Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Mr. Satan isn't African...
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
You know, I always thought that Zarbon was a little bit on the fruity side...
Since nothing was ever confirmed, I guess no one knows. Although, Dodoria might know...if you catch my drift.
Since nothing was ever confirmed, I guess no one knows. Although, Dodoria might know...if you catch my drift.
One World. 
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Personally I'm in the "if it's just a thing that's not called attention to any more than the straight characters' preferences, go ahead; just don't make a big song and dance about it like it's something weird" camp. Like, the two suggestions a few pages back that I think would work great were (I don't remember who said them, sorry):
-The "Kamesen'nin in crowd with new character, makes dirty-old-guy remark about ogling all the women around, new character says he doesn't swing that way, the response is just something like 'all the more for me then, eheheh!'" one. (though you could replace "new character" with, like, Uub/Oob or somebody to be honest)
-The "Grown-up Bra (or really anybody of the younger generation with their preference not yet specified) briefly shown walking along the street with same-sex partner, then just villain attacks and 20 episodes of fighting" one.
I mean...I'm not saying the series must do something like this in Super or a future movie or something or it'll be terrible. Not exactly demanding that they do it. Just that it would be a fairly simple and reasonable way of dropping in an interesting detail about a character, and I'd quite like to see either of 'em happen to be honest.
-The "Kamesen'nin in crowd with new character, makes dirty-old-guy remark about ogling all the women around, new character says he doesn't swing that way, the response is just something like 'all the more for me then, eheheh!'" one. (though you could replace "new character" with, like, Uub/Oob or somebody to be honest)
-The "Grown-up Bra (or really anybody of the younger generation with their preference not yet specified) briefly shown walking along the street with same-sex partner, then just villain attacks and 20 episodes of fighting" one.
I mean...I'm not saying the series must do something like this in Super or a future movie or something or it'll be terrible. Not exactly demanding that they do it. Just that it would be a fairly simple and reasonable way of dropping in an interesting detail about a character, and I'd quite like to see either of 'em happen to be honest.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Hmm, I'm not sure insisting on a character's sexuality is something that fits Dragon Ball, whether they're straight or bi or gay.
It just something that doesn't come into play in the plot, the characters so far barely have any more signs of this than "by the way, those two got together and had a kid" or bursts of anger when someone gets hurt (which is not much since it happens with lovers and friends alike).
So outright doing or saying something to show that "by the way, this character is gay" would really feel forced and "just because we could and because we had to spread a message" (when it happened in the manga, it served the story and was meant for a scene's humorous purposes, but it's hard to imagine it having a serious purpose when romance hardly ever plays a big role in a DB plot).
I think the fact that some characters' looks or behaviors already hints at them being possibly gay or bi is already enough. The fact that you think: "perhaps he is, who knows?"
Some effeminate characters like Jeese or Zabon are easy examples, since associating "effeminate" to "possibly gay" is a stereotypical habit.
But history has proven that much more simple and innocent interactions are enough to spark people's imagination as to what could be or not.
Goten and Trunks are a good example of this: they've always been shown to be very close in many ways, and although it is clearly stated that they are both after girls and nothing has ever been shown to imply that they would be after boys, their friendly way of playfully dancing together in the epilogue was enough to make some people think of it, to the point that Goten and Trunks do end up being together in the epilogue era in released parodies like Dragon Fall.
I really think I'm not making myself clear, but the simple fact that some looks or some behaviors or some gestures are enough for SOME people to think of the concept, even if they discard it right away with a "nah, that wouldn't happen", is already enough to make this story seems "open-minded" on the subject.
There is obviously no problem in showing high levels of chemistry between characters of the same gender either, as interactions like Goku and Cell are also sometimes sort of "warrior equivalent" to flirting.
All in all, I think Dragon Ball doesn't need to have openly gay or bi characters as giving that info would feel shoehorned (the context usually never required to talk about characters' sexuality, so it would feel weird to suddenly insist on it when it has no important asset to bring to the table) and because I think the DB story does feel open-minded already and doesn't feel "macho", it doesn't feel like "let's have only muscular men that look like REAL MEN with a manly behavior and a manly way to move and speak, keeping a minimum manly distance between them at all times and only have tough interactions and saying DON'T TOUCH ME whenever any guy puts a hand on their shoulder".
Male characters can silently smile at each other while filling the cup of "you are so wonderful" compliments, climb onto each other's shoulders, hold hands, playfully dance together, take a bath together, etc... I think Dragon Ball already feels modern in that way and non-macho, and I think stating "this character is gay by the way" would feel like too much, it would feel as subtle as showing a big panel on screen saying "our message of the day: it's okay to be bi or gay".
But as some members here implied, if it's done in a subtle way that just goes smoothly with the rest and doesn't feel like "let's stop a second to give you a lesson of life", it's okay: a simple reply like the example Captain Space used in the post right above mine, or like in Mortal Kombat X for Kung Jin, is enough to get the message without the viewer feeling like there's an intrusion of external factors.
No big anouncement or shoehorned demonstration as that would outrage some fans, more like a single throwaway line that would make them conclude "oh? Oh, I see..." without making them go through some big and whiny "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS DOING IN MY SHOW?!" fuss.
In other words, if it ever happens, handle it like Mortal Kombat X or The Flash, not like Gotham.
It just something that doesn't come into play in the plot, the characters so far barely have any more signs of this than "by the way, those two got together and had a kid" or bursts of anger when someone gets hurt (which is not much since it happens with lovers and friends alike).
So outright doing or saying something to show that "by the way, this character is gay" would really feel forced and "just because we could and because we had to spread a message" (when it happened in the manga, it served the story and was meant for a scene's humorous purposes, but it's hard to imagine it having a serious purpose when romance hardly ever plays a big role in a DB plot).
I think the fact that some characters' looks or behaviors already hints at them being possibly gay or bi is already enough. The fact that you think: "perhaps he is, who knows?"
Some effeminate characters like Jeese or Zabon are easy examples, since associating "effeminate" to "possibly gay" is a stereotypical habit.
But history has proven that much more simple and innocent interactions are enough to spark people's imagination as to what could be or not.
Goten and Trunks are a good example of this: they've always been shown to be very close in many ways, and although it is clearly stated that they are both after girls and nothing has ever been shown to imply that they would be after boys, their friendly way of playfully dancing together in the epilogue was enough to make some people think of it, to the point that Goten and Trunks do end up being together in the epilogue era in released parodies like Dragon Fall.
I really think I'm not making myself clear, but the simple fact that some looks or some behaviors or some gestures are enough for SOME people to think of the concept, even if they discard it right away with a "nah, that wouldn't happen", is already enough to make this story seems "open-minded" on the subject.
There is obviously no problem in showing high levels of chemistry between characters of the same gender either, as interactions like Goku and Cell are also sometimes sort of "warrior equivalent" to flirting.
All in all, I think Dragon Ball doesn't need to have openly gay or bi characters as giving that info would feel shoehorned (the context usually never required to talk about characters' sexuality, so it would feel weird to suddenly insist on it when it has no important asset to bring to the table) and because I think the DB story does feel open-minded already and doesn't feel "macho", it doesn't feel like "let's have only muscular men that look like REAL MEN with a manly behavior and a manly way to move and speak, keeping a minimum manly distance between them at all times and only have tough interactions and saying DON'T TOUCH ME whenever any guy puts a hand on their shoulder".
Male characters can silently smile at each other while filling the cup of "you are so wonderful" compliments, climb onto each other's shoulders, hold hands, playfully dance together, take a bath together, etc... I think Dragon Ball already feels modern in that way and non-macho, and I think stating "this character is gay by the way" would feel like too much, it would feel as subtle as showing a big panel on screen saying "our message of the day: it's okay to be bi or gay".
But as some members here implied, if it's done in a subtle way that just goes smoothly with the rest and doesn't feel like "let's stop a second to give you a lesson of life", it's okay: a simple reply like the example Captain Space used in the post right above mine, or like in Mortal Kombat X for Kung Jin, is enough to get the message without the viewer feeling like there's an intrusion of external factors.
No big anouncement or shoehorned demonstration as that would outrage some fans, more like a single throwaway line that would make them conclude "oh? Oh, I see..." without making them go through some big and whiny "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS DOING IN MY SHOW?!" fuss.
In other words, if it ever happens, handle it like Mortal Kombat X or The Flash, not like Gotham.
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Captain Space
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Sure, that's reasonable, but as a sort of addendum I don't think it'd feel forced or shoehorned at all just to have this:
However, while I'm aware of the Mortal Kombat and Flash moments you mentioned, I hadn't heard about the Gotham one--did they make a big song-and-dance about it?
...happen with two guys/girls (and framed in a way, like Vegeta in BoG, that makes it fairly clear that it's not just a friends thing). Not as a "hey look" statement, just a character moment.Cold Skin wrote:or bursts of anger when someone gets hurt (which is not much since it happens with lovers and friends alike).
However, while I'm aware of the Mortal Kombat and Flash moments you mentioned, I hadn't heard about the Gotham one--did they make a big song-and-dance about it?
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
^ Yep, it was the "put it there just to put it there" thing that brings nothing to a story.
The Flash has a villain who is gay, but it was just casually mentionned in his backstory as to why he was rejected by his aristocratic parents, so it served a purpose. Otherwise, you would not guess that he is gay.
Mortal Kombat just has Kung Jin mention that his clan won't accept him, and Raiden says that "they care for who you are, not whom your heart desires", which was confirmed by writers to be indeed implying that he is gay. Again, it serves a purpose and is thrown in in a natural way in what seems to be a natural and justified conversation, not in a "by the way, GAY CHARACTER HERE, just to show that we're okay with that and to attract some gay audience if we can!"
Same here, except for that natural line, he is not depicted as being any different than other male characters and wouldn't be able to tell he's gay otherwise.
This is the right way to integrate gay or bi characters: making it feel seemless and natural, not making it feel different compared to any other romance of any other character.
And that's why it would be tough to do in Dragon Ball: no romance really plays a role in the events whatsoever, so it would be tough to reveal a character is gay AND make it feel natural to Dragon Ball viewers and bringing something that other romances bring... since romances hardly ever bring anything to begin with in the DB stories.
Gotham made Barbara get in bed with an ex-girlfriend when it brings nothing to the plot and just for the hell of it. It is irrelevant to the rest of the plot and never mentionned again, nor does it bring any consequence to the story. It was basically to show two girls in bed making out, with no other justification, and was widely critisized for bringing nothing in comments (along with the Barbara character in general throughout the season).
The Flash has a villain who is gay, but it was just casually mentionned in his backstory as to why he was rejected by his aristocratic parents, so it served a purpose. Otherwise, you would not guess that he is gay.
Mortal Kombat just has Kung Jin mention that his clan won't accept him, and Raiden says that "they care for who you are, not whom your heart desires", which was confirmed by writers to be indeed implying that he is gay. Again, it serves a purpose and is thrown in in a natural way in what seems to be a natural and justified conversation, not in a "by the way, GAY CHARACTER HERE, just to show that we're okay with that and to attract some gay audience if we can!"
Same here, except for that natural line, he is not depicted as being any different than other male characters and wouldn't be able to tell he's gay otherwise.
This is the right way to integrate gay or bi characters: making it feel seemless and natural, not making it feel different compared to any other romance of any other character.
And that's why it would be tough to do in Dragon Ball: no romance really plays a role in the events whatsoever, so it would be tough to reveal a character is gay AND make it feel natural to Dragon Ball viewers and bringing something that other romances bring... since romances hardly ever bring anything to begin with in the DB stories.
Gotham made Barbara get in bed with an ex-girlfriend when it brings nothing to the plot and just for the hell of it. It is irrelevant to the rest of the plot and never mentionned again, nor does it bring any consequence to the story. It was basically to show two girls in bed making out, with no other justification, and was widely critisized for bringing nothing in comments (along with the Barbara character in general throughout the season).
Last edited by Cold Skin on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Well, in The Flash, there was also the police captain who was gay just because.Cold Skin wrote:In other words, if it ever happens, handle it like Mortal Kombat X or The Flash, not like Gotham.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
^ But you could not notice it unless it was stated at some point, and even then, it didn't feel like "by the way, I'm gay" and no character around was like "OH?! WHAT?! The captain has a boyfriend?".
It was just as if he had a girlfriend, there was no big deal and nobody seemed to react and behave any other way than if he was mentionning a girlfriend.
It was a detail that wasn't the big special detail that makes the captain who he is. 95% of the time, you wouldn't know the captain is gay.
It's just as if they had made the captain black: would be a characteristic, but not something emphasized as a game changer.
It was just as if he had a girlfriend, there was no big deal and nobody seemed to react and behave any other way than if he was mentionning a girlfriend.
It was a detail that wasn't the big special detail that makes the captain who he is. 95% of the time, you wouldn't know the captain is gay.
It's just as if they had made the captain black: would be a characteristic, but not something emphasized as a game changer.
Last edited by Cold Skin on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
I know, my point is that they handled it like they did with Barbara in Gotham. It didn't serve any purpose to the plot, and it wouldn't make any difference if he was straight.Cold Skin wrote:^ But you could not notice it unless it was stated at some point, and even then, it didn't feel like "by the way, I'm gay" and no character around was like "OH?! WHAT?! The captain has a boyfriend?".
It was just as if he had a girlfriend, there was no big deal and nobody seemed to react and behave any other way than if he was mentionning a girlfriend.
It was a detail that wasn't the big special detail that makes the captain who he is. 95% of the time, you wouldn't know the captain is gay.
Not that I have any issue with it, just Saiyan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
^ Yeah, I understand, but it's just a characteristic like being black or wearing glasses. No need, but it helps making distinct characters, and it's just acknowledged casually.
In Barbara's case, it was really "she cheated on her husband to have fun in bed with her ex-girlfriend, watch two girls making out, it's sexy... then forget about it, because we'll never mention it again and it will have no incidence and never be used again, it was just to show you two girls randomly making out".
There are those that make it to have real-life variety in their shows. Then it's a nice touch.
And there are those that make it to try to create a mini-buzz and say "watch two girls make out this one time and then we'll forget it ever happpened". Then it feels gratuitous and unjustified.
In Barbara's case, it was really "she cheated on her husband to have fun in bed with her ex-girlfriend, watch two girls making out, it's sexy... then forget about it, because we'll never mention it again and it will have no incidence and never be used again, it was just to show you two girls randomly making out".
There are those that make it to have real-life variety in their shows. Then it's a nice touch.
And there are those that make it to try to create a mini-buzz and say "watch two girls make out this one time and then we'll forget it ever happpened". Then it feels gratuitous and unjustified.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Well, Gotham isn't over yet, and I doubt that this won't be mentioned again.Cold Skin wrote:^ Yeah, I understand, but it's just a characteristic like being black or wearing glasses. No need, but it helps making distinct characters, and it's just acknowledged casually.
In Barbara's case, it was really "she cheated on her husband to have fun in bed with her ex-girlfriend, watch two girls making out, it's sexy... then forget about it, because we'll never mention it again and it will have no incidence and never be used again, it was just to show you two girls randomly making out".
There are those that make it to have real-life variety in their shows. Then it's a nice touch.
And there are those that make it to try to create a mini-buzz and say "watch two girls make out this one time and then we'll forget it ever happpened". Then it feels gratuitous and unjustified.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
That's just factually wrong. The series has many blatanly heterosexual jokes and heterosexual characters. It even comes into plot directly in form of specific relationships and/or their offsprings. The outburts, even if rare themselves can have major impact because of the (heterosexual) relationship context. Latest examples in 2 most recent movies with enraged Vegeta after Beerus hits Bulma in BOG and Bulma's despair when she thinks Vegeta may have died in ROF.Cold Skin wrote:Hmm, I'm not sure insisting on a character's sexuality is something that fits Dragon Ball, whether they're straight or bi or gay.
It just something that doesn't come into play in the plot, the characters so far barely have any more signs of this than "by the way, those two got together and had a kid" or bursts of anger when someone gets hurt (which is not much since it happens with lovers and friends alike).
Nobody's saying homosexual characters/jokes/display should be more blatant or prevalent than their heterosexual counterparts, but there's absolutely no reason to hide the homosexual side or try to veil it behind vague "wink wink nudge nudge Goten maybe perhaps fancies Trunks". Simply a double standard.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
^ And there's no reason to have more than that either, is there?
Admit that in 98% of the DB events, the fact that characters would be single or in a couple just doesn't show and doesn't matter.
Characters talk about the fights, talk about the mythologies, talk about strategies... Romance is just a vague idea that was barely exploited with Gohan and Videl and that is mostly exploited by Vegeta and Bulma on very few moments.
Put on a random episode to someone who doesn't watch Dragon Ball and ask him who is single or not and who is with who: unlike most TV shows, he's not about to have answers anytime soon given how sparse moments or dialogues involving hints of romance are.
So, we don't need it, we don't need more than we usually have on that matter: almost nothing and mostly casual hints and dialogues about "oh, by the way, I have a husband/wife/kid and you'll never get to really see what romance is like in our couple other than the fact I'm saying it and the fact that I get mad about them getting hit just like I get mad when my mere friends get hit".
What would it all bring? Does Dragon Ball need a sense of variety to bring a sense of realism and real life like a live-action TV show whereas it clearly takes place in an irrealistic world where some animals walk and talk in the middle of a city? Nope, no use there.
Then what, would it be to carry a message to the viewers? Does Dragon Ball usually carry messages about our society? Nope, it carries messages about yourself, and how it's good to get better.
Then, perhaps it would help with a character's psychology and reason to be? Nope, Dragon Ball doesn't rely on love stories for characters' motivations in life.
In other words, do we need more than just showing - with everything so far - that it's a possibility that doesn't seem to be rejected? Nope.
All in all, it would just likely feel like something forced to meet a certain quota. Just like if after Buddhism influences, the story suddenly included a character that's Jewish for example.
No need, Dragon Ball is a show that is simple enough to be fitting for everybody without needing to catter to specific audiences when the fictionnal universe doesn't fit with serious reflections of our society to begin with and is all-encompassing enough to please everyone anyway.
Admit that in 98% of the DB events, the fact that characters would be single or in a couple just doesn't show and doesn't matter.
Characters talk about the fights, talk about the mythologies, talk about strategies... Romance is just a vague idea that was barely exploited with Gohan and Videl and that is mostly exploited by Vegeta and Bulma on very few moments.
Put on a random episode to someone who doesn't watch Dragon Ball and ask him who is single or not and who is with who: unlike most TV shows, he's not about to have answers anytime soon given how sparse moments or dialogues involving hints of romance are.
So, we don't need it, we don't need more than we usually have on that matter: almost nothing and mostly casual hints and dialogues about "oh, by the way, I have a husband/wife/kid and you'll never get to really see what romance is like in our couple other than the fact I'm saying it and the fact that I get mad about them getting hit just like I get mad when my mere friends get hit".
What would it all bring? Does Dragon Ball need a sense of variety to bring a sense of realism and real life like a live-action TV show whereas it clearly takes place in an irrealistic world where some animals walk and talk in the middle of a city? Nope, no use there.
Then what, would it be to carry a message to the viewers? Does Dragon Ball usually carry messages about our society? Nope, it carries messages about yourself, and how it's good to get better.
Then, perhaps it would help with a character's psychology and reason to be? Nope, Dragon Ball doesn't rely on love stories for characters' motivations in life.
In other words, do we need more than just showing - with everything so far - that it's a possibility that doesn't seem to be rejected? Nope.
All in all, it would just likely feel like something forced to meet a certain quota. Just like if after Buddhism influences, the story suddenly included a character that's Jewish for example.
No need, Dragon Ball is a show that is simple enough to be fitting for everybody without needing to catter to specific audiences when the fictionnal universe doesn't fit with serious reflections of our society to begin with and is all-encompassing enough to please everyone anyway.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
You're under oblivious impression that exclusion of gay characters (outside idiotic stereotype roles) is somehow a default and natural "state of the universe". You think Dragon Ball (or any other fictional universe created in XX century) was made in context vacuum? Nope. All art, literature & entertainment is influenced by the world their creators live in. Dragon Ball and Toriyama are no different. If the world was highly tolerant of homosexuality in XX century, you think Toriyama would only feature them as jokes in characters of General Blue or Otokosuki? No, even if the joke characters appeared he would likely have "standard" gay guys too just like he has "standard" straight guys like Gohan next to straight caricature like Kamesennin.Cold Skin wrote:What would it all bring? Does Dragon Ball need a sense of variety to bring a sense of realism and real life like a live-action TV show whereas it clearly takes place in an irrealistic world where some animals walk and talk in the middle of a city?
Then what, would it be to carry a message to the viewers? Does Dragon Ball usually carry messages about our society? Nope, it carries messages about yourself, and how it's good to get better.
Then, perhaps it would help with a character's psychology and reason to be? Nope, Dragon Ball doesn't rely on love stories for characters' motivations in life.
In other words, do we need more than just showing - with everything so far - that it's a possibility that doesn't seem to be rejected? Nope.
All in all, it would just likely feel like something forced to meet a certain quota. Just like if after Buddhism influences, the story suddenly included a character that's Jewish for example.
No need, Dragon Ball is a show that is simple enough to be fitting for everybody without needing to catter to specific audiences when the fictionnal universe doesn't fit with serious reflections of our society to begin with and is all-encompassing enough to please everyone anyway.
And the notion that in order to be all-encompasing a fictional universe should actually exclude all that's different and only focus on the "default" is just nonsensical. Also, don't try comparing religion to innate biological characteristics. Completly different discussions.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
If the fact that there are no gay characters in a work is supposed to be a flaw, then many works are majorly flawed.
And then the same can be said for those who have to wear glasses (we NEED to have a character wearing glasses or they will feel rejected), for albinos (we NEED albino characters in every work, for otherwise it means they are "excluded" of course)...
And God forbid that there be no girls in the Final Fantasy XV team of heroes, of course, cause girls NEED to be present all the time in a fictional group of heroes...
Seriously, not every single category of people needs to be represented in a work.
For people should feel represented only by the fact that there are humans, and that's the only category needed. "Human". No matter what you're like, no matter what you are, no matter what you chose.
You are ALREADY represented in Dragon Ball no matter who you are.
Blond, tall, dark, lean, gay, dwarf, etc... Who cares if some of those are missing as long as the plot doesn't require it?
If they can be slipped in as another variation of the kinds of people you can meet in that fictionnal universe, good, all the better.
If they are not, so be it, doesn't take anything away from the narrative or universe.
And then the same can be said for those who have to wear glasses (we NEED to have a character wearing glasses or they will feel rejected), for albinos (we NEED albino characters in every work, for otherwise it means they are "excluded" of course)...
And God forbid that there be no girls in the Final Fantasy XV team of heroes, of course, cause girls NEED to be present all the time in a fictional group of heroes...
Seriously, not every single category of people needs to be represented in a work.
For people should feel represented only by the fact that there are humans, and that's the only category needed. "Human". No matter what you're like, no matter what you are, no matter what you chose.
You are ALREADY represented in Dragon Ball no matter who you are.
Blond, tall, dark, lean, gay, dwarf, etc... Who cares if some of those are missing as long as the plot doesn't require it?
If they can be slipped in as another variation of the kinds of people you can meet in that fictionnal universe, good, all the better.
If they are not, so be it, doesn't take anything away from the narrative or universe.
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OutlawTorn
- Regular
- Posts: 589
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:32 pm
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villains
The mindset for Star Trek Generations was to include as many of the original series cast as possible, to serve as a passing of the torch to the Next Generation cast for the features. Both Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley declined the offer and Nimoy explained his decision as the character of Spock serving no purpose in the story. Basically, there was no point to have Spock in the movie JUST to have Spock in the movie.
While I am not personally opposed to any of the proposed types of characters being included, but I don't believe it should be a case of "we don't have x-type of character, we should have x-type of character just because." If x-type of character is essential to the story being told, by all means but if it's a case of x-type of character being included just so they can laugh at how different they are, I'd have to say no thanks.
I guess you'd really have to ask is why is it important that the villain be trans/gay/bi-sexual? Is it a motive for their actions or why the heroes are opposing them? That doesn't really sound like it would be a positive representation of that demographic. I think if such a character were to be introduced, it would have a far better chance for a positive representation if it was a heroic character. But, in the end, it comes down to would such a character be included just for the sake of including such a character or does it enhance the story?
I hope I managed to make any sense with that.
While I am not personally opposed to any of the proposed types of characters being included, but I don't believe it should be a case of "we don't have x-type of character, we should have x-type of character just because." If x-type of character is essential to the story being told, by all means but if it's a case of x-type of character being included just so they can laugh at how different they are, I'd have to say no thanks.
I guess you'd really have to ask is why is it important that the villain be trans/gay/bi-sexual? Is it a motive for their actions or why the heroes are opposing them? That doesn't really sound like it would be a positive representation of that demographic. I think if such a character were to be introduced, it would have a far better chance for a positive representation if it was a heroic character. But, in the end, it comes down to would such a character be included just for the sake of including such a character or does it enhance the story?
I hope I managed to make any sense with that.
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Captain Space
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1520
- Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
The thing is, no-one's saying there must be a character of this kind. The point is that it would be fine if there was.Cold Skin wrote:If the fact that there are no gay characters in a work is supposed to be a flaw, then many works are majorly flawed.
And then the same can be said for those who have to wear glasses (we NEED to have a character wearing glasses or they will feel rejected), for albinos (we NEED albino characters in every work, for otherwise it means they are "excluded" of course)...
And God forbid that there be no girls in the Final Fantasy XV team of heroes, of course, cause girls NEED to be present all the time in a fictional group of heroes...
Seriously, not every single category of people needs to be represented in a work.
For people should feel represented only by the fact that there are humans, and that's the only category needed. "Human". No matter what you're like, no matter what you are, no matter what you chose.
You are ALREADY represented in Dragon Ball no matter who you are.
Blond, tall, dark, lean, gay, dwarf, etc... Who cares if some of those are missing as long as the plot doesn't require it?
If they can be slipped in as another variation of the kinds of people you can meet in that fictionnal universe, good, all the better.
If they are not, so be it, doesn't take anything away from the narrative or universe.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
The problem is that the gay/bi/trans community is a small minority. There could a seamless character like that but for what purpose? It serves no purpose for the story or anything else in the series, so even a seamless inclusion of such a character would feel more like "agenda" than anything else.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
^ Yes, that's exactly it.
It's a very good thing when you can include such characters seamlessly in a work, but given what Dragon Ball is and how it works to unfold plots, it would be very hard for it to seem like a natural decision. Most fans would automatically feel that "Dragon Ball is going way out of its way just to follow some popular trend, some modern standards or out of neccessity". Which is exacty the kind of reactions you don't want, it automatically cancels the wanted "seamless" feel and all the good that such an inclusion can usually do. You want people to be perfectly non-reactive to such an inclusion just like they are with anyone else, like it's just another usual piece of the puzzle, you don't want them to have some special "this is unusual" or "this feels out of place / forced for specific reasons" reaction.
It's a very good thing when you can include such characters seamlessly in a work, but given what Dragon Ball is and how it works to unfold plots, it would be very hard for it to seem like a natural decision. Most fans would automatically feel that "Dragon Ball is going way out of its way just to follow some popular trend, some modern standards or out of neccessity". Which is exacty the kind of reactions you don't want, it automatically cancels the wanted "seamless" feel and all the good that such an inclusion can usually do. You want people to be perfectly non-reactive to such an inclusion just like they are with anyone else, like it's just another usual piece of the puzzle, you don't want them to have some special "this is unusual" or "this feels out of place / forced for specific reasons" reaction.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
"Default" human does not automatically equal white straight male. Do you understand it? You don't seem to. No, everything doesn't need to be a perfect "mix" representation of the human species. But in a series with hundreds of characters, 500+ manga chapters and TV episodes, it sure looks like a good place to switch it up sometimes. Or to balance idiotic stereotypes featured earlier without any normal counterparts. Toriyama made a concious decision to have Blue/Otokosuki because it was "super funny" in the 80s/90s to ridicule gays. If he did that, why not make a concious decision now to have an average gay Joe now?Cold Skin wrote: For people should feel represented only by the fact that there are humans, and that's the only category needed. "Human". No matter what you're like, no matter what you are, no matter what you chose.
Agenda was the concious effort to exclude/ridicule minorities in previous century. Bringing them in now would just be normalizing unnatural exclusionrereboy wrote:The problem is that the gay/bi/trans community is a small minority. There could a seamless character like that but for what purpose? It serves no purpose for the story or anything else in the series, so even a seamless inclusion of such a character would feel more like "agenda" than anything else.
Bulma's 50 birthday party, Trunks brings his girlfirend, Bra brings her girlfriend. Everyone ignores them and raves how Goku is #1. What an impossible task of including gay characer, where's my Pulitzer prize.Cold Skin wrote: It's a very good thing when you can include such characters seamlessly in a work, but given what Dragon Ball is and how it works to unfold plots, it would be very hard for it to seem like a natural decision.