What are all the canonical conflicts in GT?

[Darkprince410]

Neither Goten or Trunks trained, yet Trunks was strong enough to one-shot Yakon, which doesn't seem likely in the Buu saga since Yakon was giving Goku trouble. So it's clear Toei powered them up for no reason. Not to mention Goten was being powered up by Baby when he was giving Gohan trouble.

Yakon wasn't giving Goku any real issue whatsoever, and according to Gohan, even in the realm of darkness, he and a drained Goku would be able to take out Yakon while in their base forms.

And that still doesn't change that Piccolo, who wasn't even Ssj2 tier after the span of seven years, suddenly went from below Ssj2 tier to something that a Bebi-possessed Ssj Gohan would have considered a legitimate test of his new strength. So if you believe that Gohan was still maintaining his Rou Kaioushin power-up, then you'd have to accept that Piccolo had suddenly jumped from below Ssj2 to at least in the range of post power-up Gohan, which is an excessively unrealistic increase.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Neither Goten or Trunks trained, yet Trunks was strong enough to one-shot Yakon, which doesn't seem likely in the Buu saga since Yakon was giving Goku trouble. So it's clear Toei powered them up for no reason. Not to mention Goten was being powered up by Baby when he was giving Gohan trouble.

Yakon wasn't giving Goku any real issue whatsoever, and according to Gohan, even in the realm of darkness, he and a drained Goku would be able to take out Yakon while in their base forms.

And that still doesn't change that Piccolo, who wasn't even Ssj2 tier after the span of seven years, suddenly went from below Ssj2 tier to something that a Bebi-possessed Ssj Gohan would have considered a legitimate test of his new strength. So if you believe that Gohan was still maintaining his Rou Kaioushin power-up, then you'd have to accept that Piccolo had suddenly jumped from below Ssj2 to at least in the range of post power-up Gohan, which is an excessively unrealistic increase.

If Yakon was much weaker than Goku (to the point where Goku could one-shot him), I don't see a reason for Gohan to have to step in.

You're trying to prove Gohan weaker since Piccolo survived a Kamehameha from him, and since he didn't make great training gains before he just can't be that strong.

Training gains are not static, they are plot dependent. All Piccolo surviving is, is just proof of Piccolo's increase, not Gohan's decrease.

Fact is, Gohan was stated not to have neglected his training, and still has his Ultimate traits. Saying he got weaker is based on nothing.

[Darkprince410]

If Yakon was much weaker than Goku (to the point where Goku could one-shot him), I don't see a reason for Gohan to have to step in.

He was going to step in because Goku's ki had been drained some from Yakon eating his light. Goku was seemingly confident about his ability to defeat Yakon normally, and only transformed to show he could brighten up the area, but then Yakon drained off his light and his ki. Rather than him transforming again and risking more energy being absorbed, Gohan said he'd step in with his dad so that they could beat him without either transforming. So while Goku may not be able to one shot him, the gap between their power isn't that substantial by any means, so Trunks wouldn't have to be much stronger than base Goku in the Buu Saga to be able to one shot Yakon.

You're trying to prove Gohan weaker since Piccolo survived a Kamehameha from him, and since he didn't make great training gains before he just can't be that strong.

Not just that, but the fact that a Bebi-Possessed Gohan would even consider him a worthwhile opponent to test his strength on. You say there's nothing indicating that Gohan lost his Rou Kaioushin power-up, but there's even less indicating that Piccolo suddenly shot up to high-tier Buu Saga levels of power just to be a punching bag. Other than allowing him to survive the Kamehameha (if Gohan were as strong as you believed), his strength would be basically worthless, given that he does essentially nothing outside of that. Nothing was said to indicate that he even had been training in any way to make himself stronger, and given that in seven years time, he didn't even reach Ssj2 levels, it is inconceivable that in an additional 15 years, he'd train to seriously make himself stronger and reach levels like you're indicating.

This is Toei after all who made this, who is notorious for making Goku look better, and them weakening Gohan without any explanation is hardly outside their modus operendi.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He was going to step in because Goku's ki had been drained some from Yakon eating his light. Goku was seemingly confident about his ability to defeat Yakon normally, and only transformed to show he could brighten up the area, but then Yakon drained off his light and his ki. Rather than him transforming again and risking more energy being absorbed, Gohan said he'd step in with his dad so that they could beat him without either transforming. So while Goku may not be able to one shot him, the gap between their power isn't that substantial by any means, so Trunks wouldn't have to be much stronger than base Goku in the Buu Saga to be able to one shot Yakon.

I'm not arguing about specific gaps, I'm just saying is Yakon was at least in Goku's league, and Goku was well above Kid Trunks (Goku >>> pre-Majin Vegeta >>> Teen Gohan ['trash'] >~ Kid Trunks), and in GT Trunks is at a level where he can one-shot Yakon with a generic blast. So despite not training, he's powered up. That's my main point.

Not just that, but the fact that a Bebi-Possessed Gohan would even consider him a worthwhile opponent to test his strength on. You say there's nothing indicating that Gohan lost his Rou Kaioushin power-up, but there's even less indicating that Piccolo suddenly shot up to high-tier Buu Saga levels of power just to be a punching bag. Other than allowing him to survive the Kamehameha (if Gohan were as strong as you believed), his strength would be basically worthless, given that he does essentially nothing outside of that. Nothing was said to indicate that he even had been training in any way to make himself stronger, and given that in seven years time, he didn't even reach Ssj2 levels, it is inconceivable that in an additional 15 years, he'd train to seriously make himself stronger and reach levels like you're indicating.

Like I said, training gains aren't static. It took Goku 22 years to go from 5 to 416, 11 months to go from 416 to 8,000+, and 1 week to get to 90,000.

His strenght wasn't completely worthless, he was confident and open to spending the rest of his days in Hell with past villains (Cell, Freeza, Rild, and HF17 - all stronger than Buu).

This is Toei after all who made this, who is notorious for making Goku look better, and them weakening Gohan without any explanation is hardly outside their modus operendi.

All that would require is making Goku stronger, not making everyone weaker. In fact, making Goku outperform stronger characters makes him look better than making him out perform weak characters.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not arguing about specific gaps, I'm just saying is Yakon was at least in Goku's league, and Goku was well above Kid Trunks (Goku >>> pre-Majin Vegeta >>> Teen Gohan ['trash'] >~ Kid Trunks), and in GT Trunks is at a level where he can one-shot Yakon with a generic blast. So despite not training, he's powered up. That's my main point.

Except the boys trained enough in the Room of Spirit and Time to potentially make Gotenks over 50x stronger than he was before, as Piccolo, after the boys fused inside the RoSaT, indicated he thought the boys stood a chance with the new power he was sensing from them, when before he indicated that Ssj Gotenks stood no chance against Evil Buu. That increase could easily translate to the boys being stronger than their dads, and thus he gained no strength whatsoever between Z and GT.

Like I said, training gains aren't static. It took Goku 22 years to go from 5 to 416, 11 months to go from 416 to 8,000+, and 1 week to get to 90,000.

Those particular later power-ups came from near-death power-ups and higher than Earth level's of gravity, so the increases were at least partially justified.

With Piccolo though, there's none of that, nor does he even have a training partner, nor is there even a single word describing or suggesting that he had trained at all, much less as intensely as you're indicating. At least with all the other increases ever mentioned or shown in the franchise, some mention of training or another source of the power-up is established. With Piccolo, in this instance (if he did get as strong as you're saying), there is nothing whatsoever, so I can't just accept some completely unexplained, off screen power-up

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Except the boys trained enough in the Room of Spirit and Time to potentially make Gotenks over 50x stronger than he was before, as Piccolo, after the boys fused inside the RoSaT, indicated he thought the boys stood a chance with the new power he was sensing from them, when before he indicated that Ssj Gotenks stood no chance against Evil Buu. That increase could easily translate to the boys being stronger than their dads, and thus he gained no strength whatsoever between Z and GT.

You're mixing the scene up. Piccolo doesn't notice a huge power up in the boys, he's still nervous until they fuse. We know the adults are still stronger than the boys post-RoSaT, since Goku thinks a metamoran fusion of him/Vegeta can beat Buu no problem, while Gotenks somewhat struggled with Buu.

Those particular later power-ups came from near-death power-ups and higher than Earth level's of gravity, so the increases were at least partially justified.

With Piccolo though, there's none of that, nor does he even have a training partner, nor is there even a single word describing or suggesting that he had trained at all, much less as intensely as you're indicating. At least with all the other increases ever mentioned or shown in the franchise, some mention of training or another source of the power-up is established. With Piccolo, in this instance (if he did get as strong as you're saying), there is nothing whatsoever, so I can't just accept some completely unexplained, off screen power-up

All it shows are that training gains are centered around plot. You're expecting logic from Toei. Piccolo surviving the Kamehameha, and being fine guarding Hell is what establishes his power up.

I'm really not seeing any proof Gohan got weaker, he continued training, and still has his Ultimate traits. Unless you can prove Piccolo is that weak, and there's nothing establishing Gohan as weaker.

[Tectorman]

Okay, exactly what are these Ultimate traits that he's supposed to have kept? Is it the eyes (that fact that they're halfway delineated non-Ultimate and fully delineated while Ultimate)? Was Gohan depicted with Ultimate eyes during the EoZ in the anime?

Because I checked the manga. After Goku defeats Kid Buu, they go back to the Lookout and Toriyama shows each character one last time before the timeskip. After the timeskip, Gohan is, without fail, consistently shown wearing glasses. Either his head is viewed from the back or the side (meaning you can't see whether his eyes are Ultimate or not) or his face is shown from the front (and his glasses obscure his eyes, making it still impossible to determine whether Gohan still has his Ultimate eyes).

There is never an image of Gohan EoZ that confirms he's still Ultimate. Does the anime deviate from this (and then GT just picked up on it)?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yes, it is the eyes.

Base Gohan (pre-Ultimate):

Spoiler:

Ultimate Gohan:

Spoiler:

Base Gohan (GT):

Spoiler:

It's also somewhat (to me at least) the hair.

[Dyno]

Dragon Ball GT sometimes remembers to put his bang on him, and sometimes not... It bugs the hell outta me that people still insist on saying GT is a reliable source.

[Darkprince410]

Except the boys trained enough in the Room of Spirit and Time to potentially make Gotenks over 50x stronger than he was before, as Piccolo, after the boys fused inside the RoSaT, indicated he thought the boys stood a chance with the new power he was sensing from them, when before he indicated that Ssj Gotenks stood no chance against Evil Buu. That increase could easily translate to the boys being stronger than their dads, and thus he gained no strength whatsoever between Z and GT.

You're mixing the scene up. Piccolo doesn't notice a huge power up in the boys, he's still nervous until they fuse. We know the adults are still stronger than the boys post-RoSaT, since Goku thinks a metamoran fusion of him/Vegeta can beat Buu no problem, while Gotenks somewhat struggled with Buu.

No, I'm not, because for Gotenks to get that strong, Goten and Trunks would proportionally need to have grown that strong. The strength of the fusion is based on the strength of the individuals fusing, so for Gotenks to go from not standing a chance in his Ssj form to Piccolo thinking he could get somewhere with his base form indicates a huge power up for Gotenks, which in turn means a substantial power up for the boys.

As for a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, Goku never indicates that it'd be "no problem", just that there's no way they could beat Buu on their own, and would need fusion in some form to be able to.

I'm really not seeing any proof Gohan got weaker, he continued training, and still has his Ultimate traits. Unless you can prove Piccolo is that weak, and there's nothing establishing Gohan as weaker.

Is there actually a line or something indicating that he continued training? Because I certainly don't remember it. The end of Z points to him having devoted himself to scholarly activities, which no real indication of continued training. Besides, Toei's been inconsistent with how strong they depict Rou Kaioushin power-up Gohan anyway (if he does have that capacity in GT). Look at his performance in movie 13, where he fares worse against Hildegarn than Ssj3 Gotenks and even Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta, when he should still be stronger than all of them.

So if Toei seemingly made Gohan weaker in movie 13 for no apparent reason other than to put Goku all the more in the spotlight, why is the same not possible for GT?

[Hitiro]

Is there actually a line or something indicating that he continued training? Because I certainly don't remember it. The end of Z points to him having devoted himself to scholarly activities, which no real indication of continued training. Besides, Toei's been inconsistent with how strong they depict Rou Kaioushin power-up Gohan anyway (if he does have that capacity in GT). Look at his performance in movie 13, where he fares worse against Hildegarn than Ssj3 Gotenks and even Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta, when he should still be stronger than all of them.

It's the GT perfect files that says he kept training.

[Dyno]

Is there actually a line or something indicating that he continued training? Because I certainly don't remember it. The end of Z points to him having devoted himself to scholarly activities, which no real indication of continued training.

No, actually there is for otherwise. Something pointing to the fact he didn't continue his training, and it is right here. Toriyama's very own words. Not only end of Z points that, as you can see here in this interview, Son Gohan didn't train at all in the gap of ten years.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No, I'm not, because for Gotenks to get that strong, Goten and Trunks would proportionally need to have grown that strong. The strength of the fusion is based on the strength of the individuals fusing, so for Gotenks to go from not standing a chance in his Ssj form to Piccolo thinking he could get somewhere with his base form indicates a huge power up for Gotenks, which in turn means a substantial power up for the boys.

As for a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, Goku never indicates that it'd be "no problem", just that there's no way they could beat Buu on their own, and would need fusion in some form to be able to.

Go re-read the scene. Goku is clearly confident in using the metamoran technique to beat Buu. If Goku was far weaker than his kid, then naturally their fusion would be a lot weaker and Goku wouldn't be confident.

Is there actually a line or something indicating that he continued training? Because I certainly don't remember it. The end of Z points to him having devoted himself to scholarly activities, which no real indication of continued training. Besides, Toei's been inconsistent with how strong they depict Rou Kaioushin power-up Gohan anyway (if he does have that capacity in GT). Look at his performance in movie 13, where he fares worse against Hildegarn than Ssj3 Gotenks and even Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta, when he should still be stronger than all of them.

The Perfect Files say he trained. Why people are so insistent on that making him weaker, I don't know.

Toei just haxed Goku and Vegeta in M13.

Is there actually a line or something indicating that he continued training? Because I certainly don't remember it. The end of Z points to him having devoted himself to scholarly activities, which no real indication of continued training.

No, actually there is for otherwise. Something pointing to the fact he didn't continue his training, and it is right here. Toriyama's very own words. Not only end of Z points that, as you can see here in this interview, Son Gohan didn't train at all in the gap of ten years.

Actually, yes there is.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14812

Command + F

Type 'Son Gohan'

[Dyno]

Actually, yes there is.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14812

Command + F

Type 'Son Gohan'

"Dragon Ball GT: Perfect Files" versus "Toriyama's words"? I'll pick Toriyama's words and what was shown in the manga.

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually, yes there is.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14812

Command + F

Type 'Son Gohan'

"Dragon Ball GT: Perfect Files" versus "Toriyama's words"? I'll pick Toriyama's words and what was shown in the manga.

Why does what Toriyama has to say matter when concerning GT?

[Dyno]

Why does what Toriyama has to say matter when concerning GT?

Each and every interview of Toriyama matter to me, mainly the ones that add something to the Dragon Ball franchise and the ones that could possibly end a dicussion (unfortunately even Toriyama's words aren't enough to end a GT discussion).

[Kamiccolo9]

Why does what Toriyama has to say matter when concerning GT?

Each and every interview of Toriyama matter to me, mainly the ones that add something to the Dragon Ball franchise and the ones that could possibly end a dicussion (unfortunately even Toriyama's words aren't enough to end a GT discussion).

That's all well and good, but Toriyama had little to nothing to do with character development in GT.

And even concerning the manga, there's a large school of literary thought that says that his interviews don't matter after the fact anyway.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

@Dyno

We're discussing Dragon Ball GT, made by Toei. In their continuity (GT) Gohan trained. I don't see why Toriyama would override that, considering he didn't write GT.

[Dyno]

Fair enough. But given the context and the title "canonical", I thought adding that Toriyama's piece of information would be valid, but since you're solely talking about GT, ignore me.

[Hitiro]

@Dyno

We're discussing Dragon Ball GT, made by Toei. In their continuity (GT) Gohan trained. I don't see why Toriyama would override that, considering he didn't write GT.

In their continuity Gohan may have trained after the 10 year gap. So he trained for 5 years. But you can't modify the original story which already has him not training in the 10 year gap to have him with 15 years worth of training. Their continuity is supposed to be a continuation of DBZ after all. So if it is a continuation then we have to accept elements in DBZ too. If we're going to pretend Toei can re-write DBZ whenever they want then none of the plot holes would be plot holes because in their continuity it doesn't work that way.