GT Trunks' power

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

How would you interpret this statement?

Episode 7
Context: Pan's reply to the Village Elder questioning the possibility of Zunama being defeated
Pan: “It's okay! On our planet, Grandpa and Trunks are the first and second strongest people there are. And, although I hate to say it, I'm number three. Right?”
Trunks: “Well...you may be giving me too much credit by saying I'm second. After all, there's Gohan-san, and Dad, not to mention Piccolo-san...”

Trunks only mentions that Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo are stronger than him. He doesn't correct Pan by saying Buu is also above himself. So would you interpret that as Trunks > Good Buu? I know Trunks didn't mention Uub, but Trunks hadn't seen Uub at that point, so it'd be impossible for Trunks to actually know how strong Uub is that point.

Also, there's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYN1oT3KVQU

Baby is able to posses Rild here, yet;

https://youtu.be/dYN1oT3KVQU?t=16m40s [apologies for the dub]

Episode 24
Time: around 15m20s
Context: Baby just possessed Trunks
Baby: "This body is outstanding! The Saiya power is quickly spreading all over!"

Episode 24
Time: 16m35s
Context: Trunks is fighting for control of his body back from Baby
Baby: (to himself) "What is this? What sort of bottomless power do you have!? I-is this the power of a Saiyan!?"

Episode 24
Time: 16m50s
Context: Trunks is still fighting for control of his body
Baby: (to himself) "I can't fight it! To think that Saiya power would be this great!"

Baby was able to posses Rild, but wasn't able to control Trunks and was amazed at Trunks' saiyan power.

Could that mean Trunks > Rild? If it did, we would get Trunks > Rild > Buuhan (or Super Buu at least, since Rild was stronger than base Gohan who was stronger than he was in Z.)

What do you think?

[Darkprince410]

I don't believe that the omission of Buu in Trunks' statement is an indication that he actually was stronger than Buu, so much as he was just naming some of the individuals that were stronger than him to show that she was being generous by saying he was the second strongest. I mean, it's fairly common in normal speech for people to, when correcting someone, to just give some examples of why the person is in error, rather than listing off every single thing proving said statement wrong.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But if he just said Buu, he would already be including everyone he knows. It just seems weird to me to exclude one single person.

I'm not saying it's solid proof, but there's really not much else to go off of besides Trunks possibly being stronger than Rild, and SS Goten (who Trunks is usually comparable to) giving Base Gohan trouble.

[dbzfan7]

He also didn't mention Oob. Oob is clearly stronger than Trunks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He also didn't mention Oob. Oob is clearly stronger than Trunks.

Trunks hadn't seen Uub until 5 years back at the 28th. How would he know Uub is stronger than him now?

And say he does know how strong Uub is, Uub is only on par with Base Goku based on the opening sequence, and SS Trunks was able to easily counter Luud's attacks that Base Goku struggled with.

So we can still have: SS Trunks > Base Goku ~ Uub > Base Trunks.

[dbzfan7]

I dunno...I never really gave a crap about GT power levels. It does whatever the fuck it wants to all the time.

[Hellspawn28]

Power scaling in GT makes no sense to me. I doubt Trunks in GT would be above Majin Buu in just 15 years when both Trunks and Goten likely stop training after Buu.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Trunks might've said he still trains at one point but I don't remember when specifically. I know Gohan trained, and I feel that would be less likely than Goten and Trunks, so who knows.

[Hitiro]

Did Rild fight for control when Bebi possessed him or something? I don't really recall much of GT. I thought this was one of those things where Rild purposely let Bebi control him. As Rild was made by Dr. Raichi and Dr. Raichi was a servant to Bebi. So by that logic Bebi could just order Rild to let him take control. Or Dr. Raichi could order Rild to let Bebi take control. So Trunks wouldn't have to be above Rild. In all honesty it wouldn't make much sense considering Gohan < Rild. If Gohan had indeed been training then it is highly unlikely that Trunks caught up and surpassed him.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the most interesting part of this dialogue is that GT makers have Piccolo stronger than Trunks, but they don't have to cite every single person that is stronger than him. That is a bit similar to when Cell cites people that were fighting back the Cell Jrs., when we can see that, besides Vegeta and Trunks, Piccolo is also able to.

Concerning Bebi, I believe he has full control over mutant machines, while he has to work in controlling a different type of power, like the Saiyan's. Imagine if Bebi was brought back and possessed Super No.17.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Did Rild fight for control when Bebi possessed him or something? I don't really recall much of GT. I thought this was one of those things where Rild purposely let Bebi control him. As Rild was made by Dr. Raichi and Dr. Raichi was a servant to Bebi. So by that logic Bebi could just order Rild to let him take control. Or Dr. Raichi could order Rild to let Bebi take control. So Trunks wouldn't have to be above Rild.

That's not really supported by anything, and I don't see why Rild would oblige, since letting Baby posses him would just kill him.

In all honesty it wouldn't make much sense considering Gohan < Rild. If Gohan had indeed been training then it is highly unlikely that Trunks caught up and surpassed him.

Gohan only fought Rild in base, so we can still have this chain: SS(2?) Trunks > Rild > Base Gohan >/>> Base Trunks.

I think the most interesting part of this dialogue is that GT makers have Piccolo stronger than Trunks, but they don't have to cite every single person that is stronger than him. That is a bit similar to when Cell cites people that were fighting back the Cell Jrs., when we can see that, besides Vegeta and Trunks, Piccolo is also able to.

Why would they leave out one single person though? Trunks only says Vegeta, Gohan, and Piccolo, and uses 'and' instead of 'ya', what reason would their be to believe Good Buu is above Trunks based off that.

[Hitiro]

Did Rild fight for control when Bebi possessed him or something? I don't really recall much of GT. I thought this was one of those things where Rild purposely let Bebi control him. As Rild was made by Dr. Raichi and Dr. Raichi was a servant to Bebi. So by that logic Bebi could just order Rild to let him take control. Or Dr. Raichi could order Rild to let Bebi take control. So Trunks wouldn't have to be above Rild.

That's not really supported by anything, and I don't see why Rild would oblige, since letting Baby posses him would just kill him.

What supports your statement then? I don't see why this opinion isn't valid one considering nothing says/shows that he attempted to fight Bebi off in the first place. I mean I can just as easily say that yours isn't supported by anything either. All we know is Bebi possessed Rild at some point. We don't know how or why. At least I recall nothing about it in the first place. It's been a long time since I've seen the GT anime.

In all honesty it wouldn't make much sense considering Gohan < Rild. If Gohan had indeed been training then it is highly unlikely that Trunks caught up and surpassed him.

Gohan only fought Rild in base, so we can still have this chain: SS(2?) Trunks > Rild > Base Gohan >/>> Base Trunks.

Going by this argument Gohan should have been completely destroyed in base. Yet he wasn't, sure Rild had the upper hand but if Rild was 50(ish) times stronger than base Gohan a simple tap would have been all he would have needed to kill Gohan. Like Gohan did against the Cell Jr's.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What supports your statement then? I don't see why this opinion isn't valid one considering nothing says/shows that he attempted to fight Bebi off in the first place. I mean I can just as easily say that yours isn't supported by anything either. All we know is Bebi possessed Rild at some point. We don't know how or why. At least I recall nothing about it in the first place. It's been a long time since I've seen the GT anime.

Erm, it's a logical deduction. Why would Rild let himself be possessed and die if he can resist? That's doesn't make sense, at all.

Going by this argument Gohan should have been completely destroyed in base. Yet he wasn't, sure Rild had the upper hand but if Rild was 50(ish) times stronger than base Gohan a simple tap would have been all he would have needed to kill Gohan. Like Gohan did against the Cell Jr's.

Where are you getting Rild being 50x stronger than Gohan from??

The chain I was saying was: SS Gohan > SS(2?) Trunks > Rild >~ Base Gohan >/>> Base Trunks

Also, Rild's statement when Goku transforms implies the boost is smaller than 50x.

[Hitiro]

Erm, it's a logical deduction. Why would Rild let himself be possessed and die if he can resist? That's doesn't make sense, at all.

And it's not logical that he would let the master of his master possess him because he was ordered to? We don't even know if Rild knew he would die upon letting Bebi possess him. There is dialogue from one of the characters to Rild saying he's being used by them but he just refuses to believe it. So he is loyal to a fault.

Where are you getting Rild being 50x stronger than Gohan from??

The chain I was saying was: SS Gohan > SS(2?) Trunks > Rild >~ Base Gohan >/>> Base Trunks

To be honest this was a bad call on my part. I had it in my head that Rild put up a fight against SSJ Goku but Rild was in his first form when he was fighting Gohan. But where are you putting Base Gohan? Because if Rild was putting up a fight against Base Goku in his first form and Base Goku is at least as strong as his SSJ3 EoZ-self. Gohan would have had to train to ridiculously hard to get from below Freeza to any level of SSJ. The only reason Goku could have possibly done it, without the BoG stuff of course, is because sparring with Oob allowed him to get to that level. As Akira Toriyama said in his statement when Goku was fighting Beerus.

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Also, Rild's statement when Goku transforms implies the boost is smaller than 50x.

Rild's statement just says Goku hasn't even been using half of his power. It doesn't imply that SSJ is a smaller boost. In fact, himself at SSJ would only be 1/8th of his power if we're including transformations. Which Rild was actually using transformations. Even if you believe that the SSJ transformations offer a smaller boost. Do you really think that SSJ is 50% of Goku's real power and SSJ3 is 100% of his real power? SSJ3 seems pretty useless if it only gives 2x the boost of SSJ. Though if SSJ is 50% of Goku's real power then Base Goku could still be 1% meaning that it would be a 50x boost, lol.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

And it's not logical that he would let the master of his master possess him because he was ordered to? We don't even know if Rild knew he would die upon letting Bebi possess him. There is dialogue from one of the characters to Rild saying he's being used by them but he just refuses to believe it. So he is loyal to a fault.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. The way I see it Toei is simple, and them showing Trunks resisting someone who possessed Rild is just to show how much stronger the trio get during their battles in space. After all, they do have Base Goku (M2) > SS Goku (Early GT).

I also think the Super Buu/Gohan-Buu tier is good for Trunks since Goten, who Trunks is usually comparable to, was able to give base Gohan trouble, meaning Goten as a Super Saiyan could be in the Super Buu or approaching Gotenks-Buu tier.

To be honest this was a bad call on my part. I had it in my head that Rild put up a fight against SSJ Goku but Rild was in his first form when he was fighting Gohan. But where are you putting Base Gohan? Because if Rild was putting up a fight against Base Goku in his first form and Base Goku is at least as strong as his SSJ3 EoZ-self. Gohan would have had to train to ridiculously hard to get from below Freeza to any level of SSJ. The only reason Goku could have possibly done it, without the BoG stuff of course, is because sparring with Oob allowed him to get to that level.

Toei doesn't treat Ultimate as a form for Gohan. His base state still has his Ultimate traits, so I have Ultimate Gohan < Buutenks < Buuhan = Base Gohan < SS Gohan < SS2 Gohan.

Rild's statement just says Goku hasn't even been using half of his power. It doesn't imply that SSJ is a smaller boost. In fact, himself at SSJ would only be 1/8th of his power if we're including transformations. Which Rild was actually using transformations. Even if you believe that the SSJ transformations offer a smaller boost. Do you really think that SSJ is 50% of Goku's real power and SSJ3 is 100% of his real power? SSJ3 seems pretty useless if it only gives 2x the boost of SSJ. Though if SSJ is 50% of Goku's real power then Base Goku could still be 1% meaning that it would be a 50x boost, lol.

Episode 19
Time: Roughly 19m40s
Context: Rild senses Goku's ki after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
Rild: “Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power.”

When he says Goku hasn't been putting out all of his power, he just means SS Goku > Base Goku.

The way I see it is: 1/3rd > less than half > 1/2 (I might've messed up the direction of the arrows, I have a hard time describing this.)

Just given that, and things like Goku surpassing his Super Saiyan form in base, it just seems like Toei doesn't think of it as a huge boost.

[Hitiro]

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. The way I see it Toei is simple, and them showing Trunks resisting someone who possessed Rild is just to show how much stronger the trio get during their battles in space. After all, they do have Base Goku (M2) > SS Goku (Early GT).

I also think the Super Buu/Gohan-Buu tier is good for Trunks since Goten, who Trunks is usually comparable to, was able to give base Gohan trouble, meaning Goten as a Super Saiyan could be in the Super Buu or approaching Gotenks-Buu tier.

I think it is wishful thinking that Goten and Trunks happened to reach Evil Boo level's of power through training. When Goku and Vegeta were struggling just to catch up with SSJ2 Gohan(Cell Games) for 7 years. The new material still suggests that they were are their limits with the training they've done. The only effect way for the Saiyan's to increase their strength further seems to be for them to spar with powerful beings like Whis. Which is why it makes sense for GT Goku to be at his "SSJ3 EoZ" level due to fighting with Oob, a character practically his level as a SSJ3, for 5 years.

Do you really think Goten and Trunks managed to get like 16 times stronger(Possibly more) during this time?

Toei doesn't treat Ultimate as a form for Gohan. His base state still has his Ultimate traits, so I have Ultimate Gohan < Buutenks < Buuhan = Base Gohan < SS Gohan < SS2 Gohan.

But then they don't have him transform against an opponent he clearly should transform against with SSJ? Honestly, Toei don't seem to know what they are doing with their powerscaling or their transformations during GT. Because if Gohan was a competent warrior there is no reason for him to not transform unless he is in some psuedo-transformed state like he is in the Boo Arc when he fights Evil Boo.

Episode 19
Time: Roughly 19m40s
Context: Rild senses Goku's ki after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
Rild: “Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power.”

When he says Goku hasn't been putting out all of his power, he just means SS Goku > Base Goku.

The way I see it is: 1/3rd > less than half > 1/2 (I might've messed up the direction of the arrows, I have a hard time describing this.)

Just given that, and things like Goku surpassing his Super Saiyan form in base, it just seems like Toei doesn't think of it as a huge boost.

But he doesn't say anything about Goku not putting out all of his power. Just half. And he pretty much says up till now you haven't been putting out half of your power. So this could easily mean that SSJ is 50% or more of his power. Whether this is on a scale of him using 1% and then using 50% as a SSJ whereas SSJ3 would be 100% is entirely possible. Or it could have just been on about Goku not putting out more than 50% in his base form. There are any number of ways to look at this.

Really, if we consider the amount of power he was using before he transformed and after then we can fluctuate how much of a boost he got:

Base Goku: 1%
SSJ Goku: 50%
Boost: 50x

Base Goku: 25%
SSJ Goku: 50%
Boost: 2x

Base Goku: 25%
SSJ Goku: 75%
Boost: 3x

Base Goku: 10%
SSJ Goku: 100%
Boost: 10x

We simply can't gauge the amount of boost the SSJ form gave him unless we know how much he was outputting before the transformation and after the transformation. All we know is he was using less than half before he transformed and after he transformed he was using at least a half or more.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I think it is wishful thinking that Goten and Trunks happened to reach Evil Boo level's of power through training. When Goku and Vegeta were struggling just to catch up with SSJ2 Gohan(Cell Games) for 7 years. The new material still suggests that they were are their limits with the training they've done. The only effect way for the Saiyan's to increase their strength further seems to be for them to spar with powerful beings like Whis. Which is why it makes sense for GT Goku to be at his "SSJ3 EoZ" level due to fighting with Oob, a character practically his level as a SSJ3, for 5 years.

Do you really think Goten and Trunks managed to get like 16 times stronger(Possibly more) during this time?

I mean, it's Toei... Goku gets multiple times stronger just from battling random space people. Toei just makes people as strong as they want to. And also, I mean, Goten and Trunks have a lot of potential. Think about Gohan's monstrous RoSaT gains in just 1 year, and Goten and Trunks at 6 and 7 are pretty much on par with Gohan, so they would have a lot of potential.

But then they don't have him transform against an opponent he clearly should transform against with SSJ? Honestly, Toei don't seem to know what they are doing with their powerscaling or their transformations during GT. Because if Gohan was a competent warrior there is no reason for him to not transform unless he is in some psuedo-transformed state like he is in the Boo Arc when he fights Evil Boo.

It's pretty much the same as Gohan starting his fight with Broly in base in Movie 10, or the Saiyans starting in Base in Movie 7 against the Androids, or the same as Goku going to fight Janemba in base after calling him the greatest Ki he's ever felt. Toei drags out the fights, Gohan just going SS and one-shotting Rild wouldn't be entertaining.

Also, when Goten-Baby is fighting Gohan, Gohan has his base/Ultimate traits, but still transforms into SS to stop Goten's attempted self-destruct, so we do know his SS form is stronger than his Ultimate form.

We simply can't gauge the amount of boost the SSJ form gave him unless we know how much he was outputting before the transformation and after the transformation. All we know is he was using less than half before he transformed and after he transformed he was using at least a half or more.

Well, he powered up to his full base power fighting the SCMS, and there's no reason to believe he's suppressed as a Super Saiyan, since he's showing Rild his true power. So he should be at full power base before transforming and full power SS after transforming.

Also, like previously mentioned, things like Base Goku (M2) > SS Goku (Early GT) just don't imply a huge boost, otherwise we'd have to accept Goku getting hundreds of times stronger in space instead of like 20x stronger or so.

[Neon Z]

He also didn't mention Oob. Oob is clearly stronger than Trunks.

Trunks hadn't seen Uub until 5 years back at the 28th. How would he know Uub is stronger than him now?

And say he does know how strong Uub is, Uub is only on par with Base Goku based on the opening sequence, and SS Trunks was able to easily counter Luud's attacks that Base Goku struggled with.

So we can still have: SS Trunks > Base Goku ~ Uub > Base Trunks.

You're equaling Adult Goku with kid Goku. Although in the beginning it's stated that his power didn't change, the Baby battle indicates otherwise. Uub did better against Baby than SSJ3 Kid Goku, actually getting some hits in even before fusing with Mr.Buu.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He also didn't mention Oob. Oob is clearly stronger than Trunks.

Trunks hadn't seen Uub until 5 years back at the 28th. How would he know Uub is stronger than him now?

And say he does know how strong Uub is, Uub is only on par with Base Goku based on the opening sequence, and SS Trunks was able to easily counter Luud's attacks that Base Goku struggled with.

So we can still have: SS Trunks > Base Goku ~ Uub > Base Trunks.

You're equaling Adult Goku with kid Goku. Although in the beginning it's stated that his power didn't change, the Baby battle indicates otherwise. Uub did better against Baby than SSJ3 Kid Goku, actually getting some hits in even before fusing with Mr.Buu.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9156833&t=8535583

[Hitiro]

I mean, it's Toei... Goku gets multiple times stronger just from battling random space people. Toei just makes people as strong as they want to. And also, I mean, Goten and Trunks have a lot of potential. Think about Gohan's monstrous RoSaT gains in just 1 year, and Goten and Trunks at 6 and 7 are pretty much on par with Gohan, so they would have a lot of potential.

If you follow in-universe information there isn't a way for them to get that strong really. And I wouldn't drag Gohan into the same bracket as Goten and Trunks. He is clearly a different type of hybrid compared to his brother and Trunks. Because Gohan was stronger than his father from the start. Look at Goten and Trunks. Do we see them busting out strength above their parents without fusion? Gohan is pretty much an anomaly. As for Goten and Trunks being on par with Gohan. You realise that both of them were sparring with each other. So yes, they are going to receive huge gains to this point. Gohan had also lost a chunk of strength. If he was at what his power was at the Cell Games then Gohan would obviously be quite a bit above Goten and Trunks.

It's pretty much the same as Gohan starting his fight with Broly in base in Movie 10, or the Saiyans starting in Base in Movie 7 against the Androids, or the same as Goku going to fight Janemba in base after calling him the greatest Ki he's ever felt. Toei drags out the fights, Gohan just going SS and one-shotting Rild wouldn't be entertaining.

Also, when Goten-Baby is fighting Gohan, Gohan has his base/Ultimate traits, but still transforms into SS to stop Goten's attempted self-destruct, so we do know his SS form is stronger than his Ultimate form.

Honestly we don't know if SSJ is stronger than his "Ultimate" form. Because we have conflicting arguments against that. If he was more powerful in his SSJ form then he should have used it against Rild. But then he did use it against Goten. So we have one feat showing that his SSJ form is stronger than his "Ultimate" form. And then we have another feat counteracting that because he never used it. So we can't say that either of them are more likely. Because they both have conflicting points.

Well, he powered up to his full base power fighting the SCMS, and there's no reason to believe he's suppressed as a Super Saiyan, since he's showing Rild his true power. So he should be at full power base before transforming and full power SS after transforming.

Also, like previously mentioned, things like Base Goku (M2) > SS Goku (Early GT) just don't imply a huge boost, otherwise we'd have to accept Goku getting hundreds of times stronger in space instead of like 20x stronger or so.

Is there proof he powered up to his full base power fighting the SCMS? It has been a while since I've watched the anime. I don't recall them actually saying he is outputting his base full power when fighting them anyway.

And what proves that Base Goku (M2) is above SSJ Goku (Early GT)?