Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
NavonWise wrote:Gohan won't sit there and watch innocent people get hurt either, if there's something he can do, he will do it.
There is something he can do, but he refuses to do it. Instead the inner 4 year old returns as the character's basis so that the most he can do is delay the inevitable. Gohan. Loves to pick on the little itty bitty humans who can't fight him, but scared of the mere thought of stopping a real threat.
NavonWise wrote:Because he felt had to do it; the Earth is in danger so might as well try to get stronger. But it's not like he enjoyed it; when there's peace, he doesn't train because it's not his hobby to do so, when there is danger before hand, he will train to do what he can and help.
Earth is still in danger, but now daddy is gonna handle it for him. No one is saying he enjoys to train like Goku and Vegeta, he does not. However what is interesting is someone who would train not because it's fun or because they like to fight, but because they care about protecting the people. That is what I'd like to see. A responsible adult manning up to protect those he cares for.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:Which is why he later told Goku and Vegeta to fight Dabura for him instead of him taking a turn, and went into early retirement as a Super Hero....oh wait...
What exactly are you implying here? I don't think that fighting Dabura or playing superhero is at all inconsistent with his dislike of fighting (which he's made perfectly clear on numerous occasions), nor is it inconsistent with RoF's portrayal of his personality. He obviously doesn't want the world to be in danger, and he's willing to fight opponents more powerful than the average human criminal if the situation calls for it, but he doesn't actively train or seek out strong opponents during times of peace. That's not what he's into, and it never has been. He prefers - and constantly participates in - other hobbies instead.
RoF didn't degrade his character, it accentuated it.
SansrivaaL wrote:Btw I think Freeza trained for 5months or so since Piccolo mentioned Shenron's appearance as ''Hantoshi'' = ''half a year'' unless it took Freeza's spaceship 2mos to go to some weird planet to train in.
Point is, 4 months for Freeza is not a stretch. We have evidence of people with a higher potential than others surpassing those with a lower hidden potential so this timeframe is not an issue.
Birusu16 wrote:
Goku had a long way to go just to measure up and surpass Beerus and Whis as of BoGs. Both of those characters were already an example of the "There's always someone out there stronger than you" trope.
The multiverse concept is a huge element in any verse, so to bring it up and just completely ignore it in the following film is quite a disappointment. If others don't agree then fine, but that's just my view on the matter.
If we stop at Beerus and Whis, there's no one left for Goku to surpass and that's a problem. If Beerus and Whis isn't the strongest people in the Universe, the line that says multiverse would surely only say universe. Saying multiverse is just a way to one up universe because there isn't a whole lot more you can do when you're already the strongest in the universe.
Eventhough I say this, multiverse is still a way to expand the Dragon Ball series even more and I can understand why people are disappointed when it isn't in this movie but it still doesn't justify being angry at Toriyama because he never promised anything or even hint that the next movie will have that specific thing.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
SansrivaaL wrote:Btw I think Freeza trained for 5months or so since Piccolo mentioned Shenron's appearance as ''Hantoshi'' = ''half a year'' unless it took Freeza's spaceship 2mos to go to some weird planet to train in.
Point is, 4 months for Freeza is not a stretch. We have evidence of people with a higher potential than others surpassing those with a lower hidden potential so this timeframe is not an issue.
But in fanfiction. People always complain that B.S power ups are what makes it bad. Or wishing back old bad guys! Or removing characters!
Last edited by TheGmGoken on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NavonWise wrote:Gohan won't sit there and watch innocent people get hurt either, if there's something he can do, he will do it.
There is something he can do, but he refuses to do it. Instead the inner 4 year old returns as the character's basis so that the most he can do is delay the inevitable. Gohan. Loves to pick on the little itty bitty humans who can't fight him, but scared of the mere thought of stopping a real threat.
I wouldn't put it that harshly. To me, it just seems like Gohan is the most level-headed of them all. If he knows he's weak enough to fight someone, then he won't, if he know he's stronger, then he will. You're putting it as if he's some kind of psycho.
NavonWise wrote:Gohan won't sit there and watch innocent people get hurt either, if there's something he can do, he will do it.
There is something he can do, but he refuses to do it. Instead the inner 4 year old returns as the character's basis so that the most he can do is delay the inevitable. Gohan. Loves to pick on the little itty bitty humans who can't fight him, but scared of the mere thought of stopping a real threat.
Yeah, he refuses to train in times of peace because that's not his focus...we know this so what exactly is your point?
Birusu16 wrote:
Goku had a long way to go just to measure up and surpass Beerus and Whis as of BoGs. Both of those characters were already an example of the "There's always someone out there stronger than you" trope.
The multiverse concept is a huge element in any verse, so to bring it up and just completely ignore it in the following film is quite a disappointment. If others don't agree then fine, but that's just my view on the matter.
If we stop at Beerus and Whis, there's no one left for Goku to surpass and that's a problem. If Beerus and Whis isn't the strongest people in the Universe, the line that says multiverse would surely only say universe. Saying multiverse is just a way to one up universe because there isn't a whole lot more you can do when you're already the strongest in the universe.
Eventhough I say this, multiverse is still a way to expand the Dragon Ball series even more and I can understand why people are disappointed when it isn't in this movie but it still doesn't justify being angry at Toriyama because he never promised anything or even hint that the next movie will have that specific thing.
I'm not angry at Toriyama. I'm saying that I can see why others are disappointed with this film as I've got my gripes about it as well.
It's just constructive criticism. I certainly don't condone those who just bash the man as there's no reason for that.
Life isn't all about fighting, but Dragonball is. If Gohan is retired, then let him retire. Don't keep dragging him back in just to kick him in the balls over and over because HA HA YOU NOT TRAIN.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Earth is still in danger, but now daddy is gonna handle it for him. No one is saying he enjoys to train like Goku and Vegeta, he does not. However what is interesting is someone who would train not because it's fun or because they like to fight, but because they care about protecting the people. That is what I'd like to see. A responsible adult manning up to protect those he cares for.
But the only people that beat him before this is Beerus. That's it. Buu also one of the strongest being in the universe is already his friend and he can still measure up to Buu. How would he know that a villain from the past is going to get a power up that's going to even surpass him. When you're already one of the strongest being in the Universe, not many people can harm and want to harm you.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
dbzfan7 wrote:Which is why he later told Goku and Vegeta to fight Dabura for him instead of him taking a turn, and went into early retirement as a Super Hero....oh wait...
What exactly are you implying here? I don't think that fighting Dabura or playing superhero is at all inconsistent with his dislike of fighting (which he's made perfectly clear on numerous occasions), nor is it inconsistent with RoF's portrayal of his personality. He obviously doesn't want the world to be in danger, and he's willing to fight opponents more powerful than the average human criminal if the situation calls for it, but he doesn't actively train or seek out strong opponents during times of peace. That's not what he's into, and it never has been. He prefers - and constantly participates in - other hobbies instead.
RoF didn't degrade his character, it accentuated it.
The point I'm making is that he's not completely against fighting or hates it as much as people say. He doesn't like training like Goku or Vegeta, but he doesn't hate it either. He just likes other things more. He didn't have to fight Dabura at all. He could have let any other person fight for him. Instead he really wanted to fight Dabura and alone. Who hates fighting so much, but wants to fight the strongest guy alone?
He doesn't have to be of fighting mindset to become a protector. He could because once Goku wasn't around to save the day, he nearly died. Instead of learning from that he'll suck on his daddies tit some more so he'll safe guard Pan and Videl for him. A fighter who doesn't fight because it's fun, but because he cares about people brings in a dynamic. Why does every fighter have to be a warrior junkie?
But the only people that beat him before this is Beerus. That's it. Buu also one of the strongest being in the universe is already his friend and he can still measure up to Buu. How would he know that a villain from the past is going to get a power up that's going to even surpass him. When you're already one of the strongest being in the Universe, not many people can harm and want to harm you.
His whole life stronger threats have been coming out of nowhere. His whole life has he had to find out there's always a danger. Instead of caring he goes, fuck it let my daddy do it for me because I'm a child inside again.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Rocketman wrote:Life isn't all about fighting, but Dragonball is. If Gohan is retired, then let him retire. Don't keep dragging him back in just to kick him in the balls over and over because HA HA YOU NOT TRAIN.
Probably my biggest problem. If he's retired, let him fucking retire. But no they just keep on doing the same shit every time and then mocking the fact he doesn't train. Also that goes right into my signature.
NavonWise wrote:Yeah, he refuses to train in times of peace because that's not his focus...we know this so what exactly is your point?
If he's retired. Let him fucking retire. If he's gonna fight, let him learn his fucking lesson already. But nope the only answer is kick him in the balls and job each and every time. That's my problem. They won't let him retire, and they won't let him get better. He's there to get his ass kicked to make the threat look bigger.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Marlowe89 wrote:
RoF didn't degrade his character, it accentuated it.
It accentuated the bad part of his character. Fans just want character progression. When he was a small child, he was terrified to fight. By the namek arc, he's able to raise his fist whenever he needs to. That's progression. Imagine if he stayed the same as he was in the saiyan saga for the rest of the series, and was comedy relief as a result. People would excuse it because he's "in-character."
I'm completely against the notion of him not training for 7 years due to peace or because he doesn't like to. Simply put, they could have gone a different direction. How awesome would it have been if he did train for those 7 years. Even though I prefer Kid Gohan's personality over his teen version, I'd still love the character if he went from his quirky self to something akin to Future Trunks against Frieza when he entered the battlefield. That was almost the case, but it no longer is. He's regressed... again.
Rocketman wrote:Life isn't all about fighting, but Dragonball is. If Gohan is retired, then let him retire. Don't keep dragging him back in just to kick him in the balls over and over because HA HA YOU NOT TRAIN.
This a million times.
He was a good coach in the 2008 special. At least make him that if he's going to continue to be fodder...
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
dbzfan7 wrote:Earth is still in danger, but now daddy is gonna handle it for him. No one is saying he enjoys to train like Goku and Vegeta, he does not. However what is interesting is someone who would train not because it's fun or because they like to fight, but because they care about protecting the people. That is what I'd like to see. A responsible adult manning up to protect those he cares for.
Daddy is handling it because he's the only one suited for the job. You seem to forget that little Gohan here was a scared little boy when he finished off Cell and do you know who he needed for guidance? Yup, daddy; see, it was daddy who was talking to little Gohan and encouraging him even in death. Had it not been for daddy, Cell would have won because you have a scared little boy afraid to unleash all his powers to stop Cell. Fast forward 7 years, we have Gohan who could have easily destroyed Buu but what happens? He lets Buu become more powerful and ruins his chance to defeat him and saving the planet. Gohan had his chances and blew it and when he actually stopped a major threat he needed guidance. I love Gohan, one of my favorite characters but unfortunately he is not suited for the job.
dbzfan7 wrote:
His whole life stronger threats have been coming out of nowhere. His whole life has he had to find out there's always a danger. Instead of caring he goes, fuck it let my daddy do it for me because I'm a child inside again.
That isn't the problem. He is already one of the strongest people in the universe. UNIVERSE. As we know, Gohan is a smart kid. He knows what a universe is. So, it actually is possible that there will be no more threats that's going to harm him again and even if there is, the threats couldn't exactly be stronger than him. Beerus is already an ally, Goku got the god power, Vegeta does too. Buu is already an ally. With this, Gohan could already conclude that there will be no threat that can harm him.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
In Fukkatsu no F Son Gohan is the most flawless fighter before Son Gokuu and Vegeta return. There's a joke about his skills, but that's it. Remember, he defeats Shisami in one blow, something Piccolo had trouble with.
Last edited by JulieYBM on Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
It accentuated the bad part of his character. Fans just want character progression. When he was a small child, he was terrified to fight. By the namek arc, he's able to raise his fist whenever he needs to. That's progression. Imagine if he stayed the same as he was in the saiyan saga for the rest of the series, and was comedy relief as a result. People would excuse it because he's "in-character."
I'm completely against the notion of him not training for 7 years due to peace or because he doesn't like to. Simply put, they could have gone a different direction. How awesome would it have been if he did train for those 7 years. Even though I prefer Kid Gohan's personality over his teen version, I'd still love the character if he went from his quirky self to something akin to Future Trunks against Freeza when he entered the battlefield. That was almost the case, but it no longer is. He's regressed... again.
Fans and to be more specific Gohan's fans want badass Gohan. They don't want fodder Gohan. They don't want that other lame part of him. They only love Gohan for that specific badass part. Would this happen if Krillin or the other humans get fodderize? Would it?
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
TheGmGoken wrote:Didn't an early book said Gohan stopped being stupid after Beerus?
He did. Now he majors in 10 more unknown subjects.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
