Where does Piccolo stand?

[Tyro]

Based entirely on the fact that Piccolo is still standing like SS Vegeta and SS Trunks after fighting his Cell Junior, I'd estimate Piccolo to be somewhere between 50% and 100% of SS Goku's power at the Cell Games. After that... Well, it's muddled to say the least. Piccolo doesn't, to me, give off the same impression as before, like he'd be training to get stronger 24/7. More like he's settled into a lifestyle of instructing Dende in the ways of godhood, and content to live at God's Palace. I highly doubt he'd get any weaker than before, but I also doubt he got much stronger as well.

[Duo]

Yeah, I agree with this. Piccolo's reduced to trash in the Buu arc, I almost feel like his RoSaT trip was unintentionally retconned out.

Considering Piccolo never has a fight that amounts to mattering in the least bit at all ever again, I would say I agree. He doesn't even get mentioned as "keeping up" against the Cell Jr's.

But even beyond that, Piccolo's prowess as a fighter has been completely disregarded as well. He could at least throw an insightful comment in now and then while watching higher level combatants fight.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But even beyond that, Piccolo's prowess as a fighter has been completely disregarded as well. He could at least throw an insightful comment in now and then while watching higher level combatants fight.

That's true also, Piccolo was pretty much a baby sitter in the Buu saga.

[Dayspring]

Yeah, I just don't see Piccolo surpassing Cell in the least. That would put him above SSJ2 Gohan at the 25th Budokai and I don't see him being anywhere near equal to any level of SSJ2. He's strong, but his motivations for training have become fundamentally different. I guess I'd peg him as being on par with SSJ Gohan at the 25th Budokai era.

EDIT: Just recalled that Buu-era Piccolo commented on how SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (post-senzu heal) is on par with SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That gives us an idea as to how strong his Buu-era strength is.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

At least he gains relevance in GT

[dbzfan7]

EDIT: Just recalled that Buu-era Piccolo commented on how SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (post-senzu heal) is on par with SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That gives us an idea as to how strong his Buu-era strength is.

From Vegeta and Piccolo's comment, we have an idea that Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku are in the same league as SSJ2 Kid Gohan, but still somewhat stronger. Also shows how little the gains over 7 years were between Goku and Vegeta outside of transformations.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

EDIT: Just recalled that Buu-era Piccolo commented on how SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (post-senzu heal) is on par with SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That gives us an idea as to how strong his Buu-era strength is.

From Vegeta and Piccolo's comment, we have an idea that Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku are in the same league as SSJ2 Kid Gohan, but still somewhat stronger. Also shows how little the gains over 7 years were between Goku and Vegeta outside of transformations.

Doesn't necessarily mean they're little. Gohan was a lot stronger than Goku at the CG, and Goku in the Buu saga surpasses that [not by much mind you, but he still surpasses him by a noticeable amount]

I think Goku's gains from CG to Buu are comparable to the gains from the 3 year gap from Trunks to the Androids.

[Dayspring]

EDIT: Just recalled that Buu-era Piccolo commented on how SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (post-senzu heal) is on par with SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That gives us an idea as to how strong his Buu-era strength is.

From Vegeta and Piccolo's comment, we have an idea that Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku are in the same league as SSJ2 Kid Gohan, but still somewhat stronger. Also shows how little the gains over 7 years were between Goku and Vegeta outside of transformations.

Doesn't necessarily mean they're little. Gohan was a lot stronger than Goku at the CG, and Goku in the Buu saga surpasses that [not by much mind you, but he still surpasses him by a noticeable amount]

I think Goku's gains from CG to Buu are comparable to the gains from the 3 year gap from Trunks to the Androids.

I disagree about Goku being stronger than Cell Games Gohan at this point. The implication is that SSJ2 Majin Vegeta is equal to SSJ2 Goku. It takes the strength gain of fighting SSJ2 Goku for SSJ2 Majin Vegeta to be "equal to or maybe even stronger" (paraphrasing Piccolo, not being sarcastic) than SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Vegeta blatantly says Goku is stronger than Gohan was against Cell when Goku transforms into SS2..

[dbzfan7]

EDIT: Just recalled that Buu-era Piccolo commented on how SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (post-senzu heal) is on par with SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That gives us an idea as to how strong his Buu-era strength is.

From Vegeta and Piccolo's comment, we have an idea that Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku are in the same league as SSJ2 Kid Gohan, but still somewhat stronger. Also shows how little the gains over 7 years were between Goku and Vegeta outside of transformations.

Doesn't necessarily mean they're little. Gohan was a lot stronger than Goku at the CG, and Goku in the Buu saga surpasses that [not by much mind you, but he still surpasses him by a noticeable amount]

I think Goku's gains from CG to Buu are comparable to the gains from the 3 year gap from Trunks to the Androids.

Compared to past gains, the 7 year gap is pretty small.

[Demon187]

Piccolo by the end of Z definitely atleast reaches Cell/Dabura level but who knows if his age makes him weaker in the new movie. And as for being stronger than Goten and Trunks that's obvious. Piccolo was atleast stronger than any SS1 after fusing with Kami, not to mention these are kids.

[Dayspring]

Vegeta blatantly says Goku is stronger than Gohan was against Cell when Goku transforms into SS2..

I forgot about that. I guess that means SSJ2 Majin Vegeta isn't completely equal to SSJ2 Goku after all (at least, prior to taking the senzu).

Piccolo by the end of Z definitely atleast reaches Cell/Dabura level but who knows if his age makes him weaker in the new movie. And as for being stronger than Goten and Trunks that's obvious. Piccolo was at least stronger than any SS1 after fusing with Kami, not to mention these are kids.

SSJ Trunks is strong enough to force SSJ Vegeta to actually block seriously. SSJ Goten almost accidentally killed SSJ Gohan (Saiyaman saga, but still) and SSJ Trunks almost accidentally killed #18. The whole schtick behind them is that it's ridiculous how powerful they are considering how young they are.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo by the end of Z definitely atleast reaches Cell/Dabura level but who knows if his age makes him weaker in the new movie. And as for being stronger than Goten and Trunks that's obvious. Piccolo was atleast stronger than any SS1 after fusing with Kami, not to mention these are kids.

How the hell is Piccolo old ?

Kami lived for over 300 years.

[Saiga]

Piccolo by the end of Z definitely atleast reaches Cell/Dabura level but who knows if his age makes him weaker in the new movie. And as for being stronger than Goten and Trunks that's obvious. Piccolo was atleast stronger than any SS1 after fusing with Kami, not to mention these are kids.

Super Saiyan 1 is not a set level. The only SS1s he surpassed by fusing with God were those before the RoSaT training. Come the Cell Games, all the Super Saiyans had surpassed him by mastering the form.

And Goten/Trunks show the traits of mastered Super Saiyans as well.

Being a kid didn't stop Gohan from surpassing Piccolo.

[CortoMaltese]

Totally exploded by Cell First form. A potential far from the 5 Saiya-jin even with training in the Hyperbolic time Chamber.
So during CG, i think he is inferior to Cell second form.
Goku think he is totally useless.
Cell Junior just play with him, in the Chapter 408 Piccolo is showed with some serious damages when Cell Junior has nothing.
In the Buu Saga he shit on his pant against Kaioshin, so maybe he is a bit stronger than Cell second form, but that's all. The huge gap between Cell second form and Perfect Cell is just too much for him. At best (EOZ) he is somewhere between Super Bejita and Goku SSJFP. Probably totally exceeded by Adult Goten/Trunks.

[Presto88]

Honestly, its so hard to place him anywhere, fact wise the last clear indication of his strength we have is that he stood with both SS Vegeta and Trunks after the Cell jnr battle. So at the very least we can place him around their level, lower middle or higher realm is irrelevant, but he is certainly in their realm of power at this point.

Now beyond that well it just baffles me, to elaborate on this consider all we knew about Piccolo once the Cell saga had finished, permanently merged with Kami the former Guardian of Earth, strength level in the realm of the Super Saiyans, Goku had died, Trunks had returned to his own time and neither Vegeta nor Gohan for separate reasons (none related to strength) would be suitable to replace Goku's role as protector of the Earth. Now with consideration to all that the Piccolo that had been established over the course of the story up unto this point would have taken it upon himself to assume the role as protector of earth which means that his motivation to continually improve himself would have been at all time highs especially considering the new found attachment he would have felt toward the earth (Kami's influence) and knowing that Goku would no longer be there to bail them out.

So in 7 years with this kind of motivation how he wasn't at the very least around Gohan's SS2 level baffles me, as it has been a point throughout the series to show that when Piccolo trained with purpose his gains were exceptional and in some cases phenomenal (he also never stops training regardless), in my opinion this was actually a point of emphasis for the character.....until the Buu saga that it is. By this time, all though it is very hard to conclude exactly where he stands it appears to me that he either;

a) hasn't progressed at all or minimally since the time skip
b) has actually gotten weaker.

Both of which just dont make sense, considering everything that had been established beforehand, but hey I mean even Gohan is getting this kind of treatment now, so unless you are Goku or Vegeta I guess story and consistency doesn't really matter anymore.

[Saiga]

There's nothing inconsistent with the idea that he continued to train and just wasn't that strong. Even if he had trained, Goku and Vegeta were still pushing themselves like crazy, and Gohan was massively ahead of him at the Cell Games. He didn't have much room to catch up.

[Presto88]

There's nothing inconsistent with the idea that he continued to train and just wasn't that strong. Even if he had trained, Goku and Vegeta were still pushing themselves like crazy, and Gohan was massively ahead of him at the Cell Games. He didn't have much room to catch up.

Well, thats what I was getting at, he was already around Vegetas level by the end of the Cell Saga, and had more reason than anyone to push himself considering the state of affairs after Cells defeat. This is where the inconsistency comes in, every other time in the series up unto this point had showed that when he was motivated to train he made exceptional gains, but apparently this time, he made none, even though for all intents and purposes he should never had been more motivated to be as powerful as possible.

Just to put things into perspective, heres my strength levels at the end of the Cell Saga

Gohan SS2 -12-24 depends on the multiplier, which is hard to determine.
Gohan SS1 - 6
Goku SS1 - 4-5
Cell Jnr - 3-3.5
Vegeta Trunks Piccolo 1.8-2.5

So best case Piccolo had to only increase his power 6 fold over the 7 years, and worst case by 12 to be at SS2 level....this is a guy who when motivated we had never seen less than a 3x gain in a year, seems very reasonable to me, but completely inconsistent knowing where the character stood strength wise during the Buu Saga.

[Saiga]

Well for starters, putting Piccolo at Vegeta and Trunks' level is already a big assumption. I think more evidence points to him being weaker than that point.

And secondly it's unlikely that he'd get a sixfold increase over that period of training. Nobody increased their strength by that much during the 7 year gap, so I don't see why Piccolo would. The time-skip training has never been consistent, but the general trend was that it became less effective over time. Plus, he's got nobody to spare with, like he did all the other times he's trained.

Given that he felt after his RoSaT training that he'd be useless, I feel he must have had higher expectations when going into the room, but didn't realize them. I think it's reasonable to say he's reached the point where it isn't easy for him to just gain lots more strength from training.

[Presto88]

Well for starters, putting Piccolo at Vegeta and Trunks' level is already a big assumption. I think more evidence points to him being weaker than that point.

Really, how exactly is this a "big" assumption? Firstly I'm stating he is within their realms of power, doesn't mean stronger, doesn't even mean equal, but certainly close enough. How did I come to this conclusion, simple really, only the three of them were standing at the end of their battle with equally strong opponents, now how I can make such a big assumption between actually beating an opponent and being knocked unconscious by one is beyond me, all three of these warriors fell into the category of not being able to win, but still not being knocked out...they are most definitely within the same realm of strength, there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

And secondly it's unlikely that he'd get a sixfold increase over that period of training. Nobody increased their strength by that much during the 7 year gap, so I don't see why Piccolo would.

Why, the trend hadn't been for them to become less effective when it came to Piccolo, as a matter of fact to compensate for his lack of ability to transform, his gains become even more pronounced through pure training. He goes from a 3x increase in the Saiyan Saga, to God knows what on Namek, to the the one above all knows what during the Andorid arc, even his time in the ROSAT was distinctly mentioned by Goku as improving him a lot, so much so that when Goku said he was still no threat to Cell, Trunks seemed shocked.

The time-skip training has never been consistent, but the general trend was that it became less effective over time. Plus, he's got nobody to spare with, like he did all the other times he's trained.

But I do agree with you that training most certainly did lose some of its potency over time, but in Piccolo's case even a 12x increase over 7 years is an incredible step backward from what he had already shown us he was capable of doing. You talk about the guy as if he were shown to be some sort of slouch (hence my point about inconsistency), when it comes to pure training he is responsible for some of the most impressive gains in the entire series.