta, is always looking for a post to discuss the character, If people enjoy moments of Vegeta what is the problem?
Goku , Vegeta and Piccolo are the best characters... I'll never understand who is dedicated to hate any of these three
I'm not even doing that. Criticism is not hate. If anything Vegeta enthusiast's are being way too uptight. I do not hate Vegeta. I like Vegeta. He has cool moments. He has cool speeches. I met his japanese voice actor twice. Oh yeah. I really hate Vegeta.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:They did it again though...if they teamed up Freeza wouldn't have blown up earth...so sorry but I disagree. If they really got passed pride and earth coming first, they'd have done that.
Has nothing to do with my opinion. Which you keep trying to presume is wrong. Also he still went on about being better than Goku via rage boost. So he's still there. He's as prideful as ever, but he has a better heart now. His pride didn't change. His use of logic and reason did.
I'll take my conversation with someone who saw the movie, and agree'd with my opinion while explaining why he felt the scene worked for him, over the clear bias for Vegeta here that tosses away any faults he had. Don't give me that I hate Vegeta crap though...seriously don't.
1. So we're just going to ignore Vegeta tossing his pride away in BoGs in order to please Beerus? We're just going to ignore him letting Goku become the SSJG instead of himself? You really do like to ignore any evidence that's contrary to your argument.
2. And if you read my post then you'd see where I said he still has his pride, but it's certainly not anywhere near the extremes that it used to be. Or are you going to sit here and say he'd let himself be taken over by an evil wizard again just to be equal to Goku? Because that's how excessive his pride was back in the early Buu saga.
3. And yet you accuse me of refusing to see a different point of view. It's your way or the high way. I present a perfectly sound and logical case for why Vegeta may have pounced on a weakened Freeza and you write it off and simply say nope it was just because he wanted to one-up Goku despite have absolutely no proof of such. Funny how you call me out for bias for Vegeta when it's clear as day you have heavy bias against him. You refuse to see any of his good traits just as much as you refuse to see how much he's improved in terms of his bad traits. I could really care less how much you deny it.
Last edited by Birusu16 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dbzfan7 wrote:They did it again though...if they teamed up Freeza wouldn't have blown up earth...so sorry but I disagree. If they really got passed pride and earth coming first, they'd have done that.
Has nothing to do with my opinion. Which you keep trying to presume is wrong. Also he still went on about being better than Goku via rage boost. So he's still there. He's as prideful as ever, but he has a better heart now. His pride didn't change. His use of logic and reason did.
I'll take my conversation with someone who saw the movie, and agree'd with my opinion while explaining why he felt the scene worked for him, over the clear bias for Vegeta here that tosses away any faults he had. Don't give me that I hate Vegeta crap though...seriously don't.
1. So we're just going to ignore Vegeta tossing his pride away in BoGs in order to please Beerus? We're just going to ignore him letting Goku become the SSJG instead of himself? You really do like to ignore any evidence that's contrary to your argument.
2. And if you read my post then you'd see where I said he still has his pride, but it's certainly not anywhere near the extremes that it used to be.
3. And yet you accuse me of refusing to see a different point of view. Funny how you call me out for bias for Vegeta when it's clear as day you have heavy bias against him. I could really care less how much you deny it.
Like I said, he didn't lose pride. He gained common sense and thoughtful thinking.
He still has as much pride as ever in my opinion. You're not interested in anything I say, only being right.
Oh yeah...so much bias that I went to see Ryo Horikawa TWICE. Oh yeah. I really hate Vegeta. You got me. I just wanted to go see his Japanese Seiyuu twice to say Vegeta sucks balls...yep.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:
I really do have to wonder what one's opinion on the quality of the franchise is if they think that
Spoiler:
a fresh Vegeta beating on an already-exhausted Freeza
is one of said franchise's most memorable moments.
Agreed. Vegeta kicking the shit out of Freeza sounds awesome on paper, and apparently looks fantastic in the animation. However that context absolutely kills the moment for me. It makes the fight lame. If Vegeta realized he was scared, but wanted to prove he could still beat a 100% Freeza, then the moment would be all the much sweeter and epic. They could also split that last senzu bean as that did work on Namek, and then have Vegeta fight Freeza at his best. Instead he beats up on a tired Freeza who could no longer hurt Goku beforehand, which pretty much meant Vegeta had pretty much had gotten spoon fed a win. Honestly I'd normally think Vegeta would rather not bother as a spoonfed victory doesn't make him superior. Kinda like how Goku refused a senzu while he was fighting Cell. He would rather die than win like that.
I do like stomp fights, but only when it's a stomp when everyone is at their best. Gohan vs Cell being the prime example as that's a stomp, but Cell really couldn't do shit even at his best. Freeza though could have done way better. I just can't imagine Vegeta going through with this. It feels so....not Vegeta. Though I guess he has done this before Ala the Ginyu Force, but even so it feels so lame. Like he really should have had an epic final battle, but instead took the bronze medal fight instead.
Though hey some people are really happy with this, and that's fine with them. Honestly I'd feel kinda sour if I was the big fan. I'd want a worthy final battle. I'd want a bold statement. Instead I see a coyote eating up the bones that the wolverine had left behind.
honestly you are obsessed with vegeta Being a hater is bored and tired
why both attack Vegeta fans? His own signature is an attack to vegeta.
heck, you are obsessed with Vegeta, is always looking for a post to discuss the character, If people enjoy moments of Vegeta what is the problem?
Goku , Vegeta and Piccolo are the best characters... I'll never understand who is dedicated to hate any of these three
That would be completely subjective. Honestly, only one of those three are in my top three.
That being said, no one's hating on Vegeta. I simply don't understand the hyperbole surrounding this event that seems to fly in the face of or ignore context. That simple.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
dbzfan7 wrote:Agreed. Vegeta kicking the shit out of Freeza sounds awesome on paper, and apparently looks fantastic in the animation. However that context absolutely kills the moment for me. It makes the fight lame. If Vegeta realized he was scared, but wanted to prove he could still beat a 100% Freeza, then the moment would be all the much sweeter and epic. They could also split that last senzu bean as that did work on Namek, and then have Vegeta fight Freeza at his best. Instead he beats up on a tired Freeza who could no longer hurt Goku beforehand, which pretty much meant Vegeta had pretty much had gotten spoon fed a win. Honestly I'd normally think Vegeta would rather not bother as a spoonfed victory doesn't make him superior. Kinda like how Goku refused a senzu while he was fighting Cell. He would rather die than win like that.
I do like stomp fights, but only when it's a stomp when everyone is at their best. Gohan vs Cell being the prime example as that's a stomp, but Cell really couldn't do shit even at his best. Freeza though could have done way better. I just can't imagine Vegeta going through with this. It feels so....not Vegeta. Though I guess he has done this before Ala the Ginyu Force, but even so it feels so lame. Like he really should have had an epic final battle, but instead took the bronze medal fight instead.
Though hey some people are really happy with this, and that's fine with them. Honestly I'd feel kinda sour if I was the big fan. I'd want a worthy final battle. I'd want a bold statement. Instead I see a coyote eating up the bones that the wolverine had left behind.
honestly you are obsessed with vegeta Being a hater is bored and tired
why both attack Vegeta fans? His own signature is an attack to vegeta.
heck, you are obsessed with Vegeta, is always looking for a post to discuss the character, If people enjoy moments of Vegeta what is the problem?
Goku , Vegeta and Piccolo are the best characters... I'll never understand who is dedicated to hate any of these three
I'm not even doing that. Criticism is not hate. If anything Vegeta enthusiast's are being way too uptight. I do not hate Vegeta. I like Vegeta. He has cool moments. He has cool speeches. I met his japanese voice actor twice. Oh yeah. I really hate Vegeta.
the problem is that his critique alone and only focuses on Vegeta. Someone talks about Vegeta and away you go criticizing. Dragon Ball has more characters, even in the movie there are more characters. seems that 80% of his posts criticizing Vegeta. Really that's the attitude of a hater. Sorry if I'm wrong, but honestly is what it seems me.
Favorite Character: Vegeta Seconds favorites caracteres:Goku , Piccolo Previously I like: Kid Gohan I do not like: Adult Gohan I hope more: Trunks and Goten I claim for: A girlfriend and a happy life for Yamcha. Women SSJ Hate: Send all women to take care of children, including A18. Need more of: Ten Sin Han
It's your way or the high way. I present a perfectly sound and logical case for why Vegeta may have pounced on a weakened Freeza and you write it off and simply say nope it was just because he wanted to one-up Goku despite have absolutely no proof of such. Funny how you call me out for bias for Vegeta when it's clear as day you have heavy bias against him. You refuse to see any of his good traits just as much as you refuse to see how much he's improved in terms of his bad traits. I could really care less how much you deny it.