kid buu: the theories part 3

[Hitiro]

Then states later that he had been considering doing just that, but hadn't had a chance to yet.

What better chance did he have at it if not from the very beginning where he was at 100%!? Cmon son. When Goku said he just needs a minute to charge his ki to come up with enough ki to kill Boo, he overestimated himself, doesn't matter the reason why. HE SAID HE NEEDED ONLY 1 MINUTE, AND HAD WAY MORE THAN 1 MINUTE, AND STILL didn't have enough ki charged to kill Boo. This means Goku overestimated his max strength. Proof is right there.

Goku charged for more than a minute and he still didn't have the ki to kill Boo, because Kid Boo's ki was far beyond Goku's. Period.

The only reason Goku he needed more than one minute is because he wasn't charging correctly. He himself didn't understand why he couldn't gather the power necessary.

Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P1.6
Context: Vegeta asks Goku if he’s gathered enough ki to defeat Boo yet
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”

Goku:"I don't get it...!! It shouldn't be like this!! I'm... I'm actually... ...losing energy..."

He follows up with saying:

Goku: "Darn it... It worked while I was dead... I guess it takes up too much Ki to be Super Saiyan 3 while you're alive..."

Therefore Goku could have beaten Pure Boo without the negative effects of SSJ3. So that changes nothing really. 100% SSJ3 Goku should have still theoretically beaten Pure Boo. He didn't overestimate his max strength. He underestimated the SSJ3 form's effects on a living body. I honestly don't see why you can't see that.

[dragonballer]

Well, there is no need to provide scanlations then. You could have just quoted your official Portuguese manga and be backed up. But your OP uses the lines from the scanlation as evidence/information for your theories. There are rules on the site that discourage the use of scanlations. Mods are frequently removing these sorts of scans.

then ok ,i am not used to use quotes,but i will start to use.

His reason for choosing option 2 though is what Vegeta said "The Earthlings should save themselves for once." It doesn't really have any bearing on which was the best option. They are both valid options.

then let's not talk about goku's decision. kaioh, old kai and kami are all wise universal guardians,they would choose the better option because it is not only the earth business,it is about the how universe.old kai,at least,wouldn't care about what vegeta said and send kibitoshin to bring gohan.

Well, I didn't say anything about "free pizza" just another pizza place. Of course if you are going to have free pizza then that is obviously the best option for it. Or possibly some other fast food place. It still doesn't detract from me having a good idea. As far as Gohan and Gotenks are concerned I wouldn't consider them "free pizza" level. They are just another option you can take rather than ordering from Pizza Hut. Or I assume that's how they saw it at the time. Goku, Vegeta and the rest of the people didn't think it would be so difficult for Goku to make the Genki Dama at the time. Until they actually tried it.

but gohan =12xgoku at least. it is like a free pizza.ok,the idea above is acceptable ,goku thought "i will just make the genki-dama and throw it" but i wasn't that easy as he thought.

It's not really drama. If you recall the first thing Boo tried to do when he came into existence is destroy Earth. And he succeeded. It is true Gohan could easily destroy him. But that wouldn't really matter if Boo manages to destroy the Earth before Gohan got a chance to destroy him. Right? Because Gohan would die in the vacuum of space and Boo would just regenerate an fly through space blowing up other worlds. I mean if you look at SSJ Goku vs Freeza, Goku was obviously more powerful than Freeza. But none of that would have mattered if Freeza actually managed to blow up Namek.

i very sure they would bring gohan and gotenks to fight buu if the genki-dama failed. that ridiculous history would be like this: buu was flying at the space destroying planets after he blow up kaiohshinkai.buu sensed a powerful ki and looked back,but before he could even look his enemy he was already destroyed."good bye,universe destroyer" said gohan in a space suit with kibitoshin.

That is a possibility. But given Pure Boo's intellect level I doubt he could formulate that sort of plan. He seems more like an animal living on pure instinct than any other Boo.

his instinct will tell him to absorb his enemy when buu faces a 12 times stronger opponent. maybe goku overstimated buu's intelligence.

Actually, Vegeta doesn't specify which Boo he is on about when he says Mr. Boo can still bring about a destructive Boo. If you check the Strength Checker on these forums Herms adds that little side note. The Boo that Mr. Boo unleashed was Pure Evil(Gray) Boo which could just absorb Mr. Boo again and become Evil(Super) Boo again. Even failing that, if Mr. Boo unleashed Pure(Kid) Boo, what's to stop him from blowing up Earth again? Goku and the gang maybe on the other side of the world when it happens. They certainly aren't going to reach Pure Boo before he launches a blast to destroy Earth.

except that goku said it will be alright because he will train and win the fight if the evil/pure buu appears again.that means they would have a chance to fight, if gohan can blow the old and new buu in 1 second,i don't think even buu could destroy earth.in fact, kid buu managed to explode the planet in dragon ball xenoverse,kid buu only succeded because that buu strangely was able to put up a good fight with gohan and not destroyed with one punch.

I don't think your theory fixes the incoherence in these chapters to be honest. Because say we take your theory to heart. It still doesn't make sense why Vegeta didn't bring Gohan or Gotenks to hold off Boo while Goku was gathering the Genki Dama. I mean at least with the "Gohan/Gotenks would slaughter Pure Boo" it makes sense why they didn't bring them in a scenario where Akira Toriyama wanted Goku to finish Pure Boo off and use the Earthlings to save the day for once.
I still think it is sloppily written, but that is the way the manga goes. There is really no reason why they shouldn't bring two of the strongest characters to defend Goku while he prepares the Genki Dama.

i have already explained it:absortion. z-fighters can't sense buu's pieces' ki,buu could caught gohan offguard if buu could survive from gohan's attacks.if kid absorb gohan or gotenks,maybe the genki-dama would not be enough to kill buu.well,that is my explaintion .

[Confidence Matters]

The only reason Goku he needed more than one minute is because he wasn't charging correctly.

There IS no other way to charge your ki in SSJ3, it isn't stated anywhere, Goku being a master of his body and of Martial Arts knows exactly how to charge his ki. The reason why SSj3 drained his ki was because that's just how SSJ3 is. So please tell me how in the hell was Goku ever going to kill Kid Boo on his own? He started at 100% full power and did NOTHING to Kid Boo, then he gathered energy that put him almost at full power and he STILL wasn't powerful enough to do anything to Kid Boo.

So please PLEASE explain to me how Goku was ever going to even damage Kid Boo?

No one can say Goku never attacked Kid Boo with his full power. And Dead Goku's full power is the same as Live Goku's full power.

He himself didn't understand why he couldn't gather the power necessary.

Regardless, Goku was 100% at the beginning of the fight and attacked with his strongest attack.

100% SSJ3 Goku should have still theoretically beaten Pure Boo.

False. Goku was 100% when he first transformed and attacked Kid Boo. He stated so, and he even opened up with the Kamehameha, which BASED SOLELY ON GOKU"S STATEMENT ABOUT GOING ALL OUT (100%) FOR THE SAKE OF THE UNIVERSE, was at full power. These 2 concrete facts simply outweigh Goku's ONE statement. Hell, on the VizBig edition of the manga, he said he had been tryin' to finish Kid Boo.

There is too much evidence against Goku holding back vs. Kid Boo.

He didn't overestimate his max strength. He underestimated the SSJ3 form's effects on a living body. I honestly don't see why you can't see that.

He overestimated himself because he himself said he thought he could do better, and because he said himself he needed a whole minute to generate enough ki to finish off Boo. Notice Goku doesn't say "I need a minute to get to full power" - he said "I need a minute to gather enough ki to wipe him off"

That is a clear indication that he was going to gather energy like a special beam cannon-like attack, which would have been beyond his power level like Piccolo did in the Saiyan Saga.

[Darkprince410]

There IS no other way to charge your ki in SSJ3, it isn't stated anywhere, Goku being a master of his body and of Martial Arts knows exactly how to charge his ki.

What he meant by "not charging correctly" is that he wasn't recovering ki faster than it was being drained. That's why it confused him as he was losing strength, as it didn't make sense for his ki to be dwindling faster than it was being recovered, since he didn't realize it'd burn through ki so bad.

No one can say Goku never attacked Kid Boo with his full power. And Dead Goku's full power is the same as Live Goku's full power.

Goku himself said that he didn't attack Buu with a full-power blast, as he outright said that he hadn't had a chance to yet.

Regardless, Goku was 100% at the beginning of the fight and attacked with his strongest attack.

Again, he still stated that he hadn't had a chance to use a full power attack against Buu, so what he fired at Buu at the start of their fight wasn't a full-power Kamehameha. It doesn't matter what Viz said in the matter, because the more accurate translation is saying that he hadn't had a chance to yet.

[Confidence Matters]

What he meant by "not charging correctly" is that he wasn't recovering ki faster than it was being drained. That's why it confused him as he was losing strength, as it didn't make sense for his ki to be dwindling faster than it was being recovered, since he didn't realize it'd burn through ki so bad.

More proof Goku SSJ3 was NEVER going to kill Kid Boo on his own.

Goku himself said that he didn't attack Buu with a full-power blast, as he outright said that he hadn't had a chance to yet.

Yet he outright says he was going to go all out, and he outright chose to attack with a kamehameha right of the bat. So I ask, how didn't Goku have the opportunity to wipe Boo off, if when he powered into SSJ3, Kid Boo was aslpee and then woke up and started pounding on his chest. That was more than a perfect opportunity.

And Goku fired a kamehameha.

Again, he still stated that he hadn't had a chance to use a full power attack against Buu, so what he fired at Buu at the start of their fight wasn't a full-power Kamehameha. It doesn't matter what Viz said in the matter, because the more accurate translation is saying that he hadn't had a chance to yet.

Here's the thing - you have no idea which translation is the most accurate. You don't know japanese, much less read the entire manga in japanese, nor have you double-checked anything. You're going off of what people on this forum say.

It comes down to Official vs. fan translation anyhow. VizBig editions = official, herms lines = unofficial fan work (no matter how "accurate"). VizBig says Goku has been trying to kill Boo the entire time, it has him saying he is going to go all out for the sake of the universe. The heads of the series revised these lines about a million times now it seems, and these are the lines they chose to send out.

[Kaboom]

Confidence Matters, these "fan translations" you keep dissing are from a guy who's all but fluent in the language and, with the cooperation of others in this community, actually went through the entire manga and and built a comprehensive archive of specific lines, translated almost entirely for the purpose of having direct and accurate information for strength discussions. The lines were intentionally translated for grammatical accuracy rather than "readability" for that reason. It was a massive and admirable effort that has become a resource and benefit for countless discussions since its creation.

Not that anyone owes you proof of anything, but people here DO know Japanese well enough to translate power-related lines from a children's comic. One of the webmasters (Julian/Saiyajedi) freakin' lives in Japan and works as a teacher. Jake/Herms has lived in Japan and spent years studying the language too. These guys have a demonstrated grasp on the language. We have no good reason not to trust either one of them when it comes to translations.

Essentially every in-universe fan on Kanzenshuu, and elsewhere, realizes that Viz took some liberties with their DB/Z translations for the sake of an easier read, and that more literal translations from a reliable source are better for strength-related discussions. This has nothing to do with "sides" of any given debate, and everything to do with common sense and standards of discussion. How can worthwhile conversation or debate be had with inaccurate information? It can't.

I honestly don't give a crap which form of Boo anyone thinks is stronger. I've been a witness to or participant in that particular debate so many times that the my give-a-damn machine's "ON" button is worn out. But what DOES irk me is to see someone who's so obstinate and narrow-minded about this or any topic that they attempt to discredit or belittle the difficult and tedious translation work that some people have put themselves through, for THEIR benefit, just because they don't want to allow ANYTHING that could potentially weaken the "facts" they've arranged in their minds.

If you want to plug up your ears and tell yourself that Viz's dialogue is more trustworthy than Herms' translations just because it's "official," even when there's blatant discrepancies like name changes, Vegeta killing Goku's grandpa, and the like... go ahead. But don't expect anyone else to join you or take you seriously.

[Confidence Matters]

Confidence Matters, these "fan translations" you keep dissing are from a guy who's all but fluent in the language and, with the cooperation of others in this community, actually went through the entire manga and and built a comprehensive archive of specific lines, translated almost entirely for the purpose of having direct and accurate information for strength discussions. The lines were intentionally translated for grammatical accuracy rather than "readability" for that reason. It was a massive and admirable effort that has become a resource and benefit for countless discussions since its creation.

Not that anyone owes you proof of anything, but people here DO know Japanese well enough to translate power-related lines from a children's comic. One of the webmasters (Julian/Saiyajedi) freakin' lives in Japan and works as a teacher. Jake/Herms has lived in Japan and spent years studying the language too. These guys have a demonstrated grasp on the language. We have no good reason not to trust either one of them when it comes to translations.

Essentially every in-universe fan on Kanzenshuu, and elsewhere, realizes that Viz took some liberties with their DB/Z translations for the sake of an easier read, and that more literal translations from a reliable source are better for strength-related discussions. This has nothing to do with "sides" of any given debate, and everything to do with common sense and standards of discussion. How can worthwhile conversation or debate be had with inaccurate information? It can't.

I honestly don't give a crap which form of Boo anyone thinks is stronger. I've been a witness to or participant in that particular debate so many times that the my give-a-damn machine's "ON" button is worn out. But what DOES irk me is to see someone who's so obstinate and narrow-minded about this or any topic that they attempt to discredit or belittle the difficult and tedious translation work that some people have put themselves through, for THEIR benefit, just because they don't want to allow ANYTHING that could potentially weaken the "facts" they've arranged in their minds.

If you want to plug up your ears and tell yourself that Viz's dialogue is more trustworthy than Herms' translations just because it's "official," even when there's blatant discrepancies like name changes, Vegeta killing Goku's grandpa, and the like... go ahead. But don't expect anyone else to join you or take you seriously.

Trust, but verify.

I never said Herms' lines to be inaccurate or wrong. So please spare me the whole "disrespect" that I'm clearly not doing.

It literally doesn't hurt to solidify the translations as accurate as possible by having more legitimate fluent & competent jap-to-english translators verify all of Herms' lines. Right now there is only like... what, 10 people (is ther even 10 proven?) only on this forum verifying Herms' lines as accurate, and everyone else just goes with it?

Plus there is a TON of ways to interpret the japanese language, as well as interpret the english language, hell any language. So the context is CRUCIAL. So ONLY including lines strictly regarding battle power has much more room for erroneous context.

Herms lines are one way to interpret the manga, the other experts read a line and just say "yah, that's what it is saying, more or less"

Like I said, there are only 2 or 3 people who know 100% fluent japanese AND 100% fluent english who are competent translators who have read the entire manga and double-checked Herms' lines to be correct. 2 different people can translate something and can come up with 2 different translations...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Even the experts can be off, though.

I enjoy the translations, but there's no way "A saiyan is most powerful in its ape form! A saiyan that still has its tail!" can be confused with “Wanna hear something good?... When Saiyans become Oozaru, their battle power becomes 10 times what it is as a human!!!!" Sure it gets the general point across, but Herms's translation is more precise. The panel in the Japanese manga even has a 10 in it.

Or "But my only chance is to increase my power" with "“Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5, it still won't have any effect on him!!!!”

Most of Herms's lines match-up with the Anime subs more than the Manga.

The official translations definitely aren't bad by any means, but they're not perfect.

[AvatarReiko]

Likewise, Buu himself at least suggests that he was buying time during his fight with Ssj3 Gotenks, as he sensed Gohan's power from Kaioushin Kai and wanted to save Gotenks specifically to absorb him if it became necessary.

Buu could have stretched the fight out without allowing himself to get repeatedly pummelled. Gotenks was all over him like white on rice. Buu could barely touch him and the only time he did was when the latter started fooling around and let his guard down. Buu was far from controlling that fight and was even shown to get increasingly frustrated.

Most of Kid Boo's expressions during the battle with Goku SSJ3 suggest he was having fun with Goku and not taking the fight serious. He was smiling and laughing, and we already know Boo's expression when he's seriously fighting - veins, strained face, some instances steam, etc.

He wasn't smiling when Goku kicked him in the back of the head when he IT'd behind him.
He wasn't smiling when Goku took a munch out of his head.
He wasn't smiling when Goku was blowing him back Kiai attacks
He wasn't smiling when attempted to one shot Goku when he hit him his candy beam

[Confidence Matters]

He wasn't smiling when Goku kicked him in the back of the head when he IT'd behind him.
He wasn't smiling when Goku took a munch out of his head.
He wasn't smiling when Goku was blowing him back Kiai attacks
He wasn't smiling when attempted to one shot Goku when he hit him his candy beam

Please show me where Kid Boo in these instances was steaming, veiny and with a very strained face?

And now in comparison, how many times is Goku smiling or non-serious? How many times is Kid Boo non-serious in that battles?

[Hitiro]

then let's not talk about goku's decision. kaioh, old kai and kami are all wise universal guardians,they would choose the better option because it is not only the earth business,it is about the how universe.old kai,at least,wouldn't care about what vegeta said and send kibitoshin to bring gohan.

You can't really say they chose the better option because Vegeta never provided them the options. Only Goku. The only character who possibly heard the other option is Kaio. Because the Rou Kaioshin and the Kibitokai were wondering why he wanted to speak to everyone so they obviously didn't hear everything they said. But Kai is probably going to prefer the Genki Dama as the finisher because it's his pride and joy of techniques. He even says to Vegeta that he loves that it's going to be the closer of the fight.

i very sure they would bring gohan and gotenks to fight buu if the genki-dama failed. that ridiculous history would be like this: buu was flying at the space destroying planets after he blow up kaiohshinkai.buu sensed a powerful ki and looked back,but before he could even look his enemy he was already destroyed."good bye,universe destroyer" said gohan in a space suit with kibitoshin.

Well, the problem is that you don't know what Pure Boo would do after the Genki Dama failed. He could leave Earth as the very last thing to be destroyed. Kibitokai wouldn't have the power to get Gohan there until a little rest. Pure Boo may just show up at Namek and blow Namek up before Kibitokai can do anything. So many things could go wrong.

except that goku said it will be alright because he will train and win the fight if the evil/pure buu appears again.that means they would have a chance to fight, if gohan can blow the old and new buu in 1 second,i don't think even buu could destroy earth.in fact, kid buu managed to explode the planet in dragon ball xenoverse,kid buu only succeded because that buu strangely was able to put up a good fight with gohan and not destroyed with one punch.

Goku did say that. But Goku has the Shunkan Idou. So it would be all right if he is strong enough to take on Boo. For Gohan and Gotenks they would still have to fly around the world and by that time it may be too late. It's even worse for Gotenks because two characters have to meet up and do a dance to fuse. Wasting a lot of time. Like if it takes Gohan 30 seconds to get to the other side of Earth then the new Boo would have plenty of time to blow up Earth.

i have already explained it:absortion. z-fighters can't sense buu's pieces' ki,buu could caught gohan offguard if buu could survive from gohan's attacks.if kid absorb gohan or gotenks,maybe the genki-dama would not be enough to kill buu.well,that is my explaintion .

Gohan and Gotenks were only caught off-guard because that Boo was smart though. This one isn't. How do we know he isn't going to instinctively try and throw the stuff at them? They would be much too strong to get caught in that type of absorption. If this Boo wasn't so animal-like then I would understand. This Boo lacks the brains to catch these characters off-guard in this manner.

False. Goku was 100% when he first transformed and attacked Kid Boo. He stated so, and he even opened up with the Kamehameha, which BASED SOLELY ON GOKU"S STATEMENT ABOUT GOING ALL OUT (100%) FOR THE SAKE OF THE UNIVERSE, was at full power. These 2 concrete facts simply outweigh Goku's ONE statement. Hell, on the VizBig edition of the manga, he said he had been tryin' to finish Kid Boo.

Incorrect. How do you know Goku was at 100% when he first transformed? Goku may have said he would go all out. That could mean in transformations only. Or, Goku transformed and wasn't at maximum power at the start of the fight. Trying to build his way up to that battle power over the course of the fight but failing. And don't speak half the conversation making it sound like Goku was trying to finish Pure Boo at 100% already because if you add the dialogue Vegeta said before that then it is clear that he needed to build up his Ki. What Goku said was he had been tryin' to build up his Ki to finish Pure Boo. But hasn't been able to. That is what is said. I'll even quote straight from the Viz translation:

Vegeta: "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your Ki with SSJ3 and you should be able to obliterate him!"
Goku: Well... I've been tryin' to, but... I haven't had the chance!"

I'm sorry. But it's a simple fact that if Goku was at 100% and launched the Kamehameha he wouldn't be spouting that he needed his full power to defeat Pure Boo. Never in the history of dragon ball has a character used his full power and still believed their full power is enough to beat someone. Look at the most arrogant character in the series, Vegeta. He believed he could beat Freeza's final form and launched all of his power at Freeza. Only for Freeza to dispatch it. Causing him to come to the realisation that he couldn't beat him.

He overestimated himself because he himself said he thought he could do better, and because he said himself he needed a whole minute to generate enough ki to finish off Boo. Notice Goku doesn't say "I need a minute to get to full power" - he said "I need a minute to gather enough ki to wipe him off"

He didn't say he thought he could do better. What he said was "But I thought this would be better..." as in he thought it would be better to fight without the Potara. Goku also says later "I got close to full power... ...But I'm losing Ki again...!" So clearly he is aiming for full power.

That is a clear indication that he was going to gather energy like a special beam cannon-like attack, which would have been beyond his power level like Piccolo did in the Saiyan Saga.

Charging Ki attacks and charging Ki are two different things. In the Saiyan Saga Piccolo, who was already at 100% of his full power, charged an attack that amplified his full power Ki. Vegeta does it against Cell, charging his Final Flash to levels that would damage Cell. Goku also did it against Cell when he was charging his Kamehameha. Even if you believe he was at 100% at the start, did he charge the Kamehameha? No. He didn't even say its name. He just did the hand gestures. So you could also look at the scenario as Goku needed a gap to produce a properly charged Kamehameha but Boo didn't allow him by attacking quickly.

[Confidence Matters]

Even the experts can be off, though.

I enjoy the translations, but there's no way "A saiyan is most powerful in its ape form! A saiyan that still has its tail!" can be confused with “Wanna hear something good?... When Saiyans become Oozaru, their battle power becomes 10 times what it is as a human!!!!" Sure it gets the general point across, but Herms's translation is more precise. The panel in the Japanese manga even has a 10 in it.

Or "But my only chance is to increase my power" with "“Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5, it still won't have any effect on him!!!!”

Most of Herms's lines match-up with the Anime subs more than the Manga.

The official translations definitely aren't bad by any means, but they're not perfect.

Japanese and english are both so complex to be honest that it is damn-near impossible to 100% translate correctly. I've seen other japanese-to-english translation (different versions of certain interviews than the ones already translated on this site for example) and there are differences that depending on who you are, can be totally different in tone and in definition etc.

BTW I know VizBig americanized the hell out of the japanese manga. But Herms has one line that is vage, and might as well not be there. This is where VizBig takes precedence.

The line in question is the one where Kibito kai says that Kid Boo gained a heart through absorption[s] or something like this.

In the VizBig edition they make a judgment call and decide that Boo has had both Kai souls tame/weaken him.

Which means Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo

And since VizBig is official, and Herms' lines is not only unofficial, but inconclusive & vague, VizBig takes precedence over it in this one instance.

This has been my entire point from the jump BTW if you look at my early posts about Kid Boo.

[Hitiro]

Japanese and english are both so complex to be honest that it is damn-near impossible to 100% translate correctly. I've seen other japanese-to-english translation (different versions of certain interviews than the ones already translated on this site for example) and there are differences that depending on who you are, can be totally different in tone and in definition etc.

BTW I know VizBig americanized the hell out of the japanese manga. But Herms has one line that is vage, and might as well not be there. This is where VizBig takes precedence.

The line in question is the one where Kibito kai says that Kid Boo gained a heart through absorption[s] or something like this.

In the VizBig edition they make a judgment call and decide that Boo has had both Kai souls tame/weaken him.

Which means Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo

And since VizBig is official, and Herms' lines is not only unofficial, but inconclusive & vague, VizBig takes precedence over it in this one instance.

This has been my entire point from the jump BTW if you look at my early posts about Kid Boo.

The problem with this is that the dialogue from the Viz translation talks nothing about any of the Kaioshin weakening him only taming him. So we could easily just conclude that both Kaioshin increased his power. Only Herms translation suggests, at least, one of them weakened Boo.

Therefore Buff Boo > Evil Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Boo > Mr. Boo

[AvatarReiko]

He wasn't smiling when Goku kicked him in the back of the head when he IT'd behind him.
He wasn't smiling when Goku took a munch out of his head.
He wasn't smiling when Goku was blowing him back Kiai attacks
He wasn't smiling when attempted to one shot Goku when he hit him his candy beam

Please show me where Kid Boo in these instances was steaming, veiny and with a very strained face?

Why are you dodging. You initially said that he was smiling and enjoying himself the whole time. I debunked your claims by providing you with instances where he wasn't. Either way, him and Goku were evenly matched in that skirmish. He couldn't hurt Goku any more than Goku could hurt him. Goku even tanks one his kamehmehas. Buu beat Vegeta brutally, without prejudice. I wonder why he couldn't do that to Goku.

Moreover, he doesn't have to be steaming or veiny to be annoyed or frustrated or putting in effort.

[Confidence Matters]

Incorrect. How do you know Goku was at 100% when he first transformed? Goku may have said he would go all out.

EXACTLY MY FRIEND! CASE CLOSED! Why go SSJ3, and fire a kamehameha AFTER stating he was going to go 100% to fight Kid Boo for the sake of the universe if he wasn't serious!?

I'm sorry. But it's a simple fact that if Goku was at 100% and launched the Kamehameha he wouldn't be spouting that he needed his full power to defeat Pure Boo.

He didn't say he needed his full power though. He said nothing about full power - nor did he said anything about recovering... he simply said he needs to GATHER ki for 1 minute. Like I said, Goku was already at full power at the start, and realized he wasn't going to do anything to with that level, so he needed to increase it beyond that by GATHERING ki, probably similar to special beam cannon-like attack. He states gathering rather than recover. Goku was planning to go beyond his normal SSJ3 level to kill Boo, meaning Kid Boo > SSJ3 Goku.

He didn't say he thought he could do better. What he said was "But I thought this would be better..." as in he thought it would be better to fight without the Potara.

Clear case of Goku overestimating himself to look cool to Vegeta.

Goku also says later "I got close to full power... ...But I'm losing Ki again...!" So clearly he is aiming for full power.

His full power was simply a checkpoint/benchmark. He notes that he is almost at full power, but is losing ki.

Charging Ki attacks and charging Ki are two different things. In the Saiyan Saga Piccolo, who was already at 100% of his full power, charged an attack that amplified his full power Ki. Vegeta does it against Cell, charging his Final Flash to levels that would damage Cell. Goku also did it against Cell when he was charging his Kamehameha. Even if you believe he was at 100% at the start, did he charge the Kamehameha? No. He didn't even say its name. He just did the hand gestures. So you could also look at the scenario as Goku needed a gap to produce a properly charged Kamehameha but Boo didn't allow him by attacking quickly.

Considering Goku during the entire Boo saga never said the words to his kamehameha, it's silly to say he never used it at full power otherwise he wouldn't use it. Secondly, Goku had more than enough time to charge a massive kamehameha when Kid Boo was busy with Vegeta. Like he charge the Spirit Bomb. Goku had more than a minute to gather his ki into a kamehameha. of course this was impossible because Goku's SSJ3 is terrible. And thus was never going to kill Boo on his own. Thus Kid Boo > Goku SSJ3.

[Confidence Matters]

The problem with this is that the dialogue from the Viz translation talks nothing about any of the Kaioshin weakening him only taming him. So we could easily just conclude that both Kaioshin increased his power. Only Herms translation suggests, at least, one of them weakened Boo.

Herms doesn't suggest that at all, especially based on the context of that line, and that line only without any other line that comes before or after. That's an issue with just having battle power-related lines.

The line by itself both suggests that BOTH absorptions gave Boo a heart (in this context means weakened), and suggest either Dai Kaioshin or S. Kaioshin gave him a heart (weakened Boo).

Thus, it's vague and inconclusive. SO if you can use it to support your point, I can also use that line to support my line.

Considering that via the VizBig edition of the manga (which takes precedence over Herms' line here), Dai Kaioshin tamed Boo and thus resulted in a weaker Boo, since it is stated that S. Kaioshin also tamed Boo as well, then that absorption also resulted in a weaker Boo as well.


You can't argue against facts. The fact is Herms' line is vague, unofficial, and inconclusive, therefore you simply cannot cite it. It is invalid. The fact is the VizBig edition is OFFICIAL, and its line takes precedence over Herms' line. The fact is that in it, VizBig edition says BOTH souls tamed/weakened Boo.

THUS

Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo > Fat Boo

[Hitiro]

Incorrect. How do you know Goku was at 100% when he first transformed? Goku may have said he would go all out.

EXACTLY MY FRIEND! CASE CLOSED! Why go SSJ3, and fire a kamehameha AFTER stating he was going to go 100% to fight Kid Boo for the sake of the universe if he wasn't serious!?

Good job ignoring everything else I said. If you had read on instead of being completely biased about your opinion then you would have seen that while Goku said he would go all out that doesn't mean transforming into SSJ3 means he starts at full power. How do you know that he doesn't have to build up to that Ki?

He didn't say he needed his full power though. He said nothing about full power - nor did he said anything about recovering... he simply said he needs to GATHER ki for 1 minute. Like I said, Goku was already at full power at the start, and realized he wasn't going to do anything to with that level, so he needed to increase it beyond that by GATHERING ki, probably similar to special beam cannon-like attack. He states gathering rather than recover. Goku was planning to go beyond his normal SSJ3 level to kill Boo, meaning Kid Boo > SSJ3 Goku.

Whatever you feel comfortable with, let's pretend that he had to gather Ki beyond his maximum strength. Doesn't change that he could beat him after gathering his Ki. And at the point he says this to Vegeta he's not at full power any more. Goku says later that he is close to full power but his power has started dropping off again. Meaning that his Ki had to have dropped off once before.

Clear case of Goku overestimating himself to look cool to Vegeta.

Clear case of Goku thinking that the fight would have gone smoother. Not that he is overestimating himself.

Goku also says later "I got close to full power... ...But I'm losing Ki again...!" So clearly he is aiming for full power.

His full power was simply a checkpoint/benchmark. He notes that he is almost at full power, but is losing ki.

He had lost Ki once before. So during the fight against Pure Boo, if you believe he started the fight at 100%, he didn't provide a Kamehameha at the right level to finish Boo and from there at some point he began losing Ki. Had he charged the Kamehameha to the correct level then he would have been fine.

Charging Ki attacks and charging Ki are two different things. In the Saiyan Saga Piccolo, who was already at 100% of his full power, charged an attack that amplified his full power Ki. Vegeta does it against Cell, charging his Final Flash to levels that would damage Cell. Goku also did it against Cell when he was charging his Kamehameha. Even if you believe he was at 100% at the start, did he charge the Kamehameha? No. He didn't even say its name. He just did the hand gestures. So you could also look at the scenario as Goku needed a gap to produce a properly charged Kamehameha but Boo didn't allow him by attacking quickly.

Considering Goku during the entire Boo saga never said the words to his kamehameha, it's silly to say he never used it at full power otherwise he wouldn't use it. Secondly, Goku had more than enough time to charge a massive kamehameha when Kid Boo was busy with Vegeta. Like he charge the Spirit Bomb. Goku had more than a minute to gather his ki into a kamehameha. of course this was impossible because Goku's SSJ3 is terrible. And thus was never going to kill Boo on his own. Thus Kid Boo > Goku SSJ3.

Goku would have to use some sort of Ki attack to finish Boo. You can hardly break the spine of a bubble gum monster. And for your second point it's moot. Goku would have to charge his Ki to full power before charging a Kamehameha. If Goku is at 15% of his power then the Kamehameha isn't going to be much stronger than 15% Why do you think during the Goku says "Wait!!! Don't shoot the Kamehameha while you're revved up that high!"? It's different in the case for the Genki Dama, the Genki Dama uses other peoples Ki. Not Goku's.

[Confidence Matters]

Why are you dodging. You initially said that he was smiling and enjoying himself the whole time.

Read the post, don't skim - I strictly said Kid Boo was MOSTLY having fun throughout the battle with Goku.

My exact, unedited quote:

"Most of Kid Boo's expressions during the battle with Goku SSJ3 suggest he was having fun with Goku and not taking the fight serious. He was smiling and laughing, and we already know Boo's expression when he's seriously fighting - veins, strained face, some instances steam, etc."

So I ask you, where was Kid Boo's veins, steam, and extremely strained faces during his battle with Goku?

I'll wait.

Either way, him and Goku were evenly matched in that skirmish.

Yep, totally even with Goku with lots of scratches, and huffing and puffing to the point Vegeta had to save him, and Kid Boo dancing around having the time of his life, 100% fresh and 100% damage-free (since it is stated Boos can only hurt Boo - or rather, magical beings can hurt Boo). What an even bout, eh.

Goku SSJ3: "He keeps draggin' this out! Little punk's havin' fun!"

Suppressed Kid Boo > Goku SSJ3 full power.

He couldn't hurt Goku any more than Goku could hurt him. Goku even tanks one his kamehmehas.

A kamehameha that isn't anywhere near Kid Boo's main move let alone his strongest attack. He saw it once or twice earlier and then tried it for shits and giggles. Look at his shit-eating grin after he fires it.

Buu beat Vegeta brutally, without prejudice. I wonder why he couldn't do that to Goku.

Gee, I wonder if it's because Goku was 4 times stronger than Vegeta... By your logic, Satan is equal to Kid Boo now since Satan didn't get beat mercilessly like Vegeta SSJ2 did, and actually tanked Kid Boo's punch without even KOing.

Moreover, he doesn't have to be steaming or veiny to be annoyed or frustrated or putting in effort.

Putting in effort isn't anywhere near putting your maximum effort. These are indicators of Boo putting in maximum effort, and thus lack of them means Boo isn't putting in his maximum effort.

[Hitiro]

The problem with this is that the dialogue from the Viz translation talks nothing about any of the Kaioshin weakening him only taming him. So we could easily just conclude that both Kaioshin increased his power. Only Herms translation suggests, at least, one of them weakened Boo.

Herms doesn't suggest that at all, especially based on the context of that line, and that line only without any other line that comes before or after. That's an issue with just having battle power-related lines.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Yes, Herms does suggest that. The line that isn't in the Viz clearly says that one or more of the absorptions lowered his power. In the Viz translation it mentions nothing of the Kaioshin lowering Boo's power. Only taming his evil side.

The line by itself both suggests that BOTH absorptions gave Boo a heart (in this context means weakened), and suggest either Dai Kaioshin or S. Kaioshin gave him a heart (weakened Boo).

In context it means nothing but taming his evil spirit. No power decrease is ever stated. You're the one who said that S. Kaioshin isn't stated to increase or decrease Boo's power therefore he doesn't do anything. So why is it when something isn't stated you get to make assumptions? Yet when anybody else does it they're wrong and you are right?

Thus, it's vague and inconclusive. SO if you can use it to support your point, I can also use that line to support my line.

Sorry. But you're arguing that Herms translations are wrong because their unofficial. But then when I try to make a point with "official" translations you don't seem to like it. Because all it does is prove that you can't listen to reason and can't even look at this subject objectively. I've seen you dodge points and try to work around stated facts by saying things like "Oh! He's lying." I think you need to think more about your own opinion here because you're on the losing end, lol.

Considering that via the VizBig edition of the manga (which takes precedence over Herms' line here), Dai Kaioshin tamed Boo and thus resulted in a weaker Boo, since it is stated that S. Kaioshin also tamed Boo as well, then that absorption also resulted in a weaker Boo as well.

Or, taming just means that S. Kaioshin made Boo kinder and not weakened him. Why are you assuming that it made him weaker for? Unless you've got a line from the manga to prove it I suggest you drop this point. Because all you're doing here is applying your opinion. The only line that could even possibly suggest S. Kaioshin weakened Boo is the very line you say is "unofficial."

You can't argue against facts. The fact is Herms' line is vague, unofficial, and inconclusive, therefore you simply cannot cite it. It is invalid. The fact is the VizBig edition is OFFICIAL, and its line takes precedence over Herms' line. The fact is that in it, VizBig edition says BOTH souls tamed/weakened Boo.

THUS

Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Super Boo > Fat Boo

I haven't cited Herms' line. I've been providing you with lines from Viz. The fact is that in VizBig edition it says both souls tamed(Not weakened, weakening is never mentioned that is your own biased opinion shining through.) Boo.

Therefore Buff Boo > Evil Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Boo > Mr. Boo.

[Kaboom]

Confidence Matters, using huge bold letters and chanting the same arbitrary "facts" over and over and over is not a good way to debate, or earn the respect of other members.