BoG/Rof & GT are not in the same universe.

[Bacon Skittles]

<deleted>

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I agree they're not part of the same Universe, but GT isn't "non-canon."

[rereboy]

There is no established canon in Dragon Ball so fans can try to fit whatever they like.

[ekrolo2]

The new movies exist in manga continuity and GT exists in anime & original movies continuity.

[Basaku]

It was treated as canon for over 15 years both by Toei and most fans. Toriyama non-denying comments certinately didn't help. It was as official continuation of Z as it got and people got attatched to it, even if they didn't like a lot it did. So yeah, not surprising many are trying to reconcile it with new movies which is no longer possible at this stage really.

There's also the fact that GT is 60+ episodes and covers a lot of stories. The "new" continuation is barely 2 movies long so far and haven't actually gone past EOZ yet. What if Toriyama loses interest again? Would be even harded for some if the entire new era produced only 2/3 movies and left it at that. In such case many would still prefer GT as its longer and provides more content.

There is no established canon in Dragon Ball

That is changing right now, begginning with Toei making sure everyone and their mothers know that BOG was canon.

[Ajay]

Toriyama's been pretty clear with how he considers GT:

原作　ドラゴンボールの　壮大なサイドストーリーであるドラゴンボールGTを　ボクといっしょに楽しく観ていただければ　幸いです。
If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased.

Regarding these new films, he's also fairly clear on it, too:

After first deciding on Beerus’s character design and background, I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued.

Not a specific note on canonicity, but if I find it hard to imagine that he wouldn't personally consider these part of his original work if those are the thoughts running through his head. The lack of specificity certainly leaves it open to interpretation, which is pretty nice considering Dragon Ball fans should really be creating their own head canon rather than trying to determine consistencies from an extremely inconsistent series.

[CordonBloo]

I always find discussions of canon really interesting because evryone seems to have a different idea of it? To me it's always been very simple, anything A.T. states to be part of the official storyline ie anything he wrote (except neko majin obvs). It's the only way anything can consistently come together.

BUT apparently not everyone agrees. I'm not sure how much of it is just bias based on people wanting certain things to be legit that A.T. didnt directly create, or what, but it's a very interesting thing. I used to get very angry with DB fans for treating GT and the pre botg movies as canon when they clearly couldn't be, but now I kind of just am so jaded to it... It's easier for me to say now that everyone just has a different idea of what is and isn't canon.

Ultimately, I take A.T. as the word of god on this though.

@the above comment, I think AT was just very flattered that GT was made (as one would expect!) and is a fan of the series. It's clear from the original stuff though that its not canon because of the sheer quantity of contradictions. Obviously no one can say what he really thinks, but you do have to bear in mind he has a public image to uphold, and he is speaking from the perspective of the writer/artist, not the consumer!

[Lord Beerus]

The new movies exist in manga continuity and GT exists in anime & original movies continuity.

That's pretty much how I've seen it. And given Toriyama's comments regarding the new films as AjayLikesGaming has provided, that's probably how Toriyama sees it too.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I always considered the movies (sans BoG and R[F] to be non-canon since they don't fit anywhere in the timeline. Most people guess something such as "between episodes 167-168" or something ridiculous. Plus they're terrible. And when you consider the end of GT with the Shadow Dragons, they don't even mention movie wishes in the wishes that have been made since the beginning of Dragon Ball. And no matter what Toei may say, in my opinion GT is not canon. It's a gaiden: a side-story. Akira Toriyama is the author and has only expressed appreciation that his work was loved enough to be continued.

Battle of Gods already ruins GT in two ways: Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan when it's no longer needed after the events of BoG, and Resurrection "F" will have another wish made by the dragon balls. In GT Goku is seen transforming into a Super Saiyan and even transforming into a Super Saiyan 4. Then the Shadow Dragons aren't going to involve the wish made to bring Frieza back, either. I know that GT has a lot of plotholes, but Toriyama didn't have any regard for it when he made these two new films.

[dbzfan7]

Kamicollo had a pretty good thread somewhere about GT's canonization?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=29426

[Confidence Matters]

The only reason people want to believe GT isn't within the same continuity of the Z manga and BOG & ROF events/characters is because those events aren't referenced in none of GT's sagas.

But that doesn't mean anything - GT can exclude those events/characters without explanation and the most that can create is a discrepancy/plot hole. Plot holes in DB materials have never invalidated neither the materials' canonicity nor their continuity. The ultimate deciding factor in a chapter's canonicity or continuity isn't the head(s) of the series stating that it's "canon" - that word doesn't exist to any official head(s) of the series - it's TIMELINE PLACEMENT. If the head(s) of the series produce somthing and states it's timeline placement - then it is canon/continuation, unless noted otherwise.

Perfect examples of this are the JUMP 2008 Special, BOG & ROF as well. All of these have huge plot holes. Yet they are still 100% within the continuity of the manga because they were officially stated to have happened within the OFFICIAL Z manga/timeline.

Just because GT doesn't mention/reference BOG & ROF does NOT invalidate GT from being a continuation of the Z manga. Guess what, chapter 518 & chapter 519's don't have a single reference to the events/characters of BOG & ROF neither in their saga(s).

Ultimately, GT was stated to be a continuation of the Dragon Ball journey. C O N T I N U A T I O N. Although Akira stated GT is non-canon (example of a head stating otherwise), it is STILL a chapter that took place AFTER ALL of the events that took place.

Uub from Chapters 518 and 519 (both of which are continuations of BOG & ROF) being GT solidifies this. This connects BOG, ROF, Chapters 518 and 519 directly to GT's continuity.

GT = a non-canon continuation of the Z manga.

[Cipher]

Just because GT doesn't mention/reference BOG & ROF does NOT invalidate GT from being a continuation of the Z manga. Guess what, chapter 518 & chapter 519's don't have a single reference to the events/characters of BOG & ROF neither in their saga(s).

There's really no reason for those chapters to reference them, though; the characters are just dicking around at a tournament. No one has a reason to recall "That one time with Beerus, or Freeza," nor use any of the power-ups these movies have shown.

GT, on the other hand, has calls for all of those things, and although I like GT considerably more than the average fan, and still hold it up as the proper ending to at least the anime version of the series, these movies seem to be well and truly incompatible with it, meaning they're part of a timeline that ends with the original manga/Z anime ending. That's fine; different timelines ain't no thang.

The one thing that does bother me a bit about the movies' interaction with the original ending is how much weight they remove from the importance of Oob. It was always my view that by the end of the manga/Z, Goku and most of the other characters were at their limits; or at the very least, there was little Goku could do to continue to push or entertain himself (the 2008 Jump Special fits right in line with this). The ending of Battle of Gods alone removes that element, introducing new power-ups, Beerus, and a handful of other powerful beings not yet seen. If it's the intent of Toriyama and Toei to truly spin a new timeline that ignores the original manga ending, I say go for it, but right now that doesn't quite mash up for me, and from a subjective standpoint, the news movies don't mesh quite as well with either timeline as GT does with the original anime.

[Low Tone G]

After having these two half-finished products like B.O.G. and R.[F] I wish GT was a true continuation of the manga without the Bebi and Super 17 saga. The very final saga was really amazing compared to these current movies. Don't get me wrong I liked BoG, but let's be honest, it really wasn't a full movie, the plot has been closed right before it could have started. We were teased with 12 universes issue, but in the continuation, which is Resurrection [F], there isn't a single word about it. These 12 universes is not even a too huge material to uncover in some movies or some episodes. Still, Toriyama came up with some Freeza update show, with an exactly the same ending like back the Freeza saga. The movie didn't start badly(as we already know from the manga adaptation by Toyotaro) but after it turned into a Freeza humiliation process as he became a training moment for both Goku and Vegeta. In fact, Toriyama could have decided to have some sort of a cliffhanger in the end, but he didn't.

I'm not against other movies in the future, but for the God's sake, Toriyama should end these fun films and let the real adventures start already!!! Please!!! Even if Toriyama won't grow tired to write in the near future, still, we are blind if we don't recognize that Masako Nozawa is being close to her 80's.

[Hellspawn28]

Xenoverse treats GT as a Alternate Timeline. So it seems like GT is a AU series much how like DBZ Movie 1-13 are AU movies seeing that Toriyama views the old DBZ movies set in their own dimension.

[ekrolo2]

Xenoverse treats GT as a Alternate Timeline. So it seems like GT is a AU series much how like DBZ Movie 1-13 are AU movies seeing that Toriyama views the old DBZ movies set in their own dimension.

Does it matter that Beerus and GT characters are fully aware of each other?

[Lord Beerus]

Xenoverse treats GT as a Alternate Timeline. So it seems like GT is a AU series much how like DBZ Movie 1-13 are AU movies seeing that Toriyama views the old DBZ movies set in their own dimension.

Does it matter that Beerus and GT characters are fully aware of each other?

What GT characters have interacted with Beerus yet?

[ekrolo2]

Xenoverse treats GT as a Alternate Timeline. So it seems like GT is a AU series much how like DBZ Movie 1-13 are AU movies seeing that Toriyama views the old DBZ movies set in their own dimension.

Does it matter that Beerus and GT characters are fully aware of each other?

What GT characters have interacted with Beerus yet?

In Xenoverse, whenever you put up Goku & Gogeta as SSJ4s against Beerus, they're fully aware of each other. Its not much I know but it does prove that XV at least somewhat considers this all connected.

[Lord Beerus]

Does it matter that Beerus and GT characters are fully aware of each other?

What GT characters have interacted with Beerus yet?

In Xenoverse, whenever you put up Goku & Gogeta as SSJ4s against Beerus, they're fully aware of each other. Its not much I know but it does prove that XV at least somewhat considers this all connected.

I really don't think the special interactions between characters in a video game should carry any sort of weight. I mean, going by that logic, according to Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2, Budokai Tenkaichi 3, and Raging Blast 2, Bardock and Turles know each other. Which of course, has never been the case.

[Confidence Matters]

Just because GT doesn't mention/reference BOG & ROF does NOT invalidate GT from being a continuation of the Z manga. Guess what, chapter 518 & chapter 519's don't have a single reference to the events/characters of BOG & ROF neither in their saga(s).

There's really no reason for those chapters to reference them, though; the characters are just dicking around at a tournament. No one has a reason to recall "That one time with Beerus, or Freeza," nor use any of the power-ups these movies have shown.

This is your opinion, and not officially explained by any head(s) of the series.

Plus, when Bulma yells at Goku for hardly keeping in touch, she says the last time Goku came to visit between training sessions was for her birthday party, which would be false, and which would be a PERFECT opportunity for them to reference ANYTHING from ROF. Also, what the hell is Godku getting all excited for with Uub? And why does he doubt the Z-warriors' chances at winning the championship?

GT, on the other hand, has calls for all of those things, and although I like GT considerably more than the average fan, and still hold it up as the proper ending to at least the anime version of the series, these movies seem to be well and truly incompatible with it, meaning they're part of a timeline that ends with the original manga/Z anime ending. That's fine; different timelines ain't no thang.

Once again, lack of reference/plot oles has never invalidated a material's canon nor its continuity.

[Cipher]

Once again, lack of reference/plot oles has never invalidated a material's canon nor its continuity.

Oh, absolutely agreed, which is why the final chapters of the manga aren't incompatible with all these new developments (though I'll stand by the opinion that they're made a bit more awkward by them).

If they really wanted to, there's nothing stopping the parties involved from bringing in more material that would allow the movies to better line up with the status quo at the beginning of GT. (Though, for things including these stronger forms, the de-aged Pilaf crew, etc., some off-screen developments would need to occur). But right now they don't line up well and I doubt that's the intention of anyone on staff. The franchise as a whole has gotten increasingly friendly with the idea of alternate timelines in its ancillary material (Xenoverse and Heroes, from what I understand), all of which lead me to believe there's going to be no attempt to reconcile these films with GT.