New "Remastered Box Set" Information

[Pakku]

DaemonCorps, your third option and the one you've used for the first images is in my opinion not realistic. First of all it's directly messing with the animation, which is, if possible, even worse than just changing the aspect ratio by cropping. Secondly, it would be prohibitively expensive and time-consuming; counting 24 frames per second, for 291 20-something-minute episodes, it would come out to around 8,380,800 frames they would have to manually photoshop. Finally, it would most likely look like complete crap.

And I've edited some of DBW's shots to show the cropping:









In this last one, you could re-frame it to include Gohan, but then you'd lose sight of the ground, which frankly looks a bit disturbing:



Not so hot. :/

[Kula]

I figured I would eventually cave in and get the box set (I've already paid for my pre-order), but after seeing DBW's examples, I'm seriously considering getting a refund.

[DaemonCorps]

Yeah, I do agree that doing what I did with the screencaps for every episode would be pretty costly. But as long as FUNi's not answering these questions, it's good to see every possibility (no matter how ridiculous). After all, it's FUNi we're talking about.

Also, I forgot a fourth option: FUNi could pay attention to where the black bars will end up and alter it accordingly instead of just putting them up. It would still lead to cropping, but it wouldn't be as bad as blindly croppping. As for those shots like that four-way shot in the Saiyan Saga, they could always pan up to show everyone.

[Blitzen]

Believe it or not, your voice can be heard if it goes thru the right channels.

I'm not saying it doesn't, because I'm a firm believer that the Internet is very good at these sorts of things. What I am saying is that since all points have been raised, all points have been posted, so theres no reason for mne to continue complaining.

As for DBW's screenshots, just curious, are you taking into consideration that it isn't just a 16:9 crop of a normal 4:3 master and that there will still be new stuff on the sides?

[ect5150]

As for DBW's screenshots, just curious, are you taking into consideration that it isn't just a 16:9 crop of a normal 4:3 master and that there will still be new stuff on the sides?

Where I made that original cropped photo everyone refers to (the 4-way split), I did mention they are using a bit more on the sides, but its the best thing to a rough approximation we currently have outside of funimation giving us that same screen shot.


Also, for those that want to view an episode cropped without a lot of work, Media Player Classic will play videos with ffdshow, and you can have ffdshow crop the pictures in real time (which is where I got my cropped screen caps from, having it play the VOB files)

[Pakku]

Also, I forgot a fourth option: FUNi could pay attention to where the black bars will end up and alter it accordingly instead of just putting them up. It would still lead to cropping, but it wouldn't be as bad as blindly croppping. As for those shots like that four-way shot in the Saiyan Saga, they could always pan up to show everyone.

I'm thinking this is most likely what they'll do, kind of like my last example shot. The first one was just cropped blindly, just as much from the top and bottom, in the other more was cut from the bottom. Essentially a classic "pan & scan" but trying to position a widescreen box in a 4:3 frame instead of the other way around.

And speaking of possibilities, what if this whole thing was just a plot by Funimation? What if it was really an elaborate plan to get people to talk about the sets and get free publicity? Then when everybody's been complaining for a few weeks they announce that "after careful consideration and heavy response from fans" they've decided to reverse the decision and release it in 4:3 after all, and then everyone will be really happy and buy it. Kind of like starting a fire in order to put it out yourself, and make yourself look like a hero! Genius! [/conspiracy]

[Blitzen]

That's a very ADV-esque tactic.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Also, I forgot a fourth option: FUNi could pay attention to where the black bars will end up and alter it accordingly instead of just putting them up. It would still lead to cropping, but it wouldn't be as bad as blindly croppping. As for those shots like that four-way shot in the Saiyan Saga, they could always pan up to show everyone.

While I suppose that would soften the blow, it strikes me as out-of-character. That's a lot of trouble to go through just to get the show into this format, which along with the remaster is a giant hassle to begin with; it totals to more effort than I could see them bothering with.

But far be it for me to second-guess FUNimation at this point, since I never saw these sets coming in the first place.

And talking of possibilities, what if this whole thing was just a plot by Funimation? What if it was really an elaborate plan to get people to talk about the sets and get free publicity? Then when everybody's been complaining for a few weeks they announce that "after careful consideration and heavy response from fans" they've decided to reverse the decision and release it in 4:3 after all, and then everyone will be really happy and buy it. Kind of like starting a fire in order to put it out yourself and make yourself look like a hero! Genius! [/conspiracy]

Wouldn't that be something? I had that same thought. Reminds me of Lisa Simpson and her "angel bones".

It would be genius, but I'd be incredibly surprised if that in fact turned out to be their plan. Still, I think more than just a few people (read: everybody) wouldn't mind the hoax if it meant the release would be in 4:3 after all, which would essentially make this THE perfect R1 release.

[DBW]

As for DBW's screenshots, just curious, are you taking into consideration that it isn't just a 16:9 crop of a normal 4:3 master and that there will still be new stuff on the sides?

Yeah, I pointed that out in my post, and quite frankly, I don't see anything to gain. Aside from Oolong's left eye (which I could care less about), I don't see anything in those scenes vertically that's worth trading off for more horizontal image.
"Also compare what will be lost to what will be gained on the sides. Trading off Vegeta's impact after the Genki Dama to capture a bit more of his foot? No thank you!"

I think the best we can hope for is DaemonCorps fourth option: shifting the frame up or down depending on where the focus is. If I do end up getting the first set for some strange reason, it won't be until I see some comparison shots between the original ratio and FUNimation's new widescreen print (not counting the shot they showed on their forums, which is ridiculous). If they can somehow keep the action on the screen, then fine, but until I see it I'm not gonna believe it.

It's not so much an issue of losing or gaining image (although losing the image always sucks), I'm more concerned over whether or not they can keep the action in frame. From what I saw in episode 34, the 4:3 ratio is just catching the action (I'm talking about the focus of the movement, etc. not just still frames). Can they maintain this is 16:9? We'll have to see.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I think the best we can hope for is DaemonCorps fourth option: shifting the frame up or down depending on where the focus is.

We can hope for it, sure. But that little trick never seems to get us anywhere. And I was the one with the most hope, preaching like a bitch to the rest of yas, way back on page 6 of this freaking thread.

But after years of how FUNi has treated DBZ, I think this time we need to go on a little faith here. I think we need to believe . . . this FEELS to me like the time when they will surprise the hell out of us all and finally get everything right in one way or another.

Present Lemmy: Did you see the image comparisons?

Past Lemmy: Yeah.

Present Lemmy: And?

Past Lemmy: And . . . oops?

(*Present Lemmy starts beating on his past self*)

Future Lemmy: Uhhh . . . look, could you not do that . . . ?


(Well, maybe I'm being a bit drastic . . . things could still turn out all right, and it's still a fine set regardless. It's just that the whole widescreen thing-- I don't know; we were so close to a perfect release, and it's so damned unfortunate and frustrating for a lot of people that I wonder how many of them actually cried. )

[Hero 004]

That trailer on DragonballZ.com really pumped me up. I posted a while back saying that I thought this was a bad idea, but hey, I've taken a 180 on this. It's cool that they would release them individually first and then collect them in a box set in an even better format. I could definatly notice the nice picture quality and I'm exited for the consistantcy and fun of these sets. It's time for a new era!

[Brad Redfield]

It's time for a new era!

Would that be the era of unnecessary cropping?

Man, we were so damn close to getting a great release of the series.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I've just gotta wonder...we're so caught up on the aspect ratio question that some other things never really came into light. Here are my concerns aside from the widescreen mess:

- Audio fidelity -

Okay, the dub is fine. The Japanese version is aged and in mono, but fine.

But...mixing the two together? We're talking about voiceover tracks recorded in '99-Present, in stereo, mixed over a mono BGM track from the late 80's/early 90's. I remember Pioneer's dubs of the movies being criticized because of the attempt to mix the BGM to stereo, and the BGM showing its age.

If Toei had the BGM in stereo, they would have used it for the DragonBoxes, so its reasonable to believe that the BGM only exists in mixed form as a monaural track. Hence, FUNi's English voice/Japanese BGM track will either be a mono presentation with newer sounding voices and an aged soundtrack that is similar to our current Japanese version, or FUNi will attempt to remix the BGM track which could be a disaster (and typically is when people try to remix something without the discrete masters).

- Video Fidelity -

16:9, 4:3, etc...

What about the quality of the video? This has been brought up plenty, but the undisputed thing that Toei has over FUNi is that they've used DVD space and compression better to present the show so it looks great both still and in motion.

1080p masters? Sounds great. However, I can take pure video gold and turn it to shit if I try and over-compress it. Anyone who has used DivX or any type of codec knows the perils of compression. Single-pass, multi-pass, constant bitrate, variable bitrate, etc.

FUNi doesn't have a great history of utilizing the cutting edge in MPEG-2 compression with regards to DragonBall Z, and the episode to disc ratio makes me (and many others) worry. People say the DragonBoxes did 6 episodes a disc, but it did so with one mono audio track, no subtitles and no extras.

Can FUNi possibly stuff episodes with a 5.1 track, a 2.0 stereo downmix, a 2.0 mono Japanese and a 2.0 mono/stereo English/Japanese combo track and subtitles onto discs without over-compressing the hell out of the video?

I dunno, what are some other things you guys are concerned about? Widescreen is the most prominent, but there's bound to be other less dominant concerns.

-Corey

[Li'l Lemmy]

Hero, Brad and Corey. Yes, you three guys are the embodiment of everything I (and possibly other people) feel when it comes to February 7, 2006.

That trailer on DragonballZ.com really pumped me up. I posted a while back saying that I thought this was a bad idea, but hey, I've taken a 180 on this. It's cool that they would release them individually first and then collect them in a box set in an even better format. I could definatly notice the nice picture quality and I'm exited for the consistantcy and fun of these sets. It's time for a new era!

This is my positive side at work.

Even when the Ultimate Uncuts were first released, I was contemplating what could be possible for the future. The shiny new boxes, with their remasters and new dub, held the promise of a long-awaited "consistency" to the series but at the same time dangled that promise over our heads; everything from Ginyu onward would be slightly different in terms of packaging, presentation and picture.

I was happy for the Ultimate Uncuts, don't get me wrong. They would fill the gap that has annoyed DragonBall fans for years. But with every disc I bought, a secret part of me wondered if the last Namek disc would be THE last we ever heard anything signifigant from DragonBall. Their obligations to the series settled, would FUNimation simply move on and forget? I resorted often to asking myself the question of whether DragonBall was popular enough where the company would choose to revisit it at some point in the future . . . but that future seemed so far off that I never gave it too serious a consideration.

But what's this? Suddenly the Ultimate Uncuts have ground to a halt without explanation, and there are rumors flying around about of . . . something new. Something better. Something we've been waiting for our whole lives, quite possibly. And in a flash that distant future was here! And it came packaged in a box with 39 episodes and a price point so ridiculous that it seemed a new era was burgeoning on the horizon. Rejoice, rejoice!

It was indeed a new era. And as information continues to leak out, I can't help but be thrilled with what's soon to come. About what we used to spend on nine episodes will now buy that and thirty more-- but that's not all. This set is only one of what will be a glorious rebirth for the series, both for fans and FUNimation alike, and I for one will definitely be buying it; it's convenient, it's necessary, and it's about damn time.

My enthusiasm is overwhelming.

Would that be the era of unnecessary cropping?

Man, we were so damn close to getting a great release of the series.

And there's the negative part of me.

We must all ask of our various gods, why, why, WHY?! It's as if we've all struggled together to climb a great mountain, only for a bolt of lightning to strike us all dead the very instant we reach the top. Widescreen isn't an issue that will affect my purchase, but it does affect my perceptions of FUNimation's competence as a company-- and it has nonetheless swept through the DragonBall community like a great plague, sending us all into panic.

You would think with everything the series has been through that FUNimation is painfully aware that we don't have to be sold on a buzzword to buy the series all over again, because everything else they're offering pretty much equates to everything we've ever wanted and makes this a double-dip must-buy. Complete subtitles for the first sixty-something episodes? Boxed sets spanning the entire series? Remastered footage done by a real editing company? English audio over a Japanese soundtrack? Retouched dub where necessary? "Several" special features? With a package like that, there's just no need to go messing with the aspect ratio-- because judging from these comparison images, this going to be one time where less is not more.

We know that they're trying to bring in new buyers. But the real money is going to be in people like you and me, and it's clear that on at least one level they're apealing directly to us; the fans who have been fans and like the series the way it is. "For the first time, all 291 episodes will be presented consistently from beginning to end."

I would think that FUNimation has heard us whine and bitch loudly enough over the years that these days they know what NOT to do. But . . . surprise!!

My "huh?" reaction is an outward sign of my melting mind.

Ah, Corey, you highlight the cautious nitpicking whiner in me.

If Toei had the BGM in stereo, they would have used it for the DragonBoxes, so its reasonable to believe that the BGM only exists in mixed form as a monaural track. Hence, FUNi's English voice/Japanese BGM track will either be a mono presentation with newer sounding voices and an aged soundtrack that is similar to our current Japanese version, or FUNi will attempt to remix the BGM track which could be a disaster (and typically is when people try to remix something without the discrete masters).

Trying to remix the audio on their own would spell disaster, and every fanboy out there would scream bloody murder. I shant believe that FUNimation will be attempting that little stunt.

However, it did cross my mind that the quality of the audio could go either way.

I can't help but notice with my DragonBall DVDs (the original series, mind you) that even with a foreign dialogue track over it (English) the original BGM sounds great-- and for some reason, sounds even better in some places. Compare the audio from the opening sequence in both versions. I don't know why, but the music on the English track sounds louder, clearer and more vibrant than the Japanese track, despite that they're both in mono.

On the other hand, there are instances on other anime DVDs where putting the original BGM behind the dub track has mixed results. Sometimes it's all right, but other times the music sounds far too faded and the voices a little louder than they should be, canceling out the BGM beyond the point where it can feature itself effectively or even sound half as good as it does with the Japanese voices. Sometimes it just sounds really hushed.

What about the quality of the video? This has been brought up plenty, but the undisputed thing that Toei has over FUNi is that they've used DVD space and compression better to present the show so it looks great both still and in motion.

Let's all say it together. FUNimation's history with encoding video sucks from a technical standpoint. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying the show, but it still sucks ass.

But now, they have the chance to become either better with it or far worse. I do have far more pressing concerns about the video than I do the widescreen, because what the hell? Unless FUNimation is planning to encode this release on dual-layer discs, I can't see how they're going to maintain the quality without adding at least one more disc to the 5. Widescreen or no widescreen, shit still looks like shit . . . OR, gold can look like gold and actually help you to forget about the widescreen in the first place!

But just how much can they encode at once? It's like stuffing a bunch of people into a closet; sure, you can all breathe, but you know you could be breathing a lot better if you weren't squeezed between so many fat people.

Well, all right then! What does everyone else think?

[BrollysKin]

After that post I don't think there is anything more to say untill we have more information. Most of the posts in this thread are just people repeating things we already know anyway.

We may get shit, but almost all of the odds are against us. I wish Funimation would get there shit together as does everyone else. But honestly I think this is FUNI's last move. This sounds like this will be the last time they will release this footage unless it would be in HD-DVD.

So yeah it sucks, will I buy it? Yes. Will I be dead inside? Of course.

But remember. We always have the Daizenshuu EX forums to whine to!

[Li'l Lemmy]

After that post I don't think there is anything more to say untill we have more information. Most of the posts in this thread are just people repeating things we already know anyway.

I don't know if I would go quite that far. Yes, there's a lot of debate that all sounds the same, but from within such heated discussion we occasionally will unearth another nugget that adds to the overall picture, such as Daemon's conspiracy theory about drawn-in footage.

The other thing, is . . . well, a lot of people just like to bitch.

We may get shit, but almost all of the odds are against us. I wish Funimation would get there shit together as does everyone else. But honestly I think this is FUNI's last move. This sounds like this will be the last time they will release this footage unless it would be in HD-DVD.

I have a hard time believing that they won't. If they'd followed the Ultimate Uncuts through to the end and given it up, I would have never considered a potential HD-DVD release. But obviously if they value DBZ enough to start all over again, then they'll try to continue the brand into the future for as long as possible-- and since we'll keep buying, that could be a long time.

So yeah it sucks, will I buy it? Yes. Will I be dead inside? Of course.

An attitude which appears to be shared by many.

But remember. We always have the Daizenshuu EX forums to whine to!

That's why we're all here, isn't it?

I do agree with you on one point, and that's that we don't have enough information as of yet. Yes, we have a press release and a trailer and some comparison screens, but it's all very preliminary. But at the same time, I think that's precisely why the discussion is going so strongly . . . even just two weeks in, FUNimation has given us a lot to think about.

[BrollysKin]

You say that they will keep milking the series but what else would they release? The ONLY thing I can think of would be for them to release an american style dragonbox. All of the episodes in 1 or 2 sets. Sure they may go back and clean up the movies, dragonbal or GT. But this release seems to be the final edition of DBZ.

I would assume TOEI isn't going to release much/anyhting DBZ related now that they have the episodes on DVD. It took them this long to just release them on DVD.

[Li'l Lemmy]

You say that they will keep milking the series but what else would they release? The ONLY thing I can think of would be for them to release an american style dragonbox. All of the episodes in 1 or sets. Sure they may go back and clean up the movies, dragonbal or GT. But this release seems to be the final edition of DBZ.

I do think that any potential future release of DragonBall Z is far off; for the moment, these sets are going to be the ones to have. Simply releasing them all could take three years at the very least (assuming it's 4-6 months between sets, like the movies were), and after that I'd like to believe we'll have at least some time to enjoy finally having the series complete and consistent.

During that time (or perhaps even mixed in with these current releases), FUNimation might mess around with the original DragonBall, GT or perhaps both . . . and from there it really depends on where the future of DVD ends up. A lot of people say they can see the end of DVD on the horizon, but I'm not so sure; none of the new methods (Blu-ray, for example) have yet posed any serious threat to the king-of-all-media that is normal DVD, and I think it'll be while before the torch is passed to something new.

When it is passed, and if FUNimation/Navarre is still in business, I'm inclined to believe that DBZ will return. Particularly that we're being given cropped versions of the series now could motivate them to re-release the remastered footage in 4:3 later on (or possibly they'll just slap a DragonBox label on there and give us even more reason to buy) like Daemon suggested, and again the "Ultimate Uncut" title will be resurrected in some form. "Now in full-screen! See more than ever before!" or something like that. Whether those discs be HD-DVD or Blu-ray or something else entirely, I couldn't say, but I do see it happening.

I would assume TOEI isn't going to release much/anyhting DBZ related now that they have the episodes on DVD. It took them this long to just release them on DVD.

Here, I'll agree. They took such a long time in bringing DBZ to DVD-- quite some time after DVD gained a serious foothold-- that I think they're going to want to bask in that for a little while. Not to mention that they're still likely to release the other two shows in the individualized format the way they're finishing with DBZ now.

Though truthfully, no one person can tell what the future holds. But it's still fun to speculate.

[Alucard]

I have one question. Do you think the sets will have previews?

P.S. I hope they'll do it for Dragon Ball, too, and release the previews with it. It's a shame that they were never subbed.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I have one question. Do you think the sets will have previews?

Hard to say at this point. However, it was mentioned over the summer that the first set (or perhaps the episodes within said set) would have a different runtime than what was previously released. This could indicate the addition of the next-episode previews that fans have been clamoring for . . . but it could just as easily be a reference to the longer running time of packaging all these episodes into one set.

I'm not sure. I can't remember what they said exactly to the point where I could quote it for you, which would be far better. Let me see if I can't find it . . . ah, good; here we go:

We will re-announce this title with a new release date in Quarter 1 2007, and there will be other major announcements concerning the property at that time. These season sets are being enhanced and restored, and many new features are being added. Runtimes and packaging will also be different.

For now, take that as you will.

P.S. I hope they'll do it for Dragon Ball, too, and release the previews with it. It's a shame that they were never subbed.

God, do I love that show. I consider myself very lucky that FUNi went through the trouble to dub, sub and package the original DragonBall at all, because I think that it was never meant to be a certain thing-- at least not along the lines of say, GT, which was more market-friendly as an action-packed continuation of Z.

I'll be forever grateful to them for that.

Will they re-release it? Well, I'm not sure. I think we can hold out hope that they might release bigger sets like they did in Australia-- not to mention that there's always the first 13 episodes to look forward to (eventually)-- but as for actually going through the trouble of remastering and publicizing DragonBall . . . eh, we'll have to wait and see. If these DBZ sets are extremely popular, it might cause FUNimation to consider looking back to DragonBall again. But then, it might not.

If they did re-release it, I think the next-episode previews would need to be considered in order to draw in buyers who have already bought the entire series.


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