Is Super Saiyan 2 really only twice as strong?

[Bullza]

I know it's stated in the Daizenshuu and people swear by it but this has always been something that's raised an eyebrow for me.

Gohan was already weaker than Cell when they started fighting. Later on Cell powers up to his full power. Then he has a zenkai and powers up significantly again.

After Cell injures his arm, Gohan says that he's lost half his chi which should in effect put him back down to ordinary Super Saiyan level...yet he's now able to beat a much more powerful version of Cell while injured.

How could it only increase his power two fold?

Goku's whole plan in defeating Cell was in the hopes his son would snap and so double his power when he could have just gone back in the time chamber and easily obtained that power after a years training and done the job himself.

But Goku made it sound like Gohan was going to get some unobtainable vast amount of power that only he could achieve which is why they didn't.

Super Saiyan 2 should multiply their power four fold and Super Saiyan 3 two fold. That'd make more sense.

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan was never weaker than Cell, at any stage. At worst, he was equal to Cell. Gohan was just holding back the first time round they fought. If he went all out as a FPSSJ from the get go, he would most most likely beaten Cell. Becoming a SSJ2, just the made the job much more easier for him.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Super Saiyan 2's power increase is from the Super Exciting Guides.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the multiplier. The Daizenshu does say that Gohan's power didn't change from the Cell Games to the Buu Arc, his skills just became rusty and he can no longer tap into his rage. So if the rage boost and the Super Saiyan 2 boost are two different things, then both can double his power (for a total of 4x or whatever). That works out just fine with the way I interpret all the stuff everything states on the matter: Gohan can still have half his ki and be strong enough to overwhelm Cell, it gives Goku and Vegeta a wider gap to work towards and reach within 7 years, it leaves Gohan "weaker" than his pure breed peers and yet also allows for Vegeta's "who knows what will happen if he gets angry" statement, etc.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Not in my mind. I view it as 3x or 4x. Nothing to really back that other than personal preference, and I just see Gohan's transformation at the CG as more tremendous than a measly 2x increase.

[fadeddreams5]

Given Gohan's strength at the time, which exceeded everyone else's except Cell's, 2x power is a very, very big deal. Think about it, a human with a PL of 50 will NEVER beat someone with a PL of 100--at least not single-handedly. Gohan's PL was likely in the 9 digits before it doubled.

As mentioned, as a MSSJ, he was already very close in power to Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell's strength is comparable to his as a SSJ2. Without outside help, he would have lost; the only reason he hung in there was because of his will and resolve, which Goku slowly recuperated. With both arms, I think Gohan would only have a slight advantage, but would be able to best Cell in the beam struggle on his own.

As for him stating that he lost half his ki, I honestly think that's a hyperbole. The kid's spirit was broken after watching his father die, and he was subconsciously convincing himself that there was no hope. If it wasn't an exaggeration, then I suppose you can assume he was referring to his ki output (kamehameha), which would need both arms to be at maximum power. In terms of speed and strength, he most probably didn't become that much weaker.

[Bullza]

The additional rage boost to the Super Saiyan 2 boost is an interesting one. We saw in Battle of Gods what happened to Vegeta when he snapped.

I suppose Gohan could have had a bigger boost than the usual two fold increase that he would have at any other time.

Though I thought the Super Saiyan 2 was the result of his rage boost.

And perhaps as Lord Beerus said Gohan was stronger than I had always considered him to be which was not significantly more than Goku.

[Kaboom]

There's two big easy ways that the 2x boost for Super Saiyan can work just hunky-dory. The most popular way, in my experience, is to assume Gohan during the Cell Games was reaping some extra "rage power" on top of Super Saiyan 2, as others have already mentioned.

The other, and what I prefer, is that even though Gohan at Super Saiyan seemed weak, it's only because he barely fought back. But in fact, he's actually MUCH stronger than Goku, and even stronger than the power Cell was using against them both. As evident from the impressive durability he showed, and flat-out knocking Cell on his ass the literal one time he did anything to attack. Which would mean that after going Super Saiyan 2 he had a huge lead on Cell, enough that Cell still wouldn't have caught up even after powering up twice.

Let me demonstrate with some NUMBERS.

SS Goku: 25
SS Gohan: 35
--- SS2: 70

Cell (Vs Goku/Gohan): 30
--- Full Power: 45
--- Power-Bloated: 60
--- "Super Perfect": 70

Since the boosts from Super Saiyan forms are likely somewhat fluid, he could even still be a little bit stronger on top of this from his anger. Who knows?


As for Gohan being injured and losing half his power... he got it back.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Though I thought the Super Saiyan 2 was the result of his rage boost.

His rage boost has always been described as his hidden potential being unleashed. In the Buu Arc, even though he's no longer capable of tapping into that rage (as he tells Goku after Vegeta's shenanigans), he's still shown to be capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan 2 while demonstrating his forms for Kibito. One could argue that if Super Saiyan 2 was the result of his rage, he arguably might not have anymore hidden potential to tap into, yet Elder Kaioshin says he has a ton of it.

This is another thing that fits IMO. The Elder Kaioshin's potential unlock bringing him above his father at Super Saiyan 3 could workout as such that what was unlocked for Gohan would be the combination of his potential SS3 power, his rage boost, and that little bit of extra "umph" via the magic. (And I guess factor in a little bit of his Z Sword training, though I don't see how that could honestly increase his power by any significant amount.)

As for Gohan being injured and losing half his power... he got it back.

I'm sure Gohan was at least equal with Cell prior to their transformations, but this is why I prefer the rage boost explanation. It just feels better than "he just got it back". Have Goku's death and Cell's attack shake Gohan's confidence, damaging him to half power and knocking him out of his rage boost. Then with Goku's speech about not feeling bad about his death and not worrying about holding back because they can fix any damage, he taps back into the rage and levels the playing field. (With Vegeta tipping the scales.)

[90sDBZ]

Gohan was never weaker than Cell, at any stage. At worst, he was equal to Cell. Gohan was just holding back the first time round they fought. If he went all out as a FPSSJ from the get go, he would most most likely beaten Cell. Becoming a SSJ2, just the made the job much more easier for him.

I don't buy that. He was completely helpless when Cell was squeezing him, and Cell was still suppressed at that time. Even if he had been holding back that much up until that point there's no way he wouldn't have instinctively broken away from Cell's grip at that point if he had the power. And when his friends were on the verge of being killed he would have done something about it sooner if he could have.

Quite frankly I don't think Goku would have survived training with Gohan if he was already that strong.

[Tectorman]

I totally buy the SSJ2 increase being only a x2 multiplier, and I don't think it's actually necessary to throw a rage boost on top of it, either.

He starts out stronger than Cell, but with the annoying tendency to hold himself back. And I don't think it's just a preference to not fight; I think he was actually more scared of what he himself would do if he gave in to his rage than anything Cell would do (and considering that he ended up indirectly costing his own father his life, I don't think he was too off the mark in having reason to doubt himself).

SSJ Gohan (suppressed): 1
Cell: 1.1
SSJ Gohan (full; never actually used): 1.3

Then, Cell provokes SSJ2. Gohan stops holding back, and transforms on top of it. Even Cell powering up to full doesn't help.

SSJ2 Gohan: 2.6
Cell: 1.2

Then, Cell self-destructs and we lose Goku. Then Cell comes back. At this point in the series, Gohan is still dependent on his emotions. And he has risked the Earth, lost his father, and it's all for nothing. So I think this series of bad judgments knocked him down several pegs.

SSJ2 Gohan (lack of confidence): 1.4
Super Cell: 2.4

Then Gohan takes a hit meant for Vegeta. Afterward, he notes that he's at half power, and I buy his injury being a part of it, but I think most of his lack of power is due to his mindset.

SSJ2 Gohan (lack of confidence plus injury): 1.3

It's not until Goku encourages him the last time that he finally defeats Cell.

SSJ2 Gohan (injury): 2.5
Super Cell: 2.4

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan was never weaker than Cell, at any stage. At worst, he was equal to Cell. Gohan was just holding back the first time round they fought. If he went all out as a FPSSJ from the get go, he would most most likely beaten Cell. Becoming a SSJ2, just the made the job much more easier for him.

I don't buy that. He was completely helpless when Cell was squeezing him, and Cell was still suppressed at that time. Even if he had been holding back that much up until that point there's no way he wouldn't have instinctively broken away from Cell's grip at that point if he had the power. And when his friends were on the verge of being killed he would have done something about it sooner if he could have.

Quite frankly I don't think Goku would have survived training with Gohan if he was already that strong.

Gohan lacked the self confidence to let his power "explode" as he feared he would become a completely different person if he let his rage take over him and boost his power.

[90sDBZ]

Gohan was never weaker than Cell, at any stage. At worst, he was equal to Cell. Gohan was just holding back the first time round they fought. If he went all out as a FPSSJ from the get go, he would most most likely beaten Cell. Becoming a SSJ2, just the made the job much more easier for him.

I don't buy that. He was completely helpless when Cell was squeezing him, and Cell was still suppressed at that time. Even if he had been holding back that much up until that point there's no way he wouldn't have instinctively broken away from Cell's grip at that point if he had the power. And when his friends were on the verge of being killed he would have done something about it sooner if he could have.

Quite frankly I don't think Goku would have survived training with Gohan if he was already that strong.

Gohan lacked the self confidence to let his power "explode" as he feared he would become a completely different person if he let his rage take over him and boost his power.

By letting his power "explode" he would simply have gone SS2 like he did later. His SS1 was at its limit and he couldn't break free from Cell's grip unless he transformed.

[Hitiro]

By letting his power "explode" he would simply have gone SS2 like he did later. His SS1 was at its limit and he couldn't break free from Cell's grip unless he transformed.

Gohan managed to put Cell, who was going all out in speed[1], on it's ass while being completely unmotivated. That in and of itself is an incredible feat. Gohan could definitely be slightly stronger than Cell. Doesn't mean Cell can't squeeze him like he did. It is very difficult to break out of that kind of grip even with superior strength to your opponent.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P3.3
Context: after Gohan kicks Cell
Kuririn: “He knocked Cell down…!”

[Cursed Lemon]

I'm not sure why we're adamant about making Gohan's rage boost an extra increase in power on top of his SSJ2 transformation, rather than just the thing that got him to SSJ2 in the first place.

[fadeddreams5]

I'm not sure why we're adamant about making Gohan's rage boost an extra increase in power on top of his SSJ2 transformation, rather than just the thing that got him to SSJ2 in the first place.

It makes him unique.

Also, SSJ2 should never have been a thing.

[rereboy]

I'm not sure why we're adamant about making Gohan's rage boost an extra increase in power on top of his SSJ2 transformation, rather than just the thing that got him to SSJ2 in the first place.

Because he obviously raged in that situation and Gohan has always had rage boosts. Heck, Gohan even had a conscious rage boost after becoming SSJ2, and that's how he surpassed Cell in the beam struggle.

[Vice]

Before the guides came out, my head canon had it as a 5x increase per new level.

[Lord Beerus]

Also, SSJ2 should never have been a thing.

Why do you think that?

[supercat]

I always saw it as a 2-3x increase. 2x on the lower end, (when just casually fighting), but 2.5-3x on the higher end once they tap into the max power the form has to offer or some kind of boost is triggered through rage or other emotional means.

Personally, I always liked the SSJ2 transformation. The subtle and simple upgrades portrayed a really clean cut look.

[90sDBZ]

By letting his power "explode" he would simply have gone SS2 like he did later. His SS1 was at its limit and he couldn't break free from Cell's grip unless he transformed.

Gohan managed to put Cell, who was going all out in speed[1], on it's ass while being completely unmotivated. That in and of itself is an incredible feat. Gohan could definitely be slightly stronger than Cell. Doesn't mean Cell can't squeeze him like he did. It is very difficult to break out of that kind of grip even with superior strength to your opponent.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P3.3
Context: after Gohan kicks Cell
Kuririn: “He knocked Cell down…!”

It looked to me more like Cell just getting caught off guard due to being careless. Krillin was able to knock Nappa flying when he was being careless but it doesn't mean he was anywhere near as strong as him.