#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

[Kendamu]

To me, it was like everyone was sort of worn out from fighting all 1,000 soldiers while trying not to kill anyone in order to buy some time until Goku arrived. Shisame was fresh when Piccolo was tired. Gohan still had Super Saiyan up his sleeve which is why he was able to step in and take care of the situation even though he, too, was sort of fatigued.

[fexus]

I believe that the users that went to see the movie confirmed that Piccolo proved to be unable to take him down after trading blows with him, thus confirming that his power rivals Piccolo's.

Still can't say that he didn't held back.

If that was the case, he wouldn't need Gohan to take care of him. Piccolo would just stop holding back.

The summary made it sound like that Gohan step in to help Piccolo not to save him.

[rereboy]

The summary made it sound like that Gohan step in to help Piccolo not to save him.

If Piccolo was holding back, he wouldn't need his help.

To me, it was like everyone was sort of worn out from fighting all 1,000 soldiers while trying not to kill anyone in order to buy some time until Goku arrived. Shisame was fresh when Piccolo was tired. Gohan still had Super Saiyan up his sleeve which is why he was able to step in and take care of the situation even though he, too, was sort of fatigued.

That is another problem on itself since it makes little sense for them to be so worn out from fighting fodder. They are so much powerful than Freeza's men that 5% of their stamina should be more than enough. But the movie probably doesn't want us to think about that and wants us to just go along with what is happening instead.

[fexus]

The summary made it sound like that Gohan step in to help Piccolo not to save him.

If Piccolo was holding back, he wouldn't need his help.

It doesn't mean that Piccolo need help, it's just that Gohan wanted to help. I think Piccolo could still handle him but Gohan took him out first.

[rereboy]

It doesn't mean that Piccolo need help, it's just that Gohan wanted to help. I think Piccolo could still handle him but Gohan took him out first.

If you say so.

[dbgtFO]

It's not a big deal. Cyan's actually it's own range of color rather than just one set-in-stone color. It's like how "green" can be different shades and still be called "green."

Spoiler:

Really, though, it was more about the pun of Saiyan and Cyan sounding pretty much the same than it was about being super exact or official about it.

I'm not really bothered by you and Rocketman's disagreement. I'm more interested in official material not being consistent with what color Goku's hair is.
By the way, can you recall, if Goku's hair had the same color as in the newest trailer(as seen on the previous page) or is it the darker color we first saw in the scans?

[saunasolmu]

That is another problem on itself since it makes little sense for them to be so worn out from fighting fodder. They are so much powerful than Freeza's men that 5% of their stamina should be more than enough. But the movie probably doesn't want us to think about that and wants us to just go along with what is happening instead.

When was it ever established that Z fighters have the stamina to beat that many powerful foes? And without resorting to huge AoE attacks (which would kill them and they're avoiding that).

[rereboy]

When was it ever established that Z fighters have the stamina to beat that many powerful foes? And without resorting to huge AoE attacks (which would kill them and they're avoiding that).

We have seen various times that it takes almost no effort for a dramatically stronger fighter to take out much weaker foes.

For example, Future Trunks, in his base form, took care of maybe two dozen of Freeza's goons in a instant before he fought Freeza with no visible effort at all. If he had taken out 100 or 200 instead of a two dozen, that would be just 5 or 10 times as much. Even if he had spent 1% of his stamina taking out those two dozen, 5 or 10 times as much should just be 5% or 10% of his stamina.

Would Future Trunks suddenly be rivaled by Ginyu or first form Freeza just because he lost 5% or 10% of his stamina? Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

And even assuming that Future Trunks lost 1% of his stamina just taking care of those Freeza's goons is too much. Otherwise, the whole system of how saiyans conquered planets doesn't make sense since, how would just one saiyan or a handful of saiyans that don't even surpass 10.000 in power level, conquer planets with millions of inhabitants? If just fighting two dozen soldiers that are ants compared to them, uses that much stamina, I don't see how they would manage to take care of millions without getting too weak, allowing even the weak inhabitants to be able to hurt them and kill them.

[jcogginsa]

Trunks killed them. The Z fighters here are holding back to avoid that exact thing from happening

[rereboy]

Trunks killed them. The Z fighters here are holding back to avoid that exact thing from happening

Simply knocking them out would require even less energy and stamina. And stalling them wouldn't require significantly more energy than just fighting them.

[Rocketman]

In any case, I'm not sure that these "new" things we're seeing in regards to power, skill, and stamina are really "new" as much as they are just more expanded upon.

It's being contracted, not expanded. Everybody else suddenly gets worn out easier so they can be shoved aside more easily for Godku.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

In that way, it's very, very in line with Toriyama's statements that he imagined a scenario just as if he'd continued the manga -- that is, the manga as it existed prior to its final chapters. It's all right in line with the progression of most of the series, but not quite in line with what was for twenty years, and is presumably still, its end. (And this trend, I'd argue, has its origins in some of the Toriyama-penned DBO material.) I can appreciate the necessity of doing this to pen new and exciting adventures, and it would feel completely comfortable as an alternate route over the ending we got. But, at least at this point, while it doesn't seem wholly irreconcilable, a difference in philosophies seems clear.

The thing I have the problem with is the placement of what Toriyama was trying to rationalize. He started from post-Buu bacause he said that all the characters were in their alledged primes; but the characters that have aged up were the ones that didn't even fight at all or weren't anywhere near the Saiyan levels already. It wouldnt have mattered if Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaotzu, were too old if they already stopped fighting major fights since the Saiyan Saga and didnt do anything in BoG anyway. Gohan already gave up and would have regardless, Piccolo and Vegeta are unaging, Chi Chi & Bulma aren't all that necessary to the plots and If anything he could have just filled the fighter void with older Buu Saga Trunks, Goten, Toddler Pan, Uub, and placed BoG during the Uub arc anyway if the only relevant characters are the Sayians (excluding Gohan)while considering SSJGod is also more Saiyan worship, this choice doesn't do anything but mess up the timeline. With BoG and FnF where they are in the time-line feels like the God class of fighting overpowers Goku in the frame. As said, it doesnt make sense why Uub would damage Goku now unless we fill in the abstracts with pointless hypatheticals and why introducing a new transformation there doesn't work.

[mAcChaos]

Trunks killed them. The Z fighters here are holding back to avoid that exact thing from happening

Simply knocking them out would require even less energy and stamina. And stalling them wouldn't require significantly more energy than just fighting them.

That's not true. Go ahead and try to stab someone in just such a way that you incapacitate them but don't kill them. It is way way harder especially in a life and death battle. It probably just took a lot more mental focus.

[rereboy]

That's not true. Go ahead and try to stab someone in just such a way that you incapacitate them but don't kill them. It is way way harder especially in a life and death battle. It probably just took a lot more mental focus.

Dragon Ball isn't real life. We've seen characters knocking down greatly inferior fighters simply by tapping them. Heck, simple low level Kiais should be more than enough to knock out scores of Freeza's soldiers. I imagine that not killing them requires more focus but it also requires less expenditure of energy on the attack compared to the energy spent on an attack that would kill the opponent, which is why I stated that it should spend less stamina.

[Saiyan007]

Yeah the whole stamina thing is truly dumb

It's like saying base Vegito would get tired from knocking out someone like King Piccolo over and over again.Sure he may get bored but tired not a chance.Sure not killing him would take some precision but he would be using 0.000000000000000000000000000001% of his full power so why would he get tired from doing that when gaps between the likes of Vegeta and Monster Zarbon doesn't even make Vegeta sweat.

Another example is Goku vs Jeice and Burter with a lowered power level Goku is effortlessly dodging them like it's nothing without breaking a sweat.

Also Numbers don't mean much if the gap is huge remember what Freeza said "Do you think 3 mere ants can beat a dinosaur"?

[Kendamu]

Without stamina, that entire fight would've been pretty much entirely boring. Maybe it doesn't completely make sense, but it also doesn't make sense that gag characters can live on the moon or get punched into a nearby mountain and shrug it off for laughs. It doesn't make sense that a normal girl, who happens to be strong on the normal human scale but nothing special otherwise, can fly around with the main characters when flying used to be something that quickly consumed the energy of someone like Saiyan Arc Goku. Still, we go along with it.

If we can go along with that, why can't we go along with newly considered factors that actually make fights more exciting to watch?

[Saiga]

Without stamina, that entire fight would've been pretty much entirely boring. Maybe it doesn't completely make sense, but it also doesn't make sense that gag characters can live on the moon or get punched into a nearby mountain and shrug it off for laughs. It doesn't make sense that a normal girl, who happens to be strong on the normal human scale but nothing special otherwise, can fly around with the main characters when flying used to be something that quickly consumed the energy of someone like Saiyan Arc Goku. Still, we go along with it.

If we can go along with that, why can't we go along with newly considered factors that actually make fights more exciting to watch?

I don't find anything about these fights exciting at all. Knowing that how things should really go just makes them seem pointless.

Seems kind of weak to put the onus on viewers to make things exciting. Maybe writers could stop relying on that and just produce something good.

[TheGmGoken]

can fly around with the main characters when flying used to be something that quickly consumed the energy of someone like Saiyan Arc Goku. Still, we go along with it.

Videl had trouble....

[Zenkai]

I don't find anything about these fights exciting at all.

You've seen the new movie fights? Cool, where at? I guess you were at either the Japanese screening or the Hollywood premiere.

[Zephyr]

I don't find anything about these fights exciting at all.

You've seen the new movie fights? Cool, where at? I guess you were at either the Japanese screening or the Hollywood premiere.

No, you see, the raw details are literally the only things that matter. Execution and presentation are absolute non-factors.