Is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo?

[Confidence Matters]

I'm almost late to the party. Heh.

It's as simple as this, fellas:

Boo without any Kai influences on his soul is at his most powerful. This is stated in the mangas. Both in the original japanese manga, and the VizBig edition. Super Boo had Kai influences, as soon as they were removed, his chi is stated to become stronger and the result of this is Kid Boo. Literally, Super Boo minus all kais results in Kid Boo.

Good Boo does represent both Kaioshins, as when Good Boo is removed, Boo returns to his original form that has no one absorbed. Disconnecting Good Boo = disconnecting BOTH South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin. It's impossible for Boo to be accessing his South Kaioshin-absorbed ki because South Kaioshin is no longer connected. The ki that began increasing from Super Boo's ki when Good Boo was removed was Kid Boo's ki all along, as that is literally the only ki left in Boo's system.

More proof that BOTH the Kais tamed Boo:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7

Kaioshin: “….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..“

Elder Kaioshin: "…And he became that huge Boo from before?"

Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…."

Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Means Buff Boo is weaker than Kid Boo, who is already sttaed to be stronger than Super Boo.

In the Vizbig manga, Kibitoshin confirms that BOTH souls tamed/restricted Boo.

Kid Boo isn't tamed, Super Boo still is. Thus, Kid Boo is stronger.

PROOF Kid Boo was holding back:

Kid Boo falls asleep as soon as he appears on Kai's planet. Before that, Kid Boo hurled a rather weak energy blast at Earth, as soon as he spawned, that was easily deflected by Vegeta SSJ1. He may have not been frolicking around/playing around prior to eating a SSJ3 kamehameha like nothing, but that casual ki blast is CLEAR indication that Kid Boo's power level was heavily held back if his ki blast got deflected by Vegeta SSJ1. Vegeta SSJ1 is at least 8 times weaker than Kid Boo IF - HUGE FUCKIN IF! - we have Kid Boo's power a exactly Goku SSJ3 - there is simply no way Kid Boo was at full power when he launched that casual ki blast if Vegeta was able to react to it perfectly and actually deflected by a ki blast that is 8 times weaker (actually MORE times than that since that wasn't even Vegeta's strongest ki blast).

Kid Boo also punches Hercule square in the face and Hercule lives and barely has a scratch. Hercule > Vegeta SSJ2, or Kid Boo held back his power to troll Goku & Co... what do you think.

"Goku implied Kid was weaker than Buff Boo"

Kid Boo spawned with a suppressed power level. Given Goku's arrogant tone/face when he said "we did it," it's fair to assess Goku was being arrogant (look at his face, it is identical to Vegeta's arrogant face when he says "Heh... heh heh heh, look at our little friend!"- and given Kid Boo when he spawned had a very suppressed power level, probably his entire time in that saga, it was a false assessment of Kid Boo.

"Goku was not willing to fight Super Boo with Vegeta at full power"

True.

"He had to resort to a plan to weaken Super Boo"

True.

"Yet he was willing to face Kid Boo alone"

FALSE. Goku on the Kai planet was STILL trying to come up with a plan to take down Kid Boo. Kid Boo shows up instantly and so they HAD no other choice but to fight. Same exact thing happened within Boo when Super Boo showed up - they were ready to fight to the death.

"Yah but he turned down the potaras"

ONLY because he tried to be too cool in front of Vegeta, in addition to being an HONORABLE warrior. Since Kid Boo was fighting alone now as well. All of these are concrete statements made in the ORIGINAL manga and the VizBig edition of the manga. Old Kai even calls them IDIOTS for doing so, heavily insisting they use them again. Old Kai doesn't make bad judgement calls - if he felt the STRONG urge to insist on them potara-fusing again, it's because neither of them, even together, stood a chance against Kid Boo.

He didn't turn down the potara or step up to Kid Boo one on one without a plan because Kid Boo was more accessible/weaker/easier, it was because there was no other choice and because Goku attempted to show off too much in the name of his saiyan heritage and honor.

As for the actual fight, and more proof Kid Boo was much, much stronger than Goku:

Kid Boo ate Goku's SSJ3 kamehameha head on and spawned back having the time of his life. That has nothing to do with stamina, Goku wasn't strong enough to do any type of damage to Kid Boo. Vegeta even states that only Boo vs Boo can cause damage to Boo. Kid Boo was also able to land some solid blows on Goku SSJ3 as well. If Goku posed ANY legit threat to Kid Boo, Kid Boo would have resorted to absorption. The fact that he didn't indicates Goku was nowhere near Kid Boo in raw ki. Kid Boo attempted to turn Goku into candy, but that doesn't mean anything because Boo used that beam on a vastly weaker Dabura, and countless other weak humans, and even on the entire Z cast in the lookout. It is too random to say it only triggers when he fights a more powerful opponent. But the absorption has been used on 100% of the opponents who were more powerful than Boo. See: Gotenks, Gohan, Vegito.

Lack of absorption, random dancing and frolicking, zero damage taken from Goku = Kid Boo > SSj3 Goku by far

I don't even need to bring up the fact that Goku could NOT stop Kid Boo's Vanishing Ball that destroyed Earth.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7 Context: Boo forms a big ki blast Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”

Wanna know what's funny? God Goku's 6 to Beerus' 10 was able to stop the Destruction Bomb/whatever Beerus ultimate move is, and yet Goku could not EVER stop Kid Boo's Vanishing Ball. That means Kid Boo and Goku had a bigger discrepancy in power in obvious favor of Kid Boo than God Goku's 6 vs Beerus' 10.

Ultimate proof that Kid Boo > Goku SSj3.

"Dammnit~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!"

"but then Goku turns around right after and comments that if he had a minute to gather his ki, he'd be able to finish him."

And he tried gathering that energy and he reverted back to normal. Wow look at that, another overestimation on Goku's part. Surprise. Who's to say since his he overestimated his own abilities, he didn't underestimate Kid Boo's the entire time? The entire Boo saga has been Goku doing miscalculations that miraculously pay off somehow. Hell, he has done that since day 1. This is another one of those examples where he overestimates himself due to SSJ3 and underestimates Kid Boo.

Hell, he did the exact same with Beerus the first time they fought too. Not to mention thinking his weak ass SSJ1 could actually blow a hole inside Boo? LOL

SSJ3 makes Goku extremely arrogant and irrational.

Goku saying he could beat Boo and then TOTALLY not beating Kid Boo in the least is, no matter how anyone spins it, a lie/overestimation of his SSJ3.

TL;DR:

Super Boo having good Boo removed from within results in a stronger Boo. Kid Boo is the result of Super Boo with Good Boo removed. The only reason Goku celebrated (too early) when Kid Boo spawned was because Kid Boo was docile/hiding his real power. Vegeta even says that Kid Boo is far stronger than he ever imagined, referring to that early celebration of "we did it!" Goku felt Buff Boo's chi surge really high because Buff Boo was powering up to the limit. Kid Boo wasn't, never did, he was just standing there. Based on the following events of the manga, there is proof that Kid Boo was holding back his real chi, which allowed Goku & Vegeta to assess the situation wrongly, as Vegeta later admits.


Also, Super Boo had kais influencing his souls still, meaning his Shouki wasn't as strong as Kid Boo's. Kid Boo was PURE EVIL, meaning his Shouki was easily the strongest of all Boos. This is simply fact.


"Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms:** genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character)**. You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe."



Kid Boo had a MUCH higher Shouki which probably pushed his power level beyond Super Boo's despite the discrepancy in genki.


But that's a whole nother post.


Kid Boo > Super Boo

[Confidence Matters]

If we want to get REAL nerdy, there IS NO STATEMENT saying Southern Kai's influence strengthen/affected Boo in any official release of dragon ball, manga or otherwise. Therefore, it didn't. Otherwise it would have been noted.

Therefore, AT THE VERY LEAST, Kid Boo = Buff Boo > Super Boo > Goku SSJ3

[dragonballer]

If we want to get REAL nerdy, there IS NO STATEMENT saying Southern Kai's influence strengthen/affected Boo in any official release of dragon ball, manga or otherwise. Therefore, it didn't. Otherwise it would have been noted.

Therefore, AT THE VERY LEAST, Kid Boo = Buff Boo > Super Boo > Goku SSJ3

there are some parts of your theory i agreed with you.

but i don't think manga kid buu was holding back against goku. manga kid buu likes to torture people,that's why he didn't kill anyone,if kid buu>>>>>>>>>>goku,buu wouldhave tortured goku just like how he did with vegeta.

take a look at some of my theories about buu:

kid buu : the theories part1-http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29708

kid buu : the theories part2 -http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29758

majin buu,the original god of destruction? -http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29739

[dbzfan7]

Haven't been able to say this in a while but, we got a CODE PINK. We were doing so well.

Anyways my answer to this is Boohan>Bootenks>South Boo>Booccolo(w/boys)>Booccolo>Super Boo>Kid Boo>Fat Boo. I have yet to decide on the skinny Boo matter yet.

[Confidence Matters]

there are some parts of your theory i agreed with you.

but i don't think manga kid buu was holding back against goku.

Right after tanking Goku's best attack (SSJ3 kamehameha), he delays his regeneration and spawns dancing and trolling around, clearly indicating he doesn't take Goku SSJ3 serious.

It is unlikely that he was just fooling around in that one sole instance. It would not make sense for Kid Boo to go 100% and then randomly just stop taking Goku serious, especially after an attack of that magnitude. If anything, that attack would worry/enrage Kid Boo to truly go mad and destroy the universe. But he didn't, because all of those warriors on the Kai planet were a joke to him.

Even if Kid Boo was going 100% the entire time, it doesn't change the fact that Boo without kais restricting/taming him (Kid Boo) is stronger and more dangerous than Boo with kais restricting/taming him (Super Boo).

Also, nothing TRULY states that South Kaioshin influenced Kid Boo's ki nor personality in anyway. Nothing at all. I'm just going by the Herms line in which Kibitoshin says something the along the lines of "the heart he gained through absorption" and the VizBig line that backs that up with Kibitoshin confirming that the souls Boo ate tamed/weakened him.

Therefore, Kid Boo and Buff Boo are AT THE VERY LEAST the same in power, which would put them above Super Boo.

These are statements from the manga ladies and gentlemen. There is no argument here. People need to stop appealing to popularity and use their brains.

I'm going to take this opportunity to take those points you linked and address them:

"1) We know for certain that neither of the two Kamehamehas Goku fired at Buu were at full power, because when Goku and Vegeta talk later about wiping him out with his full power, Goku comments that it's something he hasn't had the chance to do yet."

Except Goku specifically states he is going to go ALL OUT against Kid Boo. Thus, yes those TWO kamehameha's were indeed full powered ones - at least, the very first one launched at Kid Boo was because he had spent NO energy fighting and fired it 100% FRESH. Goku claiming if he gathered his energy for 1 minute, he'd be able to wipe Boo out is either a) Goku underestimating his SSJ3 abilities and/or referring to a special beam cannon type of attack where he is able to gather lots of ki that surpasses his nature max power level.

Goku clearly overestimated his SSJ3 because he sits there for MORE than a minute and he reverts back to normal. If he were dead, he would have gathered that energy to the levels he was when he first started and then fired the exact same kamehameha that Kid Boo ate the first time.

SSJ3 clouds the user's judgement and skyrockets their arrogance. No saiyan is free from this, even the mastered SSJ's suffer from this - see Gohan SSJ2's arrogance during the Cell Games for instance.

As for Vegeta claiming Goku can defeat Kid Boo with Full Power SSJ3, that's just Vegeta being arrogant about the saiyan's ability because he is ultra-proud of Goku.

Thus, Kid Boo > Goku SSJ3.

Goku's statement about Buu never indicated that he was agreeing with Vegeta. Vegeta commented that Buu had shrunk down in size, and Goku commented that they had managed to succeed in weakening him, and that now they might be able to manage something.

Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”


The "We did it!" being in relation to what he had said earlier inside Buu's body.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”


He was commenting that they were "almost there" in weakening Buu to where he was weak enough for them to handle, but still hadn't succeeded yet. Then when Buu had completely reverted to his original form after they had removed Mr. Buu, Goku proclaimed "We did it!" to indicate that they had succeeded in weakening him enough.

So as you see, their comments about Buu don't synch up in a way to indicate that Goku was agreeing with him, as Vegeta was talking about his physical size while Goku was talking about his battle power having decreased.

1) Kid Boo hid his real power level
2) Goku's face while he says "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." is the exact same face Vegeta has when he is saying "Heh... heh heh heh. He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Therefore the clear conclusion is that Goku said that in an arrogant, cocky tone, just like Vegeta was. And thus wasn't a valid assessment of Kid Boo. Just like Vegeta admitted to underestimating Kid Boo, Goku also did based on their tones & faces being the exact same.

[Confidence Matters]

Haven't been able to say this in a while but, we got a CODE PINK. We were doing so well.

Anyways my answer to this is Boohan>Bootenks>South Boo>Booccolo(w/boys)>Booccolo>Super Boo>Kid Boo>Fat Boo. I have yet to decide on the skinny Boo matter yet.

Aaaand your reason is?

[singsing]

Haven't been able to say this in a while but, we got a CODE PINK. We were doing so well.

Anyways my answer to this is Boohan>Bootenks>South Boo>Booccolo(w/boys)>Booccolo>Super Boo>Kid Boo>Fat Boo. I have yet to decide on the skinny Boo matter yet.

Aaaand your reason is?

Character statements and established plot. Except I guess the South Buu/Buuccolo is a tossup.

[dbzfan7]

Haven't been able to say this in a while but, we got a CODE PINK. We were doing so well.

Anyways my answer to this is Boohan>Bootenks>South Boo>Booccolo(w/boys)>Booccolo>Super Boo>Kid Boo>Fat Boo. I have yet to decide on the skinny Boo matter yet.

Aaaand your reason is?

People have, and probably will list the reasons I've said before. This ain't the first topic with this subject I've discussed this in. I've learned from the last several times this topic comes up that it's best to not even bother. Things go back and forth, get heated, and eventually end up locked. So I'm just stating my opinion, and leaving it at that.

[Confidence Matters]

Haven't been able to say this in a while but, we got a CODE PINK. We were doing so well.

Anyways my answer to this is Boohan>Bootenks>South Boo>Booccolo(w/boys)>Booccolo>Super Boo>Kid Boo>Fat Boo. I have yet to decide on the skinny Boo matter yet.

Aaaand your reason is?

Character statements and established plot. Except I guess the South Buu/Buuccolo is a tossup.

Fact is, there's NO statement, in the manga or otherwise, that Southern Kai strengthened Kid Boo, nor affected his nature (Since Herms' translation is up for interpretation/inconclusive for its "Absorption", VizBig takes precedence over his line, and VIZBIG SAID SOULS KID BOO ATE TAMED HIM). Therefore it is logical, UNTIL NOTED/PROVEN OTHERWISE, Kid Boo is at least equal to (or, based on the VizBig translations which takes precedence over Herms' translation that is up for interpretation, STRONGER than) Buff Boo.
That same Buff Boo is stronger than Super Boo. Thus, Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo.


Nothing ever states Boo's power went down from Buff Boo to Kid Boo (just like nothing ever states Kid Boo's power went up when he became Buff Boo). "We're almost there/We did it!" not only is NOT a statement saying Kid Boo's power dropped, and not only can be interpreted as Goku & Vegeta being cocky based on Kid Boo's docile state/ki/appearance (look at their arrogant faces when they first assess Kid Boo), but it was quite clear they both underestimated Kid Boo because they later admit Kid Boo is much stronger than they thought. Elder Kai, not Kibito Kai, after they get to safety away from the kai planet before Goku fight Kid Boo, is seen STILL screaming at Goku & Vegeta to NOT fight one-on-one like idiots, but to work together.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Boo had 2 transformations: the 1st being the South Kaioshin Boo and the 2nd being Kid Boo. When he transformed into the 1st form, his power was noted to be increasing. The same isn't said during the 2nd. They're only wondering how long he's going to take before it's done.

Also, the point of the original dialogue is to establish that there's no way of telling if both affected him or not. What we do know is that South Kaioshin never made Boo more controllable while Dai Kaioshin did. The dialogue from Kaioshin and the Daizenshuu makes that pretty clear. I don't recall Goku saying anything about Kid Boo being stronger than he thought. That was what Vegeta said about Kid Boo and Goku.

[Darkprince410]

These are statements from the manga ladies and gentlemen. There is no argument here. People need to stop appealing to popularity and use their brains.

Except that the one statement you're adhering to has been shown to be open to interpretation when translated accurately from its original Japanese version, and that Viz's translation has room for error, especially when the "souls" part doesn't even occur in the original manga whatsoever. As far as what's shown and stated in the manga, the simplest facts are Goku is weaker than Evil Buu, Goku is stronger than Pure Buu, and therefore Evil Buu is stronger than Pure Buu.

Therefore it is logical, UNTIL NOTED/PROVEN OTHERWISE, Kid Boo is at least equal to (or, based on the VizBig translations which takes precedence over Herms' translation that is up for interpretation, STRONGER than) Buff Boo.

Given that Goku was certain that he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu, stated that South Kaioushin Buu had grown stronger rather than weaker, and then exclaims in excitement over them succeeding in weakening him to the point that they can manage something when he changes to Pure Buu...yeah...pretty clear that there was a power drop. Besides, he was confident to the very end that he had the capacity to defeat Pure Buu, which means that at no point did Pure Buu show any level of power past what he thought he could beat, yet he was so certain that he and Vegeta would lose against Evil Buu that he wasn't going to even try.

(Since Herms' translation is up for interpretation/inconclusive for its "Absorption", VizBig takes precedence over his line, and VIZBIG SAID SOULS KID BOO ATE TAMED HIM)

Except that it's Rou Kaioushin saying "souls", and in that same set of speech bubbles in the original manga, the word soul (or souls) isn't even mentioned. They essentially came up with that line out of nowhere.

[Hitiro]

Right after tanking Goku's best attack (SSJ3 kamehameha), he delays his regeneration and spawns dancing and trolling around, clearly indicating he doesn't take Goku SSJ3 serious.

Just because Boo can regenerate and return himself to full strength doesn't mean he was holding back. He could still be fighting to his full potential and be messing about in between. I hardly think Gotenks was holding back after he became SSJ3 despite his obvious show-boating.

It is unlikely that he was just fooling around in that one sole instance. It would not make sense for Kid Boo to go 100% and then randomly just stop taking Goku serious, especially after an attack of that magnitude. If anything, that attack would worry/enrage Kid Boo to truly go mad and destroy the universe. But he didn't, because all of those warriors on the Kai planet were a joke to him.

At SSJ3 Goku's present level he couldn't deal an attack that would be fatal to Pure Boo. So Pure Boo could do what he liked. Goku and Vegeta are of the affirmation that if Goku were to go full power as a SSJ3 against Pure Boo that he would be able to kill Pure Boo. Nothing disputes that.

Even if Kid Boo was going 100% the entire time, it doesn't change the fact that Boo without kais restricting/taming him (Kid Boo) is stronger and more dangerous than Boo with kais restricting/taming him (Super Boo).

It is hard to tell whether the Kaioshin was on about a singular Kai restricting Boo or multiple. Because in Japanese plurals do of words do not translate. Therefore the Kaioshin could be on about one Kaioshin or both Kaioshin restricting him.

What we do have is dialogue saying that Goku and Vegeta couldn't handle Evil Boo. And dialogue saying that Goku could handle Pure Boo. Even if you assume that Pure Boo was stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The fact is that the difference between the two Boo's is apparent in the dialogue. Goku believes that they have no chance against Evil Boo unless they fuse. But he believes at full power he can kill Pure Boo. So the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo isn't huge which ever way you place these two characters. However, the difference between Evil Boo and SSJ3 Goku is huge, relative to their statements. The Evil Boo statement is clearly the more extreme method of dealing with the opponent.

Also, nothing TRULY states that South Kaioshin influenced Kid Boo's ki nor personality in anyway. Nothing at all. I'm just going by the Herms line in which Kibitoshin says something the along the lines of "the heart he gained through absorption" and the VizBig line that backs that up with Kibitoshin confirming that the souls Boo ate tamed/weakened him.

Like I said above, plurals of words don't translate, so it could merely be on about the Dai Kaioshin affecting Boo. We really can only confirm that Dai Kaioshin lowered Boo's power because the Kaioshin only said that. As for the South Kaioshin, he either did affect Boo or didn't. Unless we get some clarity from Akira Toriyama himself we'll never know because the line wasn't written to tell us if it was more than one person lowering his power. Hence why Herms put absorption rather than absorptions.

Therefore, Kid Boo and Buff Boo are AT THE VERY LEAST the same in power, which would put them above Super Boo.

These are statements from the manga ladies and gentlemen. There is no argument here. People need to stop appealing to popularity and use their brains.

You're the one ignoring the statement that Goku and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo but Goku said he could wipe out Pure Boo at full power as a SSJ3.

"1) We know for certain that neither of the two Kamehamehas Goku fired at Buu were at full power, because when Goku and Vegeta talk later about wiping him out with his full power, Goku comments that it's something he hasn't had the chance to do yet."

Except Goku specifically states he is going to go ALL OUT against Kid Boo. Thus, yes those TWO kamehameha's were indeed full powered ones - at least, the very first one launched at Kid Boo was because he had spent NO energy fighting and fired it 100% FRESH. Goku claiming if he gathered his energy for 1 minute, he'd be able to wipe Boo out is either a) Goku underestimating his SSJ3 abilities and/or referring to a special beam cannon type of attack where he is able to gather lots of ki that surpasses his nature max power level.

Goku may just be talking about going all out in transformations. Because we have specific statements from him and Vegeta later in the fight saying that he wasn't using his full power. But at some point he had started to try and use his full power to finish it, not having the chance to during the fight. You can't ignore these statements in favour of a statement made before the fight even started just because it suits your opinion. All dialogue must be looked at.

Goku clearly overestimated his SSJ3 because he sits there for MORE than a minute and he reverts back to normal. If he were dead, he would have gathered that energy to the levels he was when he first started and then fired the exact same kamehameha that Kid Boo ate the first time.

Goku clearly overestimated the stamina drain while he is alive, nobody is arguing that. If Goku had actually gone all out from the beginning then this fight would have been over straight away. As the dialogue we have is never disproved. If he says he could do it at full power then we must logically assume it is true until it is proven otherwise. But Goku obviously thought he could have some fun before finishing the battle. Because that is the way Goku is, he loves to fight.

SSJ3 clouds the user's judgement and skyrockets their arrogance. No saiyan is free from this, even the mastered SSJ's suffer from this - see Gohan SSJ2's arrogance during the Cell Games for instance.

Mastered SSJ has no bearing on what SSJ2 Gohan did. Because SSJ2 is different from the mastered SSJ form. I don't think Goku was arrogant during the fight. He just didn't realise that the stamina drain of SSJ3 on a living body would be that extreme. Understandable considering the guy has no experience using the form in a living body. All of his time using the form had been spent while he was dead.

As for Vegeta claiming Goku can defeat Kid Boo with Full Power SSJ3, that's just Vegeta being arrogant about the saiyan's ability because he is ultra-proud of Goku.

Not really, Vegeta is not a character to be arrogant about anybodies ability other than his own. He knew Goku was not going all out. As testament to all of the times people have sensed Ki and known that people were holding back. Characters know when someone isn't fighting at 100% they won't know what their 100% is until they demonstrate it though. Look back when Goku fought Cell. Or when he fought Freeza. Goku knew that Freeza was holding back but he didn't believe that Freeza only needed 50% of his power to beat him. But Goku could not judge whether he was bluffing or not because when a character is holding back you know they are holding back but not by how much. For all Goku knew Freeza was already at 90% of his power.

Thus, Kid Boo > Goku SSJ3.

Pure Boo > SSJ3 Goku at less than full power, yeah. The manga never suggests that Goku couldn't beat Boo at full power because as we find out Goku never uses it. Goku and Vegeta are adamant that full power as SSJ3 would be enough though.

1) Kid Boo hid his real power level

Where is the proof of this? Characters who can sense Ki know when another character is hiding their real power. They may not know how much power they are hiding but they certainly know when someone isn't at full power. Neither Goku nor Vegeta suggest that Pure Boo was holding back.

2) Goku's face while he says "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." is the exact same face Vegeta has when he is saying "Heh... heh heh heh. He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Therefore the clear conclusion is that Goku said that in an arrogant, cocky tone, just like Vegeta was. And thus wasn't a valid assessment of Kid Boo. Just like Vegeta admitted to underestimating Kid Boo, Goku also did based on their tones & faces being the exact same.

The problem with your point here is Goku says "We did it!" we did what exactly? Was it their goal to decrease Boo's size? No. Their goal inside Boo was to decrease his power to a level where they could manage it. There is no reason to assume that Goku just shut off his ability to sense mid-way through Boo's transformation and relied solely on his size to ascertain he had gotten weaker. Goku confirmed that Boo's power increased when he became Buff Boo. So are you telling me from this point on Goku stopped keeping track of Boo's Ki?

I honestly don't think so.

[rereboy]

- Goku clearly states that he and Vegeta have no chance against Super Buu without fusing (looking nervous or scared as he is saying it);

- Vegeta threatens to rip Good Buu out of Super Buu, saying that he expects Buu to become weaker if he does so. He then rips Good Buu out of Super Buu;

- Super Buu reverts to Buff Buu. Goku and Vegeta notice that Buff Buu had an increase in power compared to Super Buu and they start to get worried and wonder what's going on since that wasn't what they were expecting, they were expecting Buu to drop in power, hopefully to a manageable level;

- Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, and Goku and Vegeta, who had been tracking Buu's power a moment before, immediately become relieved and celebrate with Goku saying "we did it!", and Vegeta even mocks Buu's size. Some people argue that their reaction is purely due to Buu's size, but that argument is illogical since they had been monitoring his Ki a moment before and they were expecting for Buu's power to drop, hopefully to a manageable level, so it would be incomprehensible that they would suddenly stop monitoring his Ki and celebrate the success of their endeavor if Buu hadn't in fact lost enough power to be manageable;

- Even after Kid Buu destroys Earth, Goku and Vegeta don't change their mind about being able to handle Kid Buu without fusion;

- Even after fighting Kid Buu, Goku is still convinced that he can beat Kid Buu, declaring he just needs 1 minute do accumulate enough power to finish him off in one attack, which is never contradicted;

- Goku fails to accumulate the necessary power only because he didn't realize that keeping SSJ3 in a living body would be much harder than in a dead body;

- There are no statements or actions stating or showing that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu in the manga. Statements like that only exist in the anime.

Conclusion: Super Buu > Kid Buu.

[Confidence Matters]

"Except that the one statement you're adhering to has been shown to be open to interpretation when translated accurately from its original Japanese version, and that Viz's translation has room for error, especially when the "souls" part doesn't even occur in the original manga whatsoever. As far as what's shown and stated in the manga, the simplest facts are Goku is weaker than Evil Buu, Goku is stronger than Pure Buu, and therefore Evil Buu is stronger than Pure Buu."

Thus, it's why we will go by the very next best translation - which happens to be OFFICIAL - which is VizBig's line. Which means Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo.

If Herms' lines are inconclusive/"up for interpretation," then VizBig's line takes precedence over it. VizBig lines states BOTH souls tamed/weakened Boo. Period.

Given that Goku was certain that he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu,

Fact.

stated that South Kaioushin Buu had grown stronger rather than weaker,

Fact.

and then exclaims in excitement over them succeeding in weakening him to the point that they can manage something when he changes to Pure Buu...yeah...pretty clear that there was a power drop.

He would have noted Kid Boo's chi/power dropped. He didn't. He simply stated they MIGHT be able to manage something now. Because he saw Kid Boo's infantile/docile/suppressed state. Proof of Kid Boo holding back at that moment: soon as he spawned he launched a weak ass ki blast that was easily deflected by Vegeta SS1.

Goku was being arrogant, hence his facial expression and thus tone. This line to determine Kid Boo's power in relation to Buff/Super Boo is irrelevant. if there is ever a line that could be up for interpretation, it's this one - especially given the very next few pages.

Besides, he was confident to the very end that he had the capacity to defeat Pure Buu, which means that at no point did Pure Buu show any level of power past what he thought he could beat, yet he was so certain that he and Vegeta would lose against Evil Buu that he wasn't going to even try.

Except that it's Rou Kaioushin saying "souls", and in that same set of speech bubbles in the original manga, the word soul (or souls) isn't even mentioned. They essentially came up with that line out of nowhere.

VizBig is an official source, they were hired to make translate and whoever is in charge of review/editing the product before shipping concluded it was good. Therefore, no matter how erroneous you feel that line to be, it is 100% official and thus 100% true.

Herms' line is inconclusive so VizBig doesn't have competition regarding that line.

Blame Akira for being vague as fuck.

Just because Boo can regenerate and return himself to full strength doesn't mean he was holding back. He could still be fighting to his full potential and be messing about in between. I hardly think Gotenks was holding back after he became SSJ3 despite his obvious show-boating.

At SSJ3 Goku's present level he couldn't deal an attack that would be fatal to Pure Boo. So Pure Boo could do what he liked.

But that's the whole tragic point, my boy.

Goku and Vegeta are of the affirmation that if Goku were to go full power as a SSJ3 against Pure Boo that he would be able to kill Pure Boo. Nothing disputes that.

Except feats in the manga, and statements from Elder Kai who is wiser than both Goku & Vegeta combined.

Elder Kai insist they fuse again, Elder Kai & Kibitoshin confirm the souls/absorptions tamed/weakened Boo.

Thus establishes that Kid Boo was beyond both Goku & Vegeta, and establishes Buff Boo is weaker than Kid Boo, or at the very least (if we go by Herms' inconclusive/vague line), equal to Buff Boo.

None of which is disputed.

It is hard to tell whether the Kaioshin was on about a singular Kai restricting Boo or multiple. Because in Japanese plurals do of words do not translate. Therefore the Kaioshin could be on about one Kaioshin or both Kaioshin restricting him.

Well VizBig supports this. Kibitoshin supports this also by fearing Kid Boo more than anyone else ever.

Thus, it is true that both kais weakened Boo. Restricted Super Boo. Without these influences, Kid Boo was more powerful.

What we do have is dialogue saying that Goku and Vegeta couldn't handle Evil Boo. And dialogue saying that Goku could handle Pure Boo. Even if you assume that Pure Boo was stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The fact is that the difference between the two Boo's is apparent in the dialogue. Goku believes that they have no chance against Evil Boo unless they fuse. But he believes at full power he can kill Pure Boo. So the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo isn't huge which ever way you place these two characters. However, the difference between Evil Boo and SSJ3 Goku is huge, relative to their statements. The Evil Boo statement is clearly the more extreme method of dealing with the opponent.

Goku needed a plan to fight Kid Boo still. Not only thing, they dire need of fusion was still present against Kid Boo given that Elder Kai heavily insists they fuse again. As for Goku thinking he could kill Kid Boo by himself - AHAHA! - he tried and failed miserably. He lied/overestimated himself to look cool to Vegeta and due to his saiyan genes causing him to not think rationally. He got way overconfident.

Like I said above, plurals of words don't translate, so it could merely be on about the Dai Kaioshin affecting Boo. We really can only confirm that Dai Kaioshin lowered Boo's power because the Kaioshin only said that. As for the South Kaioshin, he either did affect Boo or didn't. Unless we get some clarity from Akira Toriyama himself we'll never know because the line wasn't written to tell us if it was more than one person lowering his power. Hence why Herms put absorption rather than absorptions.

Yet VizBig confirms it to be plural with SOULS in their OFFICIAL translation. It takes precedence over Herms line here.

You're the one ignoring the statement that Goku and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo but Goku said he could wipe out Pure Boo at full power as a SSJ3.

They tried this exact strategy and FAILED. Goku had nothing for Kid Boo as I already proved. See: lack of absorption, dancing around, tanking ALL of Goku's best attacks, etc.

"1) We know for certain that neither of the two Kamehamehas Goku fired at Buu were at full power, because when Goku and Vegeta talk later about wiping him out with his full power, Goku comments that it's something he hasn't had the chance to do yet."

Except Goku specifically states he is going to go ALL OUT against Kid Boo. Thus, yes those TWO kamehameha's were indeed full powered ones - at least, the very first one launched at Kid Boo was because he had spent NO energy fighting and fired it 100% FRESH. Goku claiming if he gathered his energy for 1 minute, he'd be able to wipe Boo out is either a) Goku underestimating his SSJ3 abilities and/or referring to a special beam cannon type of attack where he is able to gather lots of ki that surpasses his nature max power level.
Goku may just be talking about going all out in transformations. Because we have specific statements from him and Vegeta later in the fight saying that he wasn't using his full power. But at some point he had started to try and use his full power to finish it, not having the chance to during the fight. You can't ignore these statements in favour of a statement made before the fight even started just because it suits your opinion. All dialogue must be looked at.

Goku clearly overestimated the stamina drain while he is alive, nobody is arguing that. If Goku had actually gone all out from the beginning then this fight would have been over straight away. As the dialogue we have is never disproved. If he says he could do it at full power then we must logically assume it is true until it is proven otherwise. But Goku obviously thought he could have some fun before finishing the battle. Because that is the way Goku is, he loves to fight.

Mastered SSJ has no bearing on what SSJ2 Gohan did. Because SSJ2 is different from the mastered SSJ form. I don't think Goku was arrogant during the fight. He just didn't realise that the stamina drain of SSJ3 on a living body would be that extreme. Understandable considering the guy has no experience using the form in a living body. All of his time using the form had been spent while he was dead.

I remember reading somewhere, or maybe it's because of the games where Goku's KI is the one dropping fast, not his stamina. But wow I think you're right, SSj3 only drains stamina rapidly... this would mean Goku was at full power the entire time, at full KI, he just didn't have the stamina. Which would solidify his statement about going ALL OUT, and solidifying the fact that those 2 Kamehamehas were indeed at full ki/power. Yet Kid Boo was untouched.

This closes the case on Kid Boo > SSJ3 Goku.

Vegeta is not a character to be arrogant about anybodies ability other than his own. He knew Goku was not going all out. As testament to all of the times people have sensed Ki and known that people were holding back. Characters know when someone isn't fighting at 100% they won't know what their 100% is until they demonstrate it though. Look back when Goku fought Cell. Or when he fought Freeza. Goku knew that Freeza was holding back but he didn't believe that Freeza only needed 50% of his power to beat him. But Goku could not judge whether he was bluffing or not because when a character is holding back you know they are holding back but not by how much. For all Goku knew Freeza was already at 90% of his power.

Vegeta at that point had a change of heart and was rooting for Goku like if he was himself.

Pure Boo > SSJ3 Goku at less than full power, yeah. The manga never suggests that Goku couldn't beat Boo at full power because as we find out Goku never uses it. Goku and Vegeta are adamant that full power as SSJ3 would be enough though.

That was clearly an overestimation on their part because Goku had already fired a full-powered attack and nothing happened. They were most likely referring to a special beam cannon-like attack, they tried to gather the energy and Goku reverted to normal. O V E R E S T I M A T I O N on both their parts. Vegeta was just hyped up for SSJ3 and tried to give Goku morale. Hell, Vegeta even says Goku is more powerful than he thought - wtf? Vegeta saw a dead SSJ3 who is clearly superior to the live SSJ3, he knows SSJ3 is 4x Goku SSJ2, how would Goku become stronger in a day? He didn't train, nor fight to the death (no zenkai), how is Goku stronger than Vegeta thought?

Morale Boost, plain and simple.

The problem with your point here is Goku says "We did it!" we did what exactly? Was it their goal to decrease Boo's size? No. Their goal inside Boo was to decrease his power to a level where they could manage it. There is no reason to assume that Goku just shut off his ability to sense mid-way through Boo's transformation and relied solely on his size to ascertain he had gotten weaker. Goku confirmed that Boo's power increased when he became Buff Boo. So are you telling me from this point on Goku stopped keeping track of Boo's Ki?

I honestly don't think so.

And yet Goku never mentions Kid Boo's ki dropping. The whole "we did it!" line could be interpreted as Goku seeing Kid Boo as a more manageable Boo due to NOT his size/height, but because of his INFANCY. He was a child for crying out loud. Look how Vegeta reacts, check his tone/facial expression when he expresses his reaction to Kid Boo. Goku's is the EXACT SAME.

Even if you choose not to see it that way, fine. Say Goku did feel Kid Boo's power lower than Buff Boo/Super Boo - that would be ONLY because Kid Boo was CLEARLY holding back.

Where is the proof of this? Characters who can sense Ki know when another character is hiding their real power. They may not know how much power they are hiding but they certainly know when someone isn't at full power. Neither Goku nor Vegeta suggest that Pure Boo was holding back.

Kid Boo launched a weak ki blast that Vegeta was able to easily react to & deflect while in SSJ1 (not even a full powered SSJ1 ki blast). If Kid Boo decided to launch a blast at Earth while not holding back a lot, well.. we saw what happened.

Kid Boo shows up on the Kai planet and FALLS ASLEEP, IN TOTAL DISREGARD OF THE WARRIORS.

Kid Boo was having fun fighting Goku (who went ALL OUT) and was virtually unscathed during their fight, despite eating Goku's most fiercest attacks (2 full powered kamehameha's). After he respawns from tanking the kamehameha, he starts to dance and have the time of his life.

Kid Boo without absolutely any influence within him PUNCHES Mr Satan square in the face and Hercule not only lives, but isn't even KO'd or hardly freakin scratched.

What more evidence does anyone need that Kid Boo was never at full power?

When facing Goku SSj3, had Goku been a lick superior, Kid Boo would have resorted to ABSORPTION, AS HE ALWAYS DOES. In order to fight Goku more comfortably, he would have either absorbed Vegeta who we KNOW would not have put up a fight due to the massive difference in power levels (Kid Boo was too strong), or simply attempted to absorb Goku himself. HE DIDN'T DO THIS. THEREFORE GOKU WAS NOT A THREAT TO KID BOO AT ALL.

This means Goku overestimated himself and underestimated Kid Boo in order to look cool to Vegeta.

This is all proven fact straight from the manga. Undisputable.

So that establishes Goku's statements about Kid Boo as NULL. VOID. INVALID. Stop using them to underpower Kid Boo just because both Goku AND Vegeta overestimated the situation and their abilities while underestimating Kid Boo.

It is stated OFFICIALLY that Sothern Kai-absorbed Boo (Buff Boo) is stronger than Super Boo. It is never noted that Southern kai increased/decreased Kid Boo's power back in the day. Thus, by default, Kid Boo is equal to Southern Kai-absorbed Boo (Buff Boo).

Kid Boo > Super Boo

[Confidence Matters]

- Goku clearly states that he and Vegeta have no chance against Super Buu without fusing (looking nervous or scared as he is saying it);

- Vegeta threatens to rip Good Buu out of Super Buu, saying that he expects Buu to become weaker if he does so. He then rips Good Buu out of Super Buu;

- Super Buu reverts to Buff Buu. Goku and Vegeta notice that Buff Buu had an increase in power compared to Super Buu and they start to get worried and wonder what's going on since that wasn't what they were expecting, they were expecting Buu to drop in power, hopefully to a manageable level;

- Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, and Goku and Vegeta, who had been tracking Buu's power a moment before, immediately become relieved and celebrate with Goku saying "we did it!", and Vegeta even mocks Buu's size. Some people argue that their reaction is purely due to Buu's size, but that argument is illogical since they had been monitoring his Ki a moment before and they were expecting for Buu's power to drop, hopefully to a manageable level, so it would be incomprehensible that they would suddenly stop monitoring his Ki and celebrate the success of their endeavor if Buu hadn't in fact lost enough power to be manageable;

It is beyond proven Kid Boo was holding back his power when he reverted back;

- Kid Boo launched a weak ki blast that Vegeta was able to easily react to & deflect while in SSJ1 (not even a full powered SSJ1 ki blast). If Kid Boo decided to launch a blast at Earth while not holding back a lot, well.. we saw what happened. This is proof beyond any doubt Kid Boo had a HEAVILY suppressed power level.

- Kid Boo shows up on the Kai planet and FALLS ASLEEP, IN TOTAL DISREGARD OF THE WARRIORS.

- Kid Boo was having fun fighting Goku (who went ALL OUT) and was virtually unscathed during their fight, despite eating Goku's most fiercest attacks (2 full powered kamehameha's). After he respawns from tanking the kamehameha, he starts to dance and have the time of his life.

- Kid Boo without absolutely any influence within him PUNCHES Mr Satan square in the face and (the H-word) not only lives, but isn't even KO'd or hardly freakin scratched.

What more evidence does anyone need that Kid Boo was never at full power?

- Even after Kid Buu destroys Earth, Goku and Vegeta don't change their mind about being able to handle Kid Buu without fusion;

False, they STILL believe they need a plan in order to defeat Kid Boo, meaning they WERE NOT considering taking him head-on. It is until Kid Boo spawns out of nowhere that they decide to fight - BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE, and because it is the proud, honorable thing to do.

- Even after fighting Kid Buu, Goku is still convinced that he can beat Kid Buu, declaring he just needs 1 minute do accumulate enough power to finish him off in one attack, which is never contradicted;

It is contradicted, MORE than a minute passed and Goku reverted back to normal. Meaning Goku was NEVER going to finish Kid Boo off on his own, EVER.

- Goku fails to accumulate the necessary power only because he didn't realize that keeping SSJ3 in a living body would be much harder than in a dead body;

He was alive when he transformed to fight Bootenks for a moment. He knew. He was also SSJ3 against Fat Boo, so at the very least, seeing how tired it made him when he was dead, he had THAT as a reference. That reference was brutal enough to know its limits.

- There are no statements or actions stating or showing that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu in the manga. Statements like that only exist in the anime.

It is OFFICIALLY stated in the manga the souls Boo ate tamed/weakened him. Thus, without those souls within him restricting him, he is more powerful. Super Boo was restricted, Kid Boo was not. Super Boo minus Good Boo equals more powerful. Super Boo minus Good Boo results in Kid Boo.

Actual conclusion: Kid Boo > Super Boo

[Zephyr]

Thus, it's why we will go by the very next best translation - which happens to be OFFICIAL - which is VizBig's line. Which means Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo.

If Herms' lines are inconclusive/"up for interpretation," then VizBig's line takes precedence over it. VizBig lines states BOTH souls tamed/weakened Boo. Period.

So if I'm following you correctly:

1. "Toriyama wrote something vague that can be interpreted in a number of ways"
2. "Viz went with one of these interpretations"
3. "Therefore, this is the interpretation that is most in line with what Toriyama intended to convey"

That's not how basic critical thinking works, though.

[Confidence Matters]

Thus, it's why we will go by the very next best translation - which happens to be OFFICIAL - which is VizBig's line. Which means Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo.

If Herms' lines are inconclusive/"up for interpretation," then VizBig's line takes precedence over it. VizBig lines states BOTH souls tamed/weakened Boo. Period.

So if I'm following you correctly:

1. "Toriyama wrote something vague that can be interpreted in a number of ways"
2. "Viz went with one of these interpretations"
3. "Therefore, this is the interpretation that is most in line with what Toriyama intended to convey"

That's not how basic critical thinking works, though.

Bruh. VizBig editions of the manga is an OFFICIAL release. Akira let it slide, and so did the other heads of the series. Despite countless revisions.

[Duo]

Thus, it's why we will go by the very next best translation - which happens to be OFFICIAL - which is VizBig's line. Which means Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo.

If Herms' lines are inconclusive/"up for interpretation," then VizBig's line takes precedence over it. VizBig lines states BOTH souls tamed/weakened Boo. Period.

So if I'm following you correctly:

1. "Toriyama wrote something vague that can be interpreted in a number of ways"
2. "Viz went with one of these interpretations"
3. "Therefore, this is the interpretation that is most in line with what Toriyama intended to convey"

That's not how basic critical thinking works, though.

Bruh. VizBig editions of the manga is an OFFICIAL release. Akira let it slide, and so did the other heads of the series. Despite countless revisions.

The translation Viz uses for the Manga has never been revised (also, I'm pretty sure that Akira Toriyama does not speak/read English), and it has been demonstrated to contain several points of translation that are outright inaccurate to the original version. Is it a good product overall? Yes. Is that an excuse to focus only on the one version in discussions and then proceed to ignore more accurate information? No. If you want to believe Viz is absolutely perfect and that their mistakes somehow retroactively change the story in an "official" capacity that you must accept, you really have no business pushing that on others.

This particular subject of debate has been one I've engaged over 200 or 300 hundred hours of writing into over the course of the last 11 years. I'm not interested in rehashing particularly, but I can say with great confidence that you will not sway anybody who has read into this subject previously. Even those whom prefer the anime know that the line inserted into filler about kid Buu being the strongest tend to realize that was not a correct statement.

[Zephyr]

Bruh. VizBig editions of the manga is an OFFICIAL release. Akira let it slide, and so did the other heads of the series. Despite countless revisions.

"Bruh". Just because an officially licensed adaptation went with one interpretation of "Akira's" vague writing, and "Akira" did not voice any concerns over this, it does not logically follow that said interpretation of "Akira's" vague writing is the one that "Akira" had in mind when drawing the manga roughly 20 years ago.

What is being debated is what "Akira" had in mind when drawing the manga roughly 20 years ago. There's no point in bringing an adaptation of the source material into the discussion, official or otherwise, when it does nothing to help us figure out what "Akira" himself had in mind when drawing the manga roughly 20 years ago.

Am I making any sense here?

[Kaboom]

Mr. Toriyama does not approve, critique, or even know about the nuances of non-Japanese translations.