I agree that it would be better to have some interesting new techniques to add variety to Goku's arsenal and make it possible to have more creative fights again...but at the same time, I'm not sure Toriyama could credibly do that when basically everything in the manga from the Nappa fight onward was dedicated to hammering in the idea that strategy and creative use of abilities have no real place in the series anymore and that raw power is the be-all and end-all.SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I would have prefered if Toriyama went more of the Naruto route and make the show more technique based now, and less about flashy transformation stacking because clearly he has no idea how to keep it simple while new. Goku has had 5 new forms since the Saiyan Saga and learned no new real tecniques at all. (IT is just better Teleportation)DanielSSJ wrote:The only thing that annoys me about the "Modern Toriyama" is how most of his new transformations are pallet swaps. SSJ God is basically normal Goku with Red hair. SSJ God SSJ or SSJ God 2 is a blue haired Super Saiyan. Golden Freeza. I like the new characters that are coming out, such as Beerus, but could a little more creativity go to the new transformations. I apprecieate the 'less is more' approach, but do something different. Please?
#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
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Theophrastus
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
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SingleFringe&Sparks
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Well Super Saiyan really put the nail in that coffin once the show just turned into a rapid, slug-fest and blast brawl, but even at that point it shouldn't be impossible to at leave have the God form open a door for something new. I couldn't really care any less about the Blueper Saiyan if its just SSJ1 recycled over and nothing more. It really turns me off. Like we already skipped ahead of the Red SSJGod state, that could have had its own unique properties to it that could reshape Goku's entire fighting range. It why I liked the ROST arc because it was about trying to build on something in depth, even though all the former SSJ forms are basically the same, its that type of training arcs that could expand itself. Its too early for another damn form.Theophrastus wrote:I agree that it would be better to have some interesting new techniques to add variety to Goku's arsenal and make it possible to have more creative fights again...but at the same time, I'm not sure Toriyama could credibly do that when basically everything in the manga from the Nappa fight onward was dedicated to hammering in the idea that strategy and creative use of abilities have no real place in the series anymore and that raw power is the be-all and end-all.SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I would have prefered if Toriyama went more of the Naruto route and make the show more technique based now, and less about flashy transformation stacking because clearly he has no idea how to keep it simple while new. Goku has had 5 new forms since the Saiyan Saga and learned no new real tecniques at all. (IT is just better Teleportation)DanielSSJ wrote:The only thing that annoys me about the "Modern Toriyama" is how most of his new transformations are pallet swaps. SSJ God is basically normal Goku with Red hair. SSJ God SSJ or SSJ God 2 is a blue haired Super Saiyan. Golden Freeza. I like the new characters that are coming out, such as Beerus, but could a little more creativity go to the new transformations. I apprecieate the 'less is more' approach, but do something different. Please?
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
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Kendamu
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
If the Super Cyan thing doesn't work out well with audiences, in the next one they could just be like, "Oh, I've gotten strong enough with God power to not need to combine it with a transformation that stresses my body," or something. I doubt that'll be the case, though.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
It's not cyan. Cyan is green-blue.Kendamu wrote:If the Super Cyan
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Looks green-blue to me.
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Kendamu
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
I don't know what the official name is yet, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, it's Super Cyan or Super Saiyan Blue, depending on my mood.Rocketman wrote:It's not cyan. Cyan is green-blue.Kendamu wrote:If the Super Cyan
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
The one thing that strikes me about the new material versus the old is that it seems to have a bit of a tonal/thematic disconnect from where the series had landed at the end of the Boo arc (and, consequently, the ending of the manga it's still supposed to keep pace with).
I get the definite sense that characters' potential gains were leveling out by the end of the Boo arc, which makes sense given the new extremes each arc required for the few characters capable of doing so to get stronger. There's much ado about them realizing they've reached the level of the highest gods, Boo completes a fairly natural progression of scope, characters like Gotenks, the entirety of Super Saiyan 3, etc., introduce parody elements to the levels of the strength, Gohan supposedly has all his potential unlocked, Vegeta admits he may never catch Goku, etc. At the end of the ten-year timeskip, Goku appears to be super bored, which gives weight to his decision to train Oob.
Material up through the 2008 Jump Special fit right in line with this; Goku's character in that entry is right in line with what we'd expect him to be for the completion of his arc in the final chapters.
Even GT, with its power-ups, didn't rock the boat with this; characters still seemed very much to plateau; new threats couldn't just come out of the ether, and for the first half of the series the new threats weren't strength-based at all.
Battle of Gods/Resurrection of F seem to have taken a completely opposite approach. The scope of the world continues to expand (when the scope has become cosmic, Battle of Gods went beyond cosmic). New, stronger fighters have always existed and are always just around the corner. Potential growth doesn't peter out, not even, in a bit of subversive wonder, for villains like Freeza. Goku's lessons are now about how he still, and evermore, has room to grow.
In that way, it's very, very in line with Toriyama's statements that he imagined a scenario just as if he'd continued the manga -- that is, the manga as it existed prior to its final chapters. It's all right in line with the progression of most of the series, but not quite in line with what was for twenty years, and is presumably still, its end. (And this trend, I'd argue, has its origins in some of the Toriyama-penned DBO material.) I can appreciate the necessity of doing this to pen new and exciting adventures, and it would feel completely comfortable as an alternate route over the ending we got. But, at least at this point, while it doesn't seem wholly irreconcilable, a difference in philosophies seems clear.
I guess I slightly prefer the finality of the former approach, though no doubt there'll continue to be fun material from this new one.
Re: Above: Gokuman Red, Gokuman Blue.
I get the definite sense that characters' potential gains were leveling out by the end of the Boo arc, which makes sense given the new extremes each arc required for the few characters capable of doing so to get stronger. There's much ado about them realizing they've reached the level of the highest gods, Boo completes a fairly natural progression of scope, characters like Gotenks, the entirety of Super Saiyan 3, etc., introduce parody elements to the levels of the strength, Gohan supposedly has all his potential unlocked, Vegeta admits he may never catch Goku, etc. At the end of the ten-year timeskip, Goku appears to be super bored, which gives weight to his decision to train Oob.
Material up through the 2008 Jump Special fit right in line with this; Goku's character in that entry is right in line with what we'd expect him to be for the completion of his arc in the final chapters.
Even GT, with its power-ups, didn't rock the boat with this; characters still seemed very much to plateau; new threats couldn't just come out of the ether, and for the first half of the series the new threats weren't strength-based at all.
Battle of Gods/Resurrection of F seem to have taken a completely opposite approach. The scope of the world continues to expand (when the scope has become cosmic, Battle of Gods went beyond cosmic). New, stronger fighters have always existed and are always just around the corner. Potential growth doesn't peter out, not even, in a bit of subversive wonder, for villains like Freeza. Goku's lessons are now about how he still, and evermore, has room to grow.
In that way, it's very, very in line with Toriyama's statements that he imagined a scenario just as if he'd continued the manga -- that is, the manga as it existed prior to its final chapters. It's all right in line with the progression of most of the series, but not quite in line with what was for twenty years, and is presumably still, its end. (And this trend, I'd argue, has its origins in some of the Toriyama-penned DBO material.) I can appreciate the necessity of doing this to pen new and exciting adventures, and it would feel completely comfortable as an alternate route over the ending we got. But, at least at this point, while it doesn't seem wholly irreconcilable, a difference in philosophies seems clear.
I guess I slightly prefer the finality of the former approach, though no doubt there'll continue to be fun material from this new one.
Re: Above: Gokuman Red, Gokuman Blue.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
What I don't like about the new movies is the enormous gap between Goku and Gohan(3rd strongest of the earth)
If ssjG was a one time thing And that the post god ki was temporary, I could forgive AT.
But making Goku stronger than Vegeto ssj3 and after that making what should have been temporary, permanent.
Making Gohan loses his ultimate state and make him a weak ssj when he was already much weaker than goku ssjG with mystic.
Make Piccolo lose to a minion of Freeza.
How can you make Goku permanently 50x stronger than mystic Gohan and then make Gohan become a ssj1?
Even after the 7 years, Gohan only had lost 20% of his power maybe. So here he should be down at the level of gotenks ssj3.
But no, let's make him come back at a level even lower than In the beginning of buu arc. And make him lose ssj2.
And why not give the rage boost to Vegeta too?
For me, these movies are only a bonus. They are as canon as gt or any fanfics.
If ssjG was a one time thing And that the post god ki was temporary, I could forgive AT.
But making Goku stronger than Vegeto ssj3 and after that making what should have been temporary, permanent.
Making Gohan loses his ultimate state and make him a weak ssj when he was already much weaker than goku ssjG with mystic.
Make Piccolo lose to a minion of Freeza.
How can you make Goku permanently 50x stronger than mystic Gohan and then make Gohan become a ssj1?
Even after the 7 years, Gohan only had lost 20% of his power maybe. So here he should be down at the level of gotenks ssj3.
But no, let's make him come back at a level even lower than In the beginning of buu arc. And make him lose ssj2.
And why not give the rage boost to Vegeta too?
For me, these movies are only a bonus. They are as canon as gt or any fanfics.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Just wanted to say that Piccolo losing to Freeza's minion isn't that outrageous.dalome wrote:What I don't like about the new movies is the enormous gap between Goku and Gohan(3rd strongest of the earth)
If ssjG was a one time thing And that the post god ki was temporary, I could forgive AT.
But making Goku stronger than Vegeto ssj3 and after that making what should have been temporary, permanent.
Making Gohan loses his ultimate state and make him a weak ssj when he was already much weaker than goku ssjG with mystic.
Make Piccolo lose to a minion of Freeza.
How can you make Goku permanently 50x stronger than mystic Gohan and then make Gohan become a ssj1?
Even after the 7 years, Gohan only had lost 20% of his power maybe. So here he should be down at the level of gotenks ssj3.
But no, let's make him come back at a level even lower than In the beginning of buu arc. And make him lose ssj2.
And why not give the rage boost to Vegeta too?
For me, these movies are only a bonus. They are as canon as gt or any fanfics.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME?
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Why not?fexus wrote:
Just wanted to say that Piccolo losing to Freeza's minion isn't that outrageous.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Piccolo must be stronger than semi-perfect Cell.
So now, Freeza has minions who are much stronger than He was on namek?
Freeza was one of the strongest In the universe, except maybe his dad, the king demon Dabra, a djinn And some high tier gods.
If you could find someone stronger than Freeza namek, Freeza should not be so famous.
So now, Freeza has minions who are much stronger than He was on namek?
Freeza was one of the strongest In the universe, except maybe his dad, the king demon Dabra, a djinn And some high tier gods.
If you could find someone stronger than Freeza namek, Freeza should not be so famous.
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Kendamu
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
I don't think what's going on is too terribly inconsistent with old material. One thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is that Videl, while being incredibly talented for a normal human who hasn't undergone Kamesen'nin style training and tired easily just from drawing out her Ki, was able to learn to fly from Gohan's house to her own in a relatively short period of time. Back when Bukujutsu was the new hotness, it wasn't used too often because it ate up a lot of energy. That's why Goku took Kinto'un when going to face Raditz. We gloss over this stuff a lot.
I really think that our perception of the characters' strength, stamina, and abilities are much higher than hey actually are. Part of this is due to how much time has passed between the end of the manga and the start of any real new material. Kuririn as relieved when he found out that they wouldn't be using Super Saiyan during the Budoukai during the Buu arc. That means that, at that time, their base levels were pretty high, but still not so high that Kuririn didn't stand a chance. This was when power has become so ridiculous that it was an open joke at times.
I really don't think it's all so black-and-white, either. The apparent inconsistencies kind of stem from us relying on Battle Powers to a degree. Those have been proven time and time again to be useless because they don't factor in Shounen Spirit or whatever you might want to call it.
its just like how a trained MMA fighter can sometimes have a hard time in a street brawl. It's "inconsistent" but it happens. We don't call foul on actual physics or say that God retcon'd the guy's training when it does.
In any case, I'm not sure that these "new" things we're seeing in regards to power, skill, and stamina are really "new" as much as they are just more expanded upon. Actual power has always been kind of weird in Dragonball. Now it's just contradicting the overestimations we've been creating in our heads since the mid-1990s.
Or maybe I'm just full of crap and like to enjoy Dragonball without overthinking it.
I really think that our perception of the characters' strength, stamina, and abilities are much higher than hey actually are. Part of this is due to how much time has passed between the end of the manga and the start of any real new material. Kuririn as relieved when he found out that they wouldn't be using Super Saiyan during the Budoukai during the Buu arc. That means that, at that time, their base levels were pretty high, but still not so high that Kuririn didn't stand a chance. This was when power has become so ridiculous that it was an open joke at times.
I really don't think it's all so black-and-white, either. The apparent inconsistencies kind of stem from us relying on Battle Powers to a degree. Those have been proven time and time again to be useless because they don't factor in Shounen Spirit or whatever you might want to call it.
its just like how a trained MMA fighter can sometimes have a hard time in a street brawl. It's "inconsistent" but it happens. We don't call foul on actual physics or say that God retcon'd the guy's training when it does.
In any case, I'm not sure that these "new" things we're seeing in regards to power, skill, and stamina are really "new" as much as they are just more expanded upon. Actual power has always been kind of weird in Dragonball. Now it's just contradicting the overestimations we've been creating in our heads since the mid-1990s.
Or maybe I'm just full of crap and like to enjoy Dragonball without overthinking it.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
I don't hate the movies. I am Happy that we get some new material. But I don't like It being canon And forgetting the manga feats And EoZ.
It would he better If It was only an alternative universe.
It would he better If It was only an alternative universe.
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Kendamu
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
The movies, whether or not Toriyama is involved, in no way invalidate the original 42-volume manga. You can always enjoy it or the TV shows that adapt it without ever touching any outside material. No need to worry about "canon" at all.dalome wrote:I don't hate the movies. I am Happy that we get some new material. But I don't like It being canon And forgetting the manga feats And EoZ.
It would he better If It was only an alternative universe.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
The screenshot seem to fall under cyan, but as I pointed out over on the movie thread:Rocketman wrote:It's not cyan. Cyan is green-blue.Kendamu wrote:If the Super Cyan
It would seem there's a bit of inconsistency regarding this..Doctor. wrote:The color is really inconsistent. It looks cyan in some scans, then it's dark blue in others, then it has a greenish hue, in others it's a really light blue, I think it's because of the aura.dbgtFO wrote:Is it just me or does Goku's Blue Super Saiyan hair look different in some screenshots?
It looks more cyan now.
In the first scans we got:
Spoiler:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjG4hjJu7Vc
But then the latest trailer came out and now it is cyan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRqPVlpYSTU
You can also see the difference in colour, when Freeza and Goku clash on the first scan contra the clash in the trailer.
For some reason the color is different. I Wonder how it is in the actual movie.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Because power or ki doesn't stay the same. It can decrease or increase based on what the user has done. The body type also plays some role in this. Freeza for example can still survive even after getting cut in half. I bet not even half the Z fighters could have done that. Another example is Cell and Buu which also have different body types. Cell has an exoskeleton like all bugs and Buu has a bubblegum like body. Ki or powerlevel isn't all there is to it.dalome wrote:Piccolo must be stronger than semi-perfect Cell.
So now, Freeza has minions who are much stronger than He was on namek?
Freeza was one of the strongest In the universe, except maybe his dad, the king demon Dabra, a djinn And some high tier gods.
If you could find someone stronger than Freeza namek, Freeza should not be so famous.
We could also include the reason that Piccolo doesn't want to kill in this and underestimating his opponent. So, it isn't that illogical.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME?
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
I believe that the users that went to see the movie confirmed that Piccolo proved to be unable to take him down after trading blows with him, thus confirming that his power rivals Piccolo's.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
Still can't say that he didn't held back.rereboy wrote:I believe that the users that went to see the movie confirmed that Piccolo proved to be unable to take him down after trading blows with him, thus confirming that his power rivals Piccolo's.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME?
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
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Kendamu
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
It's not a big deal. Cyan's actually it's own range of color rather than just one set-in-stone color. It's like how "green" can be different shades and still be called "green."
Really, though, it was more about the pun of Saiyan and Cyan sounding pretty much the same than it was about being super exact or official about it.
Really, though, it was more about the pun of Saiyan and Cyan sounding pretty much the same than it was about being super exact or official about it.
Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama
If that was the case, he wouldn't need Gohan to take care of him. Piccolo would just stop holding back.fexus wrote:Still can't say that he didn't held back.rereboy wrote:I believe that the users that went to see the movie confirmed that Piccolo proved to be unable to take him down after trading blows with him, thus confirming that his power rivals Piccolo's.