So what exactly is this SSGSS?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No, that's just indisputable proof that a video game's writers decided to include some witty dialogue between characters whom we haven't seen meet under any other context.

It was a joke.

[Bullza]

So the transformation of SSJ4 is arguably less impressive if you consider that Base Goku(Pre-EoZ), who was weaker than 100% Freeza, became stronger than SSJ Vegetto with SSJGod whereas Base Goku(Post-EoZ), who is arguably as strong as Boo arc SSJ3 Goku, only reached SSJ Vegetto levels with the SSJ4 transformation

Well SSJGod would be stronger than SSJ3 Vegito as there'd be no reason why he wouldn't be able transform to that level but still wrote the form off when he mentioned using it against Beerus.

So SSGSS Goku > SSJGod Goku > SSJ3 Vegito > SSJ2 Vegito > SSJ Vegito > SSJ4 Goku.

There's a world of difference between the two.

I don't know when that comment was said about Super Vegito and SSJ4, he did see a big power up when he fought Syn Shenron so maybe he passed Vegito at that point but he wouldn't be close at all.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I see it more like:

Super Yi Xing Long > SS4 Goku (Beyond limits) > Yi Xing Long > Whiss > Beers > SSGSS Goku > SS God Goku > SS3 Vegetto (BoG) >/>~ SS3 Vegetto (Buu) >= SS4 Goku (Baby) > SBV2 > SBV1 > Super Vegetto > SS3 Goku (Baby) > SS2 Goku > SS Goku > Base Goku (Baby) > Rild > Gohan-Buu

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Which would be silly still.

Silly or not, it's the official stance they have shown so far.

Because if they were really at a disadvantage at any time they could whip out the God ritual. I mean they had several chances to do it.

They needed it in Baby arc, and it was impossible because everyone but Goku & Pan were possessed by Baby. And if SS4 is stronger than SSG, there would be no reason to do the ritual after that.

There are timelines that show multiple universes events rather than a singular universes events.

But doesn't this timeline explain which events take place in a different timeline, like the events in Trunks' timeline?

There's surely no way BoG/RoF take place in the same time as GT.

They can fit actually:

There was no mention of Super Saiyan God's, Beerus, Whis or Freeza.

Τhere was no reason to mention them in the first place. I mean, Future Trunks wasn't mentioned either, but this doesn't make him non-canon to GT.

Goku and Vegeta were Super Saiyans, Toriyama even said they probably wouldn't go SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore and that would be referring to his vision of the timeline.

Which would mean that they lost Super Saiyan God, somehow, or the multipliers returned somehow.

Freeza was a pansy and wasn't Gold.

Freeza didn't use his Full Power form either, and both his Full Power & Golden forms drain his ki, which would mean that he just chose to abandon them both.

He was in a completely different looking Hell.

Hell looks different in DBZ filler, FnF, and GT, which means that Hell doesn't look the same in every area.

And so on. You could make arguments to try and tie them together but this DB Super is probably only going to further push them apart.

If Super makes GT impossible to fit, it only means that GT doesn't take place in the same continuity with Super. It doesn't affect BoG & FnF.

Xenoverse is just a game and really doesn't mean anything for them being tied together. I don't know what was said in Chozenshu or the promotional material though.

XenoVerse being "just a game" means nothing, it's still an official part of the franchise. The promotional stuff stated that BoG takes place before GT, and Chozenshuu has BoG & GT within the same timeline.

I don't know when that comment was said about Super Vegito and SSJ4, he did see a big power up when he fought Syn Shenron so maybe he passed Vegito at that point but he wouldn't be close at all.

The comment was made during the Evil Dragons arc, during the fight with the 7-Star Dragon. It's contradicted by the series though, because Super Baby 1 is implied to be stronger than Super Vegetto. But then again, the comment says that Vegetto in general is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4, so maybe they mean Vegetto at his max, which would be his Super Saiyan 3.

[Kaboom]

No, that's just indisputable proof that a video game's writers decided to include some witty dialogue between characters whom we haven't seen meet under any other context.

It was a joke.

Gotcha. Hard to tell with these kinds of topics.

[Hitiro]

They needed it in Baby arc, and it was impossible because everyone but Goku & Pan were possessed by Baby. And if SS4 is stronger than SSG, there would be no reason to do the ritual after that.

All the Saiyan's(except Bra) under Bebi's spell were saved by Kibitoshin with the sacred water and formed a SSJ circle to power-up SSJ4 Goku before he had to go up against Golden Oozaru Bebi. Why couldn't they have done it there? Goku also became a "Beyond limits" SSJ4 in the dragon arc.

But doesn't this timeline explain which events take place in a different timeline, like the events in Trunks' timeline?

I wouldn't know. I haven't seen the actual timeline. All I was pointing out is that there are timelines that incorporate multiple universes.

[Bullza]

Τhere was no reason to mention them in the first place. I mean, Future Trunks wasn't mentioned either, but this doesn't make him non-canon to GT.

Future Trunks hadn't been seen 22 years when he had his final farewell. Beerus and Whis are still sort of around, what is it 9 years beforehand? More than that though with all the trouble they were having with villains the SSJGod power was never mentioned.

Which would mean that they lost Super Saiyan God, somehow, or the multipliers returned somehow.

Which is incredibly and almost certainly unlikely. If it was intended to fit in with GT then the whole idea of introducing new concepts and forms and further powering up the characters only for them to just lose it and go backwards by making them weaker and bringing back old forms is silly.

Toriyama said that they probably wouldn't transform into the forms they did in GT anymore. Some people say "Well he only said may" but it's a completely pointless comment to make if it was intended to fit with GT and they obviously did become SSJ2 and 3.

Toriyama obviously doesn't see GT as being a part of the main timeline unlike BoG/RoF the two are separate from one another.

Freeza didn't use his Full Power form either

With how powerful Frieza had got by RoF there's no way he should have been man handled by base Goku in that form like he did.

Hell looks different in DBZ filler, FnF, and GT, which means that Hell doesn't look the same in every area.

The Hell in RoF is the only true look of the place. The Hell in GT was different and they weren't in pods. It's an alternate version of Hell from a alternate timeline.

If Super makes GT impossible to fit, it only means that GT doesn't take place in the same continuity with Super. It doesn't affect BoG & FnF.

Not if Super directly ties in and follows the events of those movies and then proves to not fit in with GT.

XenoVerse being "just a game" means nothing, it's still an official part of the franchise. The promotional stuff stated that BoG takes place before GT, and Chozenshuu has BoG & GT within the same timeline.

It does matter because it's events aren't canonical and it does things for the sake of gameplay. They aren't just going to cut out GT and the extra characters just because it doesn't in with the movies and their characters.

And if what Beerus says is true its said to be an alternate timeline anyway.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All the Saiyan's(except Bra) under Bebi's spell were saved by Kibitoshin with the sacred water and formed a SSJ circle to power-up SSJ4 Goku before he had to go up against Golden Oozaru Bebi. Why couldn't they have done it there? Goku also became a "Beyond limits" SSJ4 in the dragon arc.

Which would mean that Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than Super Saiyan God. Even Super Baby 1 should be stronger than SSGSS Goku, if they take place in the same continuity.

Future Trunks hadn't been seen 22 years when he had his final farewell. Beerus and Whis are still sort of around, what is it 9 years beforehand? More than that though with all the trouble they were having with villains the SSJGod power was never mentioned.

Toriyama said that they probably wouldn't transform into the forms they did in GT anymore. Some people say "Well he only said may" but it's a completely pointless comment to make if it was intended to fit with GT and they obviously did become SSJ2 and 3.

Toriyama obviously doesn't see GT as being a part of the main timeline unlike BoG/RoF the two are separate from one another.

Saying that character x can't be canon in something because he/she wasn't mentioned again is a silly excuse. I mean, why would they mention Beerus or Whis? What reference would you expect?

Which is incredibly and almost certainly unlikely. If it was intended to fit in with GT then the whole idea of introducing new concepts and forms and further powering up the characters only for them to just lose it and go backwards by making them weaker and bringing back old forms is silly.

It wasn't intended to fit, since Toriyama obviously doesn't care about anything he hasn't wrote, and the scriptwriter of BoG said that he doesn't take into account GT because it's not part of the original story, so the writers of BoG obviously didn't care about GT. However, those who do take GT into account (like Toei & Shueisha) place BoG & GT in the same continuity. But this doesn't mean that GT is non-canon to BoG, it only explains why there are plot-holes between the two of them.

With how powerful Freeza had got by RoF there's no way he should have been man handled by base Goku in that form like he did.

That would mean that Goku got even more powerful.

The Hell in RoF is the only true look of the place. The Hell in GT was different and they weren't in pods. It's an alternate version of Hell from a alternate timeline.

Do you have any proof that every place in Hell looks the same?

Not if Super directly ties in and follows the events of those movies and then proves to not fit in with GT.

If Super takes place after the end of the manga/Z/Kai, then nothing stops BoG & FnF from taking place in the same continuity with GT, unless we learn otherwise.

It does matter because it's events aren't canonical and it does things for the sake of gameplay. They aren't just going to cut out GT and the extra characters just because it doesn't in with the movies and their characters.

There is no official canon in Dragon Ball.

[Bullza]

Saying that character x can't be canon in something because he/she wasn't mentioned again is a silly excuse. I mean, why would they mention Beerus or Whis? What reference would you expect?

Why wouldn't they? Whis has trained the two and helped them grow stronger, they're incredibly powerful being and potential allies of which one has a very unique ability that could be put to great use.

They could have called on Whis to save Earth from being blown up again.

But this doesn't mean that GT is non-canon to BoG, it only explains why there are plot-holes between the two of them.

Your former point of Toriyama not caring about it and the other writer saying it's not part of the original story is what matters as they are the one's creating the original material. If Toriyama doesn't see it as happening then it doesn't.

That would mean that Goku got even more powerful.

That wouldn't make sense because he was concerned about Rildo being as strong as Buu who is a chump now compared to Frieza or base Goku.

Do you have any proof that every place in Hell looks the same?

Of course not but the movie showed twice that when you die you get shoved in some cocoon that you can't get out out of. Why is he not still in the cocoon in GT?

If Super takes place after the end of the manga/Z/Kai, then nothing stops BoG & FnF from taking place in the same continuity with GT, unless we learn otherwise.

It's all speculation right now but if it's set after RoF or EoZ and directly references things from the movies (which it would) then there's every chance that it will only contradict GT more and more.

The show was widely hated anyway, I don't think they're going to concern and limit themselves by trying to tie them together.

There is no official canon in Dragon Ball.

There's an official history which is practically the same thing.

[Hitiro]

Which would mean that Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than Super Saiyan God. Even Super Baby 1 should be stronger than SSGSS Goku, if they take place in the same continuity.

How? We have material referencing SSJ4 Goku rivalling SSJ Vegetto. Base Goku Pre-EoZ is less than 100% Freeza and SSJG puts him way above SSJ Vegetto. Meanwhile SSJ4 makes GT Base Goku go from Boo Arc SSJ3 Goku tier to rivalling SSJ Vegetto. SSJGod is clearly more powerful than SSJ4. It would look like this:

Pre-EoZ Goku: 10
Pre-EoZ SSJ3 Goku: 4,000
SSJ Vegetto: 16,000,000
SSJGod Goku: 160,000,000

GT Goku: 4,000
GT SSJ Goku: 200,000
GT SSJ2 Goku: 400,000
GT SSJ3 Goku: 1,600,000
GT SSJ4 Goku: 16,000,000

^Goku's power increases over 40,000 with SSJGod whereas SSJ4 only increases it by 4,000 in this example.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

^ It's not specific on the form, that's just one interpretation of it, the material could easily be talking about Vegetto as a whole. And Base GT Goku >>>> Buu arc SS3 Goku. Goku was comparing Rild to Gohan-Buu not Good/Pure Buu.

I think it takes a lot of grasping to make the two work in the same continuity. Rild was obviously somewhat on par with Base Goku, and Goku compliments Rild's for being above Buu's, as if that was impressive. If Rild was god tier it obviously wouldn't even be what so impressive about him.

[Hitiro]

^ It's not specific on the form, that's just one interpretation of it, the material could easily be talking about Vegetto as a whole. And Base GT Goku >>>> Buu arc SS3 Goku. Goku was comparing Rild to Gohan-Buu not Good/Pure Buu.

I think it takes a lot of grasping to make the two work in the same continuity. Rild was obviously somewhat on par with Base Goku, and Goku compliments Rild's for being above Buu's, as if that was impressive. If Rild was god tier it obviously wouldn't even be what so impressive about him.

If Goku is even stronger than his Boo Arc self then the SSJ4 gain is even smaller. It just makes my point further that SSJ4 < SSJGod.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The SS4 boost seems to be pretty big if you ask me.

Golden Ozaru Baby >= SS4 Goku >>>...>> SBV2 >>> SBV1 >> Base Vegeta-Baby > SS3 Goku

The PF says Baby's transformations mirror Super Saiyan transformations, so if we use the implied multipliers from GT instead of the Z ones (which are bigger, and would make the boost seem even bigger), at bare minimum it'd be something like this:

Gohan-Buu: .8

Rild: .9

Base Goku: 1
-SS: 2.5
-SS2: 3.75
-SS3: 11.25
-SS4: 600

Vegeta-Baby: 13.5
-SBV1: 20.25
-SBV2: 60.75
-Golden Ozaru: 607.5

[Hitiro]

The SS4 boost seems to be pretty big if you ask me.

Golden Ozaru Baby >= SS4 Goku >>>...>> SBV2 >>> SBV1 >> Base Vegeta-Baby > SS3 Goku

The PF says Baby's transformations mirror Super Saiyan transformations, so if we use the implied multipliers from GT instead of the Z ones (which are bigger, and would make the boost seem even bigger), at bare minimum it'd be something like this:

Gohan-Buu: .8

Rild: .9

Base Goku: 1
-SS: 2.5
-SS2: 3.75
-SS3: 11.25
-SS4: 600

Vegeta-Baby: 13.5
-SBV1: 20.25
-SBV2: 60.75
-Golden Ozaru: 607.5

600x is weaker than the number I suggested which was 4,000. Something I assumed from merging the multipliers of Oozaru and SSJ together. And the difference between it and SSJGod would be insurmountable.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well, if you're one of those who doesn't believe the multipliers are smaller in GT than in Z, it could be a lot bigger, like;

Gohan-Buu: .8

Rild: .9

Base Goku: 1
-SS: 50
-SS2: 100
-SS3: 400
-SS4: 37,500

Vegeta-Baby: 500
-SBV1: 1,000
-SBV2: 4,000
-Golden Ozaru: 40,000

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why wouldn't they? Whis has trained the two and helped them grow stronger, they're incredibly powerful being and potential allies of which one has a very unique ability that could be put to great use.

They could have called on Whis to save Earth from being blown up again.

And Whis wouldn't help because he is neutral.

Your former point of Toriyama not caring about it and the other writer saying it's not part of the original story is what matters as they are the one's creating the original material. If Toriyama doesn't see it as happening then it doesn't.

Not necessarily. They didn't care about contradicting GT, but they didn't go ahead & said that GT didn't happen after BoG, or else we weren't have been told that BoG takes place before GT, and we wouldn't have a timeline with both of them in.

That wouldn't make sense because he was concerned about Rildo being as strong as Buu who is a chump now compared to Freeza or base Goku.

He was excited, not concerned. And he wasn't even planning to transform until Rild transformed.

Of course not but the movie showed twice that when you die you get shoved in some cocoon that you can't get out out of. Why is he not still in the cocoon in GT?

No, the movie showed that this was Freeza's punishment at the moment.

There's an official history which is practically the same thing.

We have no idea what the official history is.

How? We have material referencing SSJ4 Goku rivalling SSJ Vegetto. Base Goku Pre-EoZ is less than 100% Freeza and SSJG puts him way above SSJ Vegetto. Meanwhile SSJ4 makes GT Base Goku go from Boo Arc SSJ3 Goku tier to rivalling SSJ Vegetto. SSJGod is clearly more powerful than SSJ4. It would look like this:

Pre-EoZ Goku: 10
Pre-EoZ SSJ3 Goku: 4,000
SSJ Vegetto: 16,000,000
SSJGod Goku: 160,000,000

GT Goku: 4,000
GT SSJ Goku: 200,000
GT SSJ2 Goku: 400,000
GT SSJ3 Goku: 1,600,000
GT SSJ4 Goku: 16,000,000

^Goku's power increases over 40,000 with SSJGod whereas SSJ4 only increases it by 4,000 in this example.

Super Baby 1 says that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power ever, and he was the strongest current Saiyan before the transformation. Goku even says that this is the strongest ki he has ever felt, and that he really is the strongest in the universe. Which means that Super Baby 1 > everything before, including Super Vegetto, SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Beerus, even Whis.

[Hitiro]

Super Baby 1 says that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power ever, and he was the strongest current Saiyan before the transformation. Goku even says that this is the strongest ki he has ever felt, and that he really is the strongest in the universe. Which means that Super Baby 1 > everything before, including Super Vegetto, SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Beerus, even Whis.

Actually, Super Bebi never says he has the greatest Saiya power ever, only that he now has obtained the greatest of Saiya power. Considering that SSJ Vegetto doesn't even exist now he would have the greatest of Saiya power without being stronger than SSJ Vegetto. And as for Goku sensing his Ki. Goku can't compare it to SSJ Vegetto because he was SSJ Vegetto. As far as the story is concerned they don't sense their own Ki. Only others around them. So Goku could never compare Super Bebi to himself or Vegetto. But it wouldn't stop him from comparing Super Bebi to above anybody else that has come along that Goku sensed. We already have a information that SSJ4 Goku is comparable to SSJ Vegetto so having Super Baby above SSJ Vegeto would make no sense.

And you can't even use SSJGSSJ Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Beerus or Whis because we've already discussed why BoG and FnF can't fit into GT. You can't argue that their power dropped in one scenario and then argue that they greatly surpassed it in another scenario just because you wish for them to be linked. And like I said. There is nothing stopping any of these characters from using the superior SSJGod in any fights during and after the Bebi arc. Vegeta or Goku could have used it against #17 to stop them from becoming Super #17. They could have used it against the Dragons too.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Actually, Super Bebi never says he has the greatest Saiya power ever, only that he now has obtained the greatest of Saiya power.

But he had already obtained the greatest Saiya power before his transformation, so it would only make sense if he is talking about every Saiyan that exists now & before, and Goku even calls him the strongest in the universe. Whis was the strongest of the universe before Baby.

And you can't even use SSJGSSJ Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Beerus or Whis because we've already discussed why BoG and FnF can't fit into GT.

Whether they fit or not, the official stance so far is that they take place in the same continuity.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Super Vegeta-Baby 1 being the greatest in the Universe is a dub line ^, but I have always found the "you can't sense your own Ki" bit to be reaching, and you're right about SVB1 having to surpass someone, since he was already the greatest Saiyan existing before transforming, and because, there's no one else for Goku to be referencing. He's already felt a Ki greater than Gohan-Buu's, so Vegetto is all that's left for both categories.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super Vegeta-Baby 1 being the greatest in the Universe is a dub line

Shit, how did that get in my head?!

But still, assuming that Goku hasn't sensed Beerus' & Whis' full powers, Super Baby 1 is at least stronger than Golden Freeza & 70% Beerus.