kid buu: the theories part 3

[dragonballer]

kid buu's healing factor is better than other buus

let's compare:
super buu's regeneration.there was enough time for piccolo's warning and gotenks to do another attack.

Spoiler:

kid buu.more half of his body was destroyed and he regenerated his body faster than ssj3 goku running.

Spoiler:

super buu's whole body was destroyed. his regeneration was so slow that gotenks and piccolo had time to burn him piece by piece.

Spoiler:

kid buu was destroyed and he is back immediately.

Spoiler:

his healing factor is so efficient that gohan or gotenks can't easily kill kid buu alone.

Spoiler:

even both gohan and gotenks are stronger than goku,but goku thinks it's a better idea they team up,since they can't kill buu with one hit.buu,on other hand,can absorb them or use transform beam.

maybe goku is saving gohan and gotenks for a backup plan,but goku agreed genki-dama was a better choice.

Spoiler:

even kaioh and piccolo agreed that genki-dama was a good idea. piccolo knows about the big power gap between gohan and buu,but piccolo still thinks gohan wouldn't kill buu easily because of his superior healing factor.

Spoiler:

[Hitiro]

kid buu's healing factor is better than other buus

While I admit that the panels for Evil Boo's and Pure Boo's regeneration suggest Pure Boo's regeneration is a lot faster there are problems with your points here. First of all you are saying that X character is saying Y when you are relying on scanlations that are incredibly inaccurate. Secondly, Goku did not agree that the Genki Dama was a better choice. Even in the scanlations that is a stretch. All he was saying to Vegeta is he did a good job in coming up with a plan. That doesn't necessarily mean he was agreeing that the Genki Dama was the better choice. Thirdly, where are you getting that Piccolo thinks Gohan won't be able to kill Boo easily because of his healing factor? The only time Piccolo comments on Gohan like that is when he doesn't know how powerful Gohan had become.

The last scanlation you posted certainly doesn't say anything about Gohan not being powerful enough to blow Pure Boo away if you're talking about that. Other than that I would agree with you that Pure Boo's regeneration seems faster.

Edit: I also noticed another problem. You say "even both gohan and gotenks are stronger than goku,but goku thinks it's a better idea they team up,since they can't kill buu with one hit.buu,on other hand,can absorb them or use transform beam." If they are stronger than Goku then only one of them would be needed because Goku says himself he could beat Pure Boo at full power, by himself. So why couldn't Gohan or SSJ3 Gotenks do it if a less powerful character can? Furthermore, Goku says nothing about Gotenks and Gohan teaming up to beat Boo. He is literally stating that Vegeta will bring them back to life so they will be able to fight. That doesn't mean they're going to fight together. Goku says before they fight Pure Boo that he and Vegeta will fight with their own power. But he never says anything about Vegeta and himself fighting together. But you could take the way the line is said and construed it as Goku and Vegeta will fight together with the way it is said because it doesn't say they will fight together or they won't fight together.

[dragonballer]

kid buu's healing factor is better than other buus

While I admit that the panels for Evil Boo's and Pure Boo's regeneration suggest Pure Boo's regeneration is a lot faster there are problems with your points here. First of all you are saying that X character is saying Y when you are relying on scanlations that are incredibly inaccurate. Secondly, Goku did not agree that the Genki Dama was a better choice. Even in the scanlations that is a stretch. All he was saying to Vegeta is he did a good job in coming up with a plan. That doesn't necessarily mean he was agreeing that the Genki Dama was the better choice. Thirdly, where are you getting that Piccolo thinks Gohan won't be able to kill Boo easily because of his healing factor? The only time Piccolo comments on Gohan like that is when he doesn't know how powerful Gohan had become.

The last scanlation you posted certainly doesn't say anything about Gohan not being powerful enough to blow Pure Boo away if you're talking about that. Other than that I would agree with you that Pure Boo's regeneration seems faster.

1-true,that fan translation is not good,some parts just come with <untranslated>,but it's only english one i found.

2-goku agreed to use genki-dama when he could easily bring gohan and gotenks. he wanted to use genki-dama first.

3-piccolo knows gohan>>>>>>buu,and he said genki-dama is a good idea. if gohan could finish buu easily,he would have said "you idiots! just take gohan there and the universe will be saved in 2 seconds!"

i don't know japanese,so i can't show the original text.but let's some other translation of what piccolo said:

portuguese(brasil)-"the idea is so good that it doesn't seem to be vegeta's."

chinese-"that idea doesn't seem to be vegeta's style"

the scan-"vegeta is smater than i thought."

so,basically. piccolo is insulting vegeta while agrees that genki-dama is a good plan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta never ceases to surprise me.

From the English version.

[Darkprince410]

2-goku agreed to use genki-dama when he could easily bring gohan and gotenks. he wanted to use genki-dama first.

He actually had thought that Vegeta's plan was to bring them up to defeat Buu instead, which means that the first plan that came to mind for him was to bring the boys to Kaioushin Kai. He didn't even consider the Genki Dama as an option. In fact, this is what he initially said about the Genki Dama when Vegeta brought it up.

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”

He initially scoffed at the idea thinking it wouldn't work if he took genki from them like he normally does for it (see Vegeta and Freeza), and only hopped on board the idea after Vegeta explained that they'd be taking all the genki that they could, and that he decided they should use a Genki Dama because the people of the Earth needed to help in the protection of the Earth for once.

[Hitiro]

1-true,that fan translation is not good,some parts just come with <untranslated>,but it's only english one i found.

Even so, you shouldn't be using dialogue that isn't official anyway. Because anything can be said in scanlations. It's fine to quote dialogue from a credible source. You can just provide the quotes as text. Most of the people in these forums have an official translation of the manga to back up any quotes you provide from it. But using scanlations and treating them as correct information is just plain bad.

2-goku agreed to use genki-dama when he could easily bring gohan and gotenks. he wanted to use genki-dama first.

Not really, Goku was just listening to Vegeta. Because as Vegeta said "It's time the Earthling's saved themselves for once." Goku would have been the first to attempt a Genki Dama if he thought it was the best choice at the time. But Goku's first idea to come to his mind was to resurrect Gohan and Gotenks so one of them could fight. Honestly, if Gohan or Gotenks couldn't do the job then Vegeta would have stated it himself. He gave his reason for choosing the Genki Dama over the boys. It's a pretty lousy one, but it still a reason that has nothing to do with Gohan and Gotenks strength.

3-piccolo knows gohan>>>>>>buu,and he said genki-dama is a good idea. if gohan could finish buu easily,he would have said "you idiots! just take gohan there and the universe will be saved in 2 seconds!"

Using the Genki Dama is a relatively good idea. That does not mean that it is the best idea. If me and my friends are hungry and I say "Why don't we order from Pizza Hut?" and they say "Good idea." Does that mean that Pizza Hut is the best idea? I could have ordered Dominoes Pizza. We could have gone to Mc Donalds or subway. As for why Piccolo didn't say that, the Genki Dama isn't a bad idea and him saying that wouldn't have changed anything anyway. As far as Piccolo knows they can't hear him. The real reason why it didn't play out that way with Gohan is because Akira Toriyama must have an ending that has a lot of tension and where Goku is the victor. It hardly makes a good ending if Gohan or Gotenks arrive and blast Pure Boo away in no time at all.

I honestly don't agree with his reasoning for choosing the Genki Dama over Gohan or Gotenks. But making the Earthling's save their own lives for once is fine I guess. They had been saved a lot by Goku over the 20-30 years. And it still kind of helps tie the story back into the dragon balls. As none of this would have been possible without them just like Goku wouldn't have come this far without the dragon balls bringing him and his friends together. I think that Akira Toriyama could have found a way to prevent Gohan and Gotenks being usable and still rely on the Genki Dama though. Maybe reduce the Namekian dragon ball wishes to 2 with their upgrade to include wishing back lots of people.

i don't know japanese,so i can't show the original text.but let's some other translation of what piccolo said:

portuguese(brasil)-"the idea is so good that it doesn't seem to be vegeta's."

chinese-"that idea doesn't seem to be vegeta's style"

the scan-"vegeta is smater than i thought."

so,basically. piccolo is insulting vegeta while agrees that genki-dama is a good plan.

Like Super Saiyan Turlast x4 said, in the legitimate version of the English manga Piccolo says "Vegeta never ceases to surprise me." That doesn't automatically mean that Vegeta is some super genius and that the Genki Dama is the sole perfect solution to dealing with Pure Boo. It's just a surprising choice for Vegeta to get Goku to use the Genki Dama.

[Confidence Matters]

Although I'm of the very few here who understand that objectively, Kid Boo vs. Super Boo is either inconclusive (if we go by the original manga) or results in Kid Boo being stronger than Super Boo (all other DBZ mangas, especially the VizBig edition which is stated to be the most accurate of the official releases), just to play the devil's advocate here:

Kid Boo spawning much faster than Super Boo could be because Gotenks SSJ3's attacks were about 100 times more powerful than Goku SSJ3's attacks. So it takes Boo longer to recover from those attacks.

But then again, if Super Boo was truly stronger, it'd even itself out and Super Boo would be regenerating more or less as fast as Kid Boo regenerates.

But then again, it was against Gotenks SSJ1 that Super Boo was regenerating slowly against. And if Super Boo is truly stronger than Kid Boo, and stronger than Gotenks SSJ1, then why was he regeneration so slow (which Super Boo was NOT noted to be toying with Gotenks)? Especially considering the fact that some actually believe Kid Boo is roughly equal to SSJ3 Goku, and was regenerating hella quick?



So Boo can regenerate & recover super quick against an opponent who is allegedly his equal in raw ki/power, yet when an allegedly "stronger" version of himself is facing a lesser opponent than Goku SSJ3, he takes ages to do so?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM... . .

[Darkprince410]

But then again, it was against Gotenks SSJ1 that Super Boo was regenerating slowly against. And if Super Boo is truly stronger than Kid Boo, and stronger than Gotenks SSJ1, then why was he regeneration so slow (which Super Boo was NOT noted to be toying with Gotenks)? Especially considering the fact that some actually believe Kid Boo is roughly equal to SSJ3 Goku, and was regenerating hella quick?

We saw though that he didn't take Ssj Gotenks as any kind of serious threat, as he casually just opted to lie down and read a comic while sipping on a drink as Gotenks was bickering with his ghosts.

Likewise, Buu himself at least suggests that he was buying time during his fight with Ssj3 Gotenks, as he sensed Gohan's power from Kaioushin Kai and wanted to save Gotenks specifically to absorb him if it became necessary.

“It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

[Confidence Matters]

We saw though that he didn't take Ssj Gotenks as any kind of serious threat, as he casually just opted to lie down and read a comic while sipping on a drink as Gotenks was bickering with his ghosts.

Likewise, Buu himself at least suggests that he was buying time during his fight with Ssj3 Gotenks, as he sensed Gohan's power from Kaioushin Kai and wanted to save Gotenks specifically to absorb him if it became necessary.

“It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

That was only 1 instance, which was before Gotenks attacked seriously with the Ghosts. The second time around, Super Boo took a really long time to regenerate. Several pages actually, while Kid Boo tanked a full power kamehameha and regenerated instantly.

If you want to use that little instance to argue that Super Boo didn't take Gotenks seriously the entire fight and thus why he regenerated slower after the second Ghost attack, then that proves Kid Boo taking his sweet time regenerating and then DANCING against Goku is a clear indicator that Kid Boo was so much superior to Goku that he didn't take him serious either. Kid Boo also fell asleep instantly as soon as he spawned on the Kai planet.

Total disregard for Goku SSJ3.

There's also the lack of absorption, which Boo is seen ONLY using against Superior opponents.

So it is literally impossible for Goku SSJ3 to be equal to Kid Boo since saying that would be like saying Gotenks SSj1 is equal to Super Boo.

[dragonballer]

Even so, you shouldn't be using dialogue that isn't official anyway. Because anything can be said in scanlations. It's fine to quote dialogue from a credible source. You can just provide the quotes as text. Most of the people in these forums have an official translation of the manga to back up any quotes you provide from it. But using scanlations and treating them as correct information is just plain bad.

well,i checked one portuguese official manga and another fan translations with close meaning. so i thought i woulnd't be problem show it...

Not really, Goku was just listening to Vegeta. Because as Vegeta said "It's time the Earthling's saved themselves for once." Goku would have been the first to attempt a Genki Dama if he thought it was the best choice at the time. But Goku's first idea to come to his mind was to resurrect Gohan and Gotenks so one of them could fight. Honestly, if Gohan or Gotenks couldn't do the job then Vegeta would have stated it himself. He gave his reason for choosing the Genki Dama over the boys. It's a pretty lousy one, but it still a reason that has nothing to do with Gohan and Gotenks strength.

He actually had thought that Vegeta's plan was to bring them up to defeat Buu instead, which means that the first plan that came to mind for him was to bring the boys to Kaioushin Kai. He didn't even consider the Genki Dama as an option. In fact, this is what he initially said about the Genki Dama when Vegeta brought it up.

i think i used wrong words.what i wanted to say is,after listening vegeta's plan,goku could choose: 1-bring the sons, 2-use genki-dama and he chose to try option 2 first.

Using the Genki Dama is a relatively good idea. That does not mean that it is the best idea. If me and my friends are hungry and I say "Why don't we order from Pizza Hut?" and they say "Good idea." Does that mean that Pizza Hut is the best idea? I could have ordered Dominoes Pizza. We could have gone to Mc Donalds or subway. As for why Piccolo didn't say that, the Genki Dama isn't a bad idea and him saying that wouldn't have changed anything anyway. As far as Piccolo knows they can't hear him. The real reason why it didn't play out that way with Gohan is because Akira Toriyama must have an ending that has a lot of tension and where Goku is the victor. It hardly makes a good ending if Gohan or Gotenks arrive and blast Pure Boo away in no time at all.

I honestly don't agree with his reasoning for choosing the Genki Dama over Gohan or Gotenks. But making the Earthling's save their own lives for once is fine I guess. They had been saved a lot by Goku over the 20-30 years. And it still kind of helps tie the story back into the dragon balls. As none of this would have been possible without them just like Goku wouldn't have come this far without the dragon balls bringing him and his friends together. I think that Akira Toriyama could have found a way to prevent Gohan and Gotenks being usable and still rely on the Genki Dama though. Maybe reduce the Namekian dragon ball wishes to 2 with their upgrade to include wishing back lots of people.

well,if my friend come with that idea and i know there is better and free pizza in other place,i wouldn't say "good idea".piccolo's free pizza is right in front of him: gohan. piccolo can talk back,goku could hear the earthlings talking.he can,at least,send mental e-mail to kaioh like kami did.

the Earthling's save their own lives for once is fine,of course,it is a heartwarming ending . but it would have be better if it was coherent . i am sure goku would have wanted to save earth anyway,even the earthlings were being a dick.

all the drama about buu would destroy the world is very ridiculous if gohan can destroy him with one finger. it turns the big final into this: the heroes fighting to the death when the "save the world" button is right iin front of them all the time .

the only rational reason goku didn't want gohan there i could think is: absorption.

if buu absorbs gohan or gotenks,it is the end. but it couldn't happen if they can blow buu up with a yell.also,vegeta still thinks a kid buu borned from mr.buu can still destroy the world,even he will be a lot weaker. why? if the weaker kid buu still has that healing factor,he will still be able to absorb stronger enemies.

my theory can fix all the incoherence mentioned above.but a theory is just a theory ,we can still choose that old explaination that can answer all the in-universe questions: "because the plot said" .

[Darkprince410]

That was only 1 instance, which was before Gotenks attacked seriously with the Ghosts. The second time around, Super Boo took a really long time to regenerate. Several pages actually, while Kid Boo tanked a full power kamehameha and regenerated instantly.

If you want to use that little instance to argue that Super Boo didn't take Gotenks seriously the entire fight and thus why he regenerated slower after the second Ghost attack, then that proves Kid Boo taking his sweet time regenerating and then DANCING against Goku is a clear indicator that Kid Boo was so much superior to Goku that he didn't take him serious either. Kid Boo also fell asleep instantly as soon as he spawned on the Kai planet.

Total disregard for Goku SSJ3.

There's also the lack of absorption, which Boo is seen ONLY using against Superior opponents.

So it is literally impossible for Goku SSJ3 to be equal to Kid Boo since saying that would be like saying Gotenks SSj1 is equal to Super Boo.

By Goku's own admission though, he never used a full power Kamehameha at any point against Buu. He said he was thinking of doing it, but never actually had the chance to yet. Likewise, it's both indicators I was meaning that showed that he didn't consider Ssj Gotenks a threat, not just the drink part. He was casually lying there, sipping a drink when it came to Ssj Gotenks, and then for the vastly more powerful Ssj3 Gotenks, he still insinuated that he was keeping Ssj3 Gotenks around to absorb him. If he only saw Ssj3 Gotenks as future absorption fodder, then he certainly isn't going to consider the significantly weaker Ssj Gotenks any kind of legitimate threat.

Then there's also the statement by Piccolo about the fact that Gotenks wasn't strong enough be able to beat Evil Buu (which is why he destroyed the RoSaT's doorway), and it becomes pretty clear that, all around, there's no reason that Buu would consider Ssj Gotenks a legitimate threat.

With Ssj3 Goku and Pure Buu though, other than the one stated situation of him playing around following taking a Kamehameha, there's nothing indicating that he held back or wasn't using the full extent of his power. By Goku's own admission, he just couldn't put a dent in Buu's stamina, and though he never attempted to take Buu out with a full power blast, he was confident he could.

All that generally points to Pure Buu regenerating faster because he saw Goku as a legitimate threat, and Evil Buu taking his sweet time with regenerating because Ssj Gotenks wasn't.

[Confidence Matters]

By Goku's own admission though, he never used a full power Kamehameha at any point against Buu.

Goku states he is going to go all out against Kid Boo for the sake of the universe. Goku powers up to SSJ3, 100% fresh. Goku fires his most powerful attack, the kamehameha. Goku fails.

Pretty clear that was full power.

He said he was thinking of doing it, but never actually had the chance to yet. Likewise, it's both indicators I was meaning that showed that he didn't consider Ssj Gotenks a threat, not just the drink part. He was casually lying there, sipping a drink when it came to Ssj Gotenks, and then for the vastly more powerful Ssj3 Gotenks, he still insinuated that he was keeping Ssj3 Gotenks around to absorb him. If he only saw Ssj3 Gotenks as future absorption fodder, then he certainly isn't going to consider the significantly weaker Ssj Gotenks any kind of legitimate threat.

Gotenks SSJ3 is clearly stronger than Super Boo, because the dimensional rip by Gotenks was slightly bigger and didn't shrink as fast as Super Boo's did. Not to mention Piccolo outright insinuating Gotenks SSJ3 is at least equal to if not greater than Super Boo.

Then there's also the statement by Piccolo about the fact that Gotenks wasn't strong enough be able to beat Evil Buu (which is why he destroyed the RoSaT's doorway), and it becomes pretty clear that, all around, there's no reason that Buu would consider Ssj Gotenks a legitimate threat.

That was literally only because Gotenks SS1 sold himself incredibly short and said he didn't have any energy left.

With Ssj3 Goku and Pure Buu though, other than the one stated situation of him playing around following taking a Kamehameha, there's nothing indicating that he held back or wasn't using the full extent of his power.

After Kid Boo first appears, he launches a weak ki blast to destroy earth - it is deflected easily by Vegeta SSJ1. Kid Boo clearly held back his power at that point. And the fact during every single time Boo was serious, steam shoots out of his pores, yet Kid Boo never ever had steam shoot out of his pores ONCE, is evidence enough that Kid Boo never showed his full power. Not even against the Spirit Bomb.

Not to mention Kid Boo obviously lowering his power to punch Satan dead in the face (with zero inhibitions holding him back, he was pure evil with ZERO influence in him)

And I'll also bring up the fact that only Boo's can hurt other Boo's, or rather Djinn's be hurt only by other Djinn's (genies, magical attacks, etc.) so Goku was literally doing zero damage on his own. The only reason Kid Boo died was because the Spirit Bomb is a Godly technique with magical properties. Just like the only reason Vegito, Gotenks and Gohan were doing any damage to Boo was because they were powerful magical beings themselves.

SSJ3 is weird but it ain't magical like fusion, or magical like Elder Kai's magical potential-unlocking ritual.

By Goku's own admission, he just couldn't put a dent in Buu's stamina, and though he never attempted to take Buu out with a full power blast, he was confident he could.

Goku states he is going to go all out against Kid Boo for the sake of the universe. Goku powers up to SSJ3, 100% fresh. Goku fires his most powerful attack, the kamehameha. Goku fails.

Pretty clear that was full power.

Arrogance is what made him believe he had a shot against Kid Boo - Vegeta states that Boo's can only get hurt by Boo's. Goku on his own wasn't going to do anything to Kid Boo.

All that generally points to Pure Buu regenerating faster because he saw Goku as a legitimate threat, and Evil Buu taking his sweet time with regenerating because Ssj Gotenks wasn't.

[/quote]

By this exact same logic, the fact that Kid Boo took a nap as soon as he located Goku & Vegeta, and the fact that Kid Boo took his time to regenerate after that kamehameha means Kid Boo didn't see Goku as a legitimate threat neither.

[Darkprince410]

Goku states he is going to go all out against Kid Boo for the sake of the universe. Goku powers up to SSJ3, 100% fresh. Goku fires his most powerful attack, the kamehameha. Goku fails.

Then states later that he had been considering doing just that, but hadn't had a chance to yet.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

Which means even though he was himself at full power from the start, he didn't put all his power into the Kamehameha. Given that he didn't seem remotely fatigured or strained after firing it, this seems all the more likely to be the case.

Gotenks SSJ3 is clearly stronger than Super Boo, because the dimensional rip by Gotenks was slightly bigger and didn't shrink as fast as Super Boo's did. Not to mention Piccolo outright insinuating Gotenks SSJ3 is at least equal to if not greater than Super Boo.

We can't readily equate the size of the dimensional hole (or how quickly it closes) to the strength of the user, since depending on which way you look at it, Buu's rip was larger than Gotenks'. Likewise, we can't really tell the passage of time as far as the manga is concerned, so how fast it closed up can't readily be determined. Even if that was evidence suggesting anything, all it means is that Gotenks was stronger than what Buu was exhibiting at the time. However, given that his statement later indicates that he planned to keep Gotenks around as absorption fodder, supports that he didn't go all out against Gotenks so that he could absorb him if necessary.

And the fact during every single time Boo was serious, steam shoots out of his pores,

No, because that generally only happened when Buu was enraged, and even then, it wasn't a guaranteed situation. He clearly wasn't venting any steam when he was struggling against the Genki Dama, before or after Goku's strength was restored to him, a situation where he clearly should have been serious.

Goku states he is going to go all out against Kid Boo for the sake of the universe. Goku powers up to SSJ3, 100% fresh. Goku fires his most powerful attack, the kamehameha. Goku fails.

Again, Goku states later that he never had the chance yet to try and wipe him out with a full power blast, and given that he showed no sign of fatigue after firing the Kamehameha supports that it wasn't at full strength.

By this exact same logic, the fact that Kid Boo took a nap as soon as he located Goku & Vegeta, and the fact that Kid Boo took his time to regenerate after that kamehameha means Kid Boo didn't see Goku as a legitimate threat neither.

Goku was only a Super Saiya-jin when Buu fell asleep in front of him, and conveniently only started dancing around and not regenerating immediately once it was readily established that Goku had lost a great deal of ki due to the strain of Ssj3 (given that this was right as Goku was saying he needed a minute to gather ki). If he had been dancing around or showing any sign of playing around with Goku during the course of the fight, it'd be one thing, but given that the only time he was shown playing around (when it came to fighting Ssj3 Goku) was when Goku was needing time to recover ki, it supports that Buu found Goku a legitimate threat up to that point.

It still just comes down to it looking far more like the threat of the opponent playing a large part in how quickly Buu will regenerate following an attack. This isn't another "Which Buu is stronger" debate, so we should just leave a lot of that argument out of this, otherwise this topic will get locked most likely.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It was an uncharged Kamehameha. He never powered-up the attack at all.

[CortoMaltese]

BOG confirm Goku (Supa Saiya-jin 3) as the Strongest unfused character. Seems like some people take the Goku's words about Majin Buu (Super Buu) as a sign of weakness. We know later that Goku is Just a fucking liar when he says Majin Buu (Fat Buu) is not a problem. The same Majin Buu who seems too strong for him (chapter 476). He lies to Piccolo, that's it.
So he lies to Bejita.

The very first time Goku tells the truth is on the Kaioshinkai.
So i don't take the events before as a reliable facts.
Yes Majin Buu (Kid) is by far better on healing, he can perfectly copy Kibito Kaioshin in one instant.
Even Majin Buu (Gohan) can't copy the Shunkan Idou of Goku (Stated to be inferior).

In the original manga, Super Buu have a better body for fighting and a different Aura but nothing is said about a power up. Contrary to Kid Buu.

[Hitiro]

well,i checked one portuguese official manga and another fan translations with close meaning. so i thought i woulnd't be problem show it...

Well, there is no need to provide scanlations then. You could have just quoted your official Portuguese manga and be backed up. But your OP uses the lines from the scanlation as evidence/information for your theories. There are rules on the site that discourage the use of scanlations. Mods are frequently removing these sorts of scans.

i think i used wrong words.what i wanted to say is,after listening vegeta's plan,goku could choose: 1-bring the sons, 2-use genki-dama and he chose to try option 2 first.

His reason for choosing option 2 though is what Vegeta said "The Earthlings should save themselves for once." It doesn't really have any bearing on which was the best option. They are both valid options.

well,if my friend come with that idea and i know there is better and free pizza in other place,i wouldn't say "good idea".piccolo's free pizza is right in front of him: gohan. piccolo can talk back,goku could hear the earthlings talking.he can,at least,send mental e-mail to kaioh like kami did.

Well, I didn't say anything about "free pizza" just another pizza place. Of course if you are going to have free pizza then that is obviously the best option for it. Or possibly some other fast food place. It still doesn't detract from me having a good idea. As far as Gohan and Gotenks are concerned I wouldn't consider them "free pizza" level. They are just another option you can take rather than ordering from Pizza Hut. Or I assume that's how they saw it at the time. Goku, Vegeta and the rest of the people didn't think it would be so difficult for Goku to make the Genki Dama at the time. Until they actually tried it.

the Earthling's save their own lives for once is fine,of course,it is a heartwarming ending . but it would have be better if it was coherent . i am sure goku would have wanted to save earth anyway,even the earthlings were being a dick.

I don't disagree. It was a stupid way to end that arc of Dragon Ball. Like I said in my previous post there are better ways Akira Toriyama could have handled the "Goku saving the Earth" part of the story.

all the drama about buu would destroy the world is very ridiculous if gohan can destroy him with one finger. it turns the big final into this: the heroes fighting to the death when the "save the world" button is right iin front of them all the time .

It's not really drama. If you recall the first thing Boo tried to do when he came into existence is destroy Earth. And he succeeded. It is true Gohan could easily destroy him. But that wouldn't really matter if Boo manages to destroy the Earth before Gohan got a chance to destroy him. Right? Because Gohan would die in the vacuum of space and Boo would just regenerate an fly through space blowing up other worlds. I mean if you look at SSJ Goku vs Freeza, Goku was obviously more powerful than Freeza. But none of that would have mattered if Freeza actually managed to blow up Namek.

the only rational reason goku didn't want gohan there i could think is: absorption.

That is a possibility. But given Pure Boo's intellect level I doubt he could formulate that sort of plan. He seems more like an animal living on pure instinct than any other Boo.

if buu absorbs gohan or gotenks,it is the end. but it couldn't happen if they can blow buu up with a yell.also,vegeta still thinks a kid buu borned from mr.buu can still destroy the world,even he will be a lot weaker. why? if the weaker kid buu still has that healing factor,he will still be able to absorb stronger enemies.

Actually, Vegeta doesn't specify which Boo he is on about when he says Mr. Boo can still bring about a destructive Boo. If you check the Strength Checker on these forums Herms adds that little side note. The Boo that Mr. Boo unleashed was Pure Evil(Gray) Boo which could just absorb Mr. Boo again and become Evil(Super) Boo again. Even failing that, if Mr. Boo unleashed Pure(Kid) Boo, what's to stop him from blowing up Earth again? Goku and the gang maybe on the other side of the world when it happens. They certainly aren't going to reach Pure Boo before he launches a blast to destroy Earth.

my theory can fix all the incoherence mentioned above.but a theory is just a theory ,we can still choose that old explaination that can answer all the in-universe questions: "because the plot said" .

I don't think your theory fixes the incoherence in these chapters to be honest. Because say we take your theory to heart. It still doesn't make sense why Vegeta didn't bring Gohan or Gotenks to hold off Boo while Goku was gathering the Genki Dama. I mean at least with the "Gohan/Gotenks would slaughter Pure Boo" it makes sense why they didn't bring them in a scenario where Akira Toriyama wanted Goku to finish Pure Boo off and use the Earthlings to save the day for once.

I still think it is sloppily written, but that is the way the manga goes. There is really no reason why they shouldn't bring two of the strongest characters to defend Goku while he prepares the Genki Dama.

BOG confirm Goku (Supa Saiya-jin 3) as the Strongest unfused character.

Where in BoG does it confirm this? In the info leading up to the movie it still says Gohan has power surpassing the Pure Saiyan's. Even if he is the strongest unfused character. Goku had been training for 4-5 years. So it is possible for him to go from being the 3rd strongest to 1st in 4-5 years.

Seems like some people take the Goku's words about Majin Buu (Super Buu) as a sign of weakness.

There is no reason for him to lie at this point though.

We know later that Goku is Just a fucking liar when he says Majin Buu (Fat Buu) is not a problem. The same Majin Buu who seems too strong for him (chapter 476). He lies to Piccolo, that's it.

To be fair, Goku said he wasn't sure if he could win. He doesn't out-right state he would lose.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

He is very unsure during his dialogue. Saying things like "I don't know", "I think", "probably". Even Piccolo calls him out saying "...Probably?"

So he lies to Bejita.

There is no reason for Goku to lie though in this situation. In the previous example Goku lied because he wanted the boys to take over saving the Earth. Because he won't be around any more. Goku benefits nothing from lying in this scenario. I mean if we really want to believe that Goku can take Evil(Super) Boo. Then we have to de-power Gotenks or empower Goku. Because Piccolo was fine with SSJ Gotenks power to fight Fat Boo. So SSJ Gotenks has to be at least above SSJ2 Majin Vegeta for Piccolo to feel this way. If we take the guides on the SSJ multipliers that would place SSJ3 Gotenks at over 2x SSJ3 Goku. And considering Evil Boo is relatively the same level as SSJ3 Gotenks then Evil Boo is also 2x SSJ3 Goku.

In the original manga, Super Buu have a better body for fighting and a different Aura but nothing is said about a power up. Contrary to Kid Buu.

It's true that a power up is never directly stated. But Piccolo clearly says that the boys would now need to train if they want to beat Evil Boo. Evil Boo had increased to a point where SSJ Gotenks is pretty useless. I hardly think that him having a better body for fighting would have made such a large difference. Goku also notes that he can sense Evil Boo's Ki from the Kaioshin realm. The only battle power to be noticed there originally was SSJ3 Goku's. So Evil Boo's Ki had to have increased to either match SSJ3 Goku's Ki or ended up bigger.

[CortoMaltese]

@Hitiro
Yes it's a general Fact that Gohan possesses a better potential compared to a Pure Saiya-jin as stated by Bejita to Nappa. But it's not a direct comparaison with Goku and/or Bejita. In BOG when Bejita hit Beerus, Kame Sennin implies he became even stronger than Goku. Nothing is said about Gohan and Bejita is the first character to kick his ass. So it's clearly a statement for Goku as the First among the Z Warriors.

Yes Goku can sense Super Buu but even Kid Buu can sense Bejita and Goku (Supa Saiya-jin) on the same distance, so it's not really extraordinary.
And you can't deny the talent of Kid Buu when he copy Kibito KAIOSHIN (Shunkan Idou) in one instant.
Especially when Fat Buu and Buu Gohan are totally unable to copy Goku (Shunkan Idou).

But it's Dragon Ball so it's debatable.
But i appreciate the fact that you are reasonable about the power levels with Gotenks only 2 times stronger than Goku. Especially when i read something like Gohan 100 times stronger than Goku it's a complete bullshit.

[Hitiro]

Yes it's a general Fact that Gohan possesses a better potential compared to a Pure Saiya-jin as stated by Bejita to Nappa. But it's not a direct comparaison with Goku and/or Bejita. In BOG when Bejita hit Beerus, Kame Sennin implies he became even stronger than Goku. Nothing is said about Gohan and Bejita is the first character to kick his ass. So it's clearly a statement for Goku as the First among the Z Warriors.

It has been Vegeta's life-long goal to surpass Goku. So obviously Kame-sennin is going to say that Vegeta finally surpassed Goku. Vegeta only kicked Beerus ass because Beerus was surprised by how much power he gained from what he was originally at. It is the same with Freeza 2nd form with Gohan. Gohan's power did increase a fair bit. But do you honestly think Gohan's power increased from the 10 thousands up to 1 million? I certainly don't think so.

Yes Goku can sense Super Buu but even Kid Buu can sense Bejita and Goku (Supa Saiya-jin) on the same distance, so it's not really extraordinary.

Pure Boo can sense Vegeta and Goku while actively searching for their powers. It's a little different. Goku sensed Evil Boo without searching for his battle power. The same way the Kaioshin also sensed SSJ3 Goku without actively searching for his battle power.

And you can't deny the talent of Kid Buu when he copy Kibito KAIOSHIN (Shunkan Idou) in one instant.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything really. I don't disagree he is talented at copying Ki techniques. But then so is any other Boo.

Especially when Fat Buu and Buu Gohan are totally unable to copy Goku (Shunkan Idou).

Fat Boo couldn't sense Ki so I don't think that is fair on his part seeing as the Goku's technique requires Ki sensing. Perhaps the technique is more difficult to learn then the Kibito's Kai Kai. We don't know.

But it's Dragon Ball so it's debatable.
But i appreciate the fact that you are reasonable about the power levels with Gotenks only 2 times stronger than Goku. Especially when i read something like Gohan 100 times stronger than Goku it's a complete bullshit.

Well, 2x is a conservative estimate if we only put SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT) at SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's level. If SSJ Gotenks was SSJ3 Goku's level in power then SSJ3 Gotenks should only be 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. And the most I'd put Gohan at is 16x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. I don't see why anybody would put Gohan at 100x stronger than Goku.

[Confidence Matters]

Then states later that he had been considering doing just that, but hadn't had a chance to yet.

What better chance did he have at it if not from the very beginning where he was at 100%!? Cmon son. When Goku said he just needs a minute to charge his ki to come up with enough ki to kill Boo, he overestimated himself, doesn't matter the reason why. HE SAID HE NEEDED ONLY 1 MINUTE, AND HAD WAY MORE THAN 1 MINUTE, AND STILL didn't have enough ki charged to kill Boo. This means Goku overestimated his max strength. Proof is right there.

Goku charged for more than a minute and he still didn't have the ki to kill Boo, because Kid Boo's ki was far beyond Goku's. Period.

None of you will rationalize this away. Kid Boo tanked Goku's strongest attack and was in perfect condition right after.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

Funny how in the OFFICIAL release of the english manga, Goku actually says "I'VE BEEN TRYIN' TO, BUT..."

You're citing a fan-translated line.

Which means even though he was himself at full power from the start, he didn't put all his power into the Kamehameha. Given that he didn't seem remotely fatigured or strained after firing it, this seems all the more likely to be the case.

Goku states he was going to go all out. He reinforces this by attacking RIGHT OFF THE BAT with his most powerful attack, the kamehameha. Why the hell would he do that if he wasn't going 100% lol? And the fact that Gou says he has been TRYING to the whole time.

Even if that was evidence suggesting anything, all it means is that Gotenks was stronger than what Buu was exhibiting at the time. However, given that his statement later indicates that he planned to keep Gotenks around as absorption fodder, supports that he didn't go all out against Gotenks so that he could absorb him if necessary.

Super Boo was pissed-looking with all sorts of veins and strained expression after he got hit with that Volleyball technique, which indicates that he was indeed super serious against SSJ3 Gotenks, and since Piccolo insinuates they at least are equal, and given the fact that SSJ3 Gotenks was even in a position where Super Boo was at his mercy before he unfused, means Gotenks SSJ3 was clearly superior.

Super Boo's plan was to use his endurance to outlast the superior fusion, til the threat that was more powerful than him and than Gotenks SSJ3 showed up so he can absorb the fresh fusion and be the strongest. Nothing suggests Super Boo is superior than Gotenks SSJ3, in fact he was getting battered pretty badly by Gotenks SSJ3, and only survived because of his endurance.

No, because that generally only happened when Buu was enraged, and even then, it wasn't a guaranteed situation.

Enraged, serious, same thing in Dragon Ball.

He clearly wasn't venting any steam when he was struggling against the Genki Dama, before or after Goku's strength was restored to him, a situation where he clearly should have been serious.

True, but like Super Boo who was serious against Gotenks SSJ3, Kid Boo was serious given that his body was filled with veins and a strained expression. He had to be, do we agree? So there are 2 tells that Boo is pissed/serious - steam and/or veins and strained expression. So if Kid Boo was serious against the Spirit Bomb (obviously) which is indicated by veins & strained expression, then so is Super Boo vs Gotenks SSJ3.

Again, Goku states later that he never had the chance yet to try and wipe him out with a full power blast, and given that he showed no sign of fatigue after firing the Kamehameha supports that it wasn't at full strength.

Dude, he would have not opened up with a freakin kamehameha RIGHT after he says he was going to go all out against Kid Boo for the sake of the universe. Goku was obviously going 100% the entire time.

Goku was only a Super Saiya-jin when Buu fell asleep in front of him, and conveniently only started dancing around and not regenerating immediately once it was readily established that Goku had lost a great deal of ki due to the strain of Ssj3 (given that this was right as Goku was saying he needed a minute to gather ki). If he had been dancing around or showing any sign of playing around with Goku during the course of the fight, it'd be one thing, but given that the only time he was shown playing around (when it came to fighting Ssj3 Goku) was when Goku was needing time to recover ki, it supports that Buu found Goku a legitimate threat up to that point.

Most of Kid Boo's expressions during the battle with Goku SSJ3 suggest he was having fun with Goku and not taking the fight serious. He was smiling and laughing, and we already know Boo's expression when he's seriously fighting - veins, strained face, some instances steam, etc.

It still just comes down to it looking far more like the threat of the opponent playing a large part in how quickly Buu will regenerate following an attack. This isn't another "Which Buu is stronger" debate, so we should just leave a lot of that argument out of this, otherwise this topic will get locked most likely.

[/quote]

It is very, very telling though. If Goku was allegedly "stronger or at least equal" to Kid Boo (clearly he wasn't, as I proved), then that means Kid Boo has the ability to regenerate faster (against an opponent who is "equal to or stronger than him") than Super Boo who takes ages to regenerate against an opponent who is equal to or greater than himself - Hell, Super Boo took ages to regenerate from a (serious) SSJ1 Ghost attack, which was clearly way, way beneath him.

This would mean Kid Boo's abilities are greater than Super Boo's.

[Confidence Matters]

It was an uncharged Kamehameha. He never powered-up the attack at all.

Goku says he is going to go all-out for the universe. Opens up with a kamehameha, his strongest move.

Thenw hen he said he has been trying to but hasn't gotten the chance, that's because he was thinking of charging his ki beyond his limits and firing an attack with all that ki. (Notice Goku doesn't say "I just need to get back to full power, which will take me 1 minute..." - he says he needs to charge his ki for 1 minute into an attack, much like a special beam cannon-like attack that is stronger than the user themselves.)

He charge up for more than 1 minute and still didn't get enough ki to make him stronger than Kid Boo.

All proof Goku wasn't strong enough to even damage Boo on his own, let alone kill him, and that he overestimated himself greatly to look cool to Vegeta (WHICH IS STATED!)