Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

[DemonRin]

I'm right handed, like 90% of the human species.

CLEARLY then, the Legend of Zelda games pre-Skyward Sword were part of the Radical Southpaw Agenda to normalize the sinful use of the WRONG hand.

For serious tho, the big issue always comes back to seeing LGBT people as not "People" rather seeing us as an "Agenda".

I have to constantly put up with watching movies and TV shows that have nothing but negative portrayals of me and who I am. I'm the butt of SO many jokes on TV and in movies it's not even funny. Dragonball is actually no exception considering the General Blue and Otokosuki stuff.

Wanting inclusion isn't about inserting an "Agenda" it's about wanting to see ourselves represented CORRECTLY in our favorite media. Toriyama has clearly made it obvious that Gay people exist in the Dragonball Universe, but so far every single character he's shown has been an offensive stereotype. It'd be nice, like REALLY nice, if he could also say "Hey, there are normal gay people too".

And that's not even talking about inserting a Trans character, which is what I'd really like to see.

[rereboy]

Following the norm would be having 1 gay character for every 20 straight ones. And we're not even talking about as "high" proportions as that but rather ANY first non-idiotic-stereotype gay/bi/trans character. Also, really, comparsion to shoes fetish?

No, that would be trying to make the series as faithful as possible to the make-up of the people of the real world. Like I said, unless that's a specific objective of the series, such a faithful representation is not the purpose of any series. The norm is simply what's most normal, which would be straight relationships.

Also, what about shoes fetish? Just in what way are they incomparable or worse than any other sexual preference (that is not harmful to anyone)? You speak of love and your posts seem progressive and supportive of minorities, and yet when something a little more weird and less usual in terms of sexual preferences pops up, you treat it like its worth less than others...

[DemonRin]

Also, what about shoes fetish? Just in what way are they incomparable or worse than any other sexual preference (that is not harmful to anyone)? You speak of love and your posts seem progressive and supportive of minorities, and yet when something a little more weird and less usual in terms of sexual preferences pops up, you treat it like its worth less than others...

Being gay is a sexual orientation, you are born that way and it's invariably how you are. It's normal and natural to be up front and public about being gay, IE holding hands with or kissing your partner in public.

A Fetish, such as a Shoe Fetish, is an exclusively bedroom style thing that NOBODY discusses in public.

Your insistence that they are the same is insulting.

[Basaku]

No, that would be trying to make the series as faithful as possible

In other words, your favourite word, the norm of approx. 95% being straight and %5 being gay.

Also, what about shoes fetish? Just in what way are they incomparable or worse than any other sexual preference (that is not harmful to anyone)? You speak of love and your posts seem progressive and supportive of minorities, and yet when something a little more weird and less usual in terms of sexual preferences pops up, you treat it like its worth less than others...

Fetishes =/= sexual orientation. No point even going further on this subject, if you don't understand the difference then you either simply lack rather basic common knowledge or just wanted to use "ohh you're tolerant of this but not of that?" tactic.

[DemonRin]

Fetishes =/= sexual orientation. No point even going further on this subject, if you don't understand the difference then you either simply lack rather basic common knowledge or just wanted to use "ohh you're tolerant of this but not of that?" tactic.

I think it's more of the basic stereotyping that happens in people's minds.

They can accept and fully be fine with the concept of a straight person being a well-rounded person and their heterosexuality having many facets that play a factor in their day to day lives that are not exclusively related to sex. IE, a straight person sometimes is attracted to a person of the opposite sex. They may meet and talk and date. Then they may be in a committed relationship in which they may do things OTHER than sex with their partner like go do fun things, go on vacations, move in together, get married. Love and care for each other even if they stop having sex eventually. This is all ok and a thing that Heterosexual people naturally do.

But a lot of people can't wrap their heads around the idea that gay people are EXACTLY THE SAME. They can't separate the Sex aspect of being gay. To them, "Gay" is a sex term and all it means is Gay sex and nothing else.

In this analogy, the concept that gay people ALSO are attracted to people of the opposite sex, talk, date, enter committed relationships, go on vacations, move in together, get married, love and care for each other? Yeah, that's not a thing. Being gay is all about SEX SEX SEX!!!! So obviously it's basically a fetish.

[rereboy]

Being gay is a sexual orientation, you are born that way and it's invariably how you are. It's normal and natural to be up front and public about being gay, IE holding hands with or kissing your partner in public.

A Fetish, such as a Shoe Fetish, is an exclusively bedroom style thing that NOBODY discusses in public.

Your insistence that they are the same is insulting.

I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer of not discriminating anyone based on their sexual preferences as long as they aren't harmful to anyone, and if you are insulted by the simple adherence to that principle, I don't agree at all with you. If you want to discriminate and designate certain preferences as just fetishes and thus less worthy of consideration than others, that's your business.

[soulnova]

Toriyama has clearly made it obvious that Gay people exist in the Dragonball Universe, but so far every single character he's shown has been an offensive stereotype. It'd be nice, like REALLY nice, if he could also say "Hey, there are normal gay people too".

I agree.

I still think Trunks would be the EASIEST to out as bi.

Relevant:

http://stupidoomdoodles.tumblr.com/post ... -came-over

[DemonRin]

I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer of not discriminating anyone based on their sexual preferences as long as they aren't harmful to anyone, and if you are insulted by the simple adherence to that principle, I don't agree at all with you. If you want to discriminate and designate certain preferences as just fetishes and thus worthy of consideration than others, that's your business.

Are you SERIOUSLY doing this?! I mean really? This screams you just trying to do a "Gotcha" moment where you're doing a false equivalency to try to make us look like bigots.


Listen. Here is the difference between a Fetish and Sexual Orientation.

One is a thing that's ONLY APPLICABLE WHEN SEX IS INVOLVED and the other is A PART OF A PERSON'S EVERY DAY LIFE.

Nobody is saying Shoe fetishes are BAD, just that they are NOT EQUATABLE TO SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

Name me one way, ONE WAY, that a Shoe fetish may factor into a person's every day life outside of the context of having sex. Name me ONE.

Oh my god I've never been so insulted....

[rereboy]

Name me one way, ONE WAY, that a Shoe fetish may factor into a person's every day life outside of the context of having sex. Name me ONE.

A guy wearing women shoes or always carrying women shoes with him always because he has that preference.

[DemonRin]

A guy wearing women shoes or always carrying women shoes with him always because he has that preference.

That's a fashion choice, not a sexual orientation.

You CLEARLY don't know what you're talking about and are either completely ignorant to this topic, or you're being facetious in an attempt to make our argument look bad.

I'm ignoring this from here on out, I've been insulted enough for today thank you.

[rereboy]

That's a fashion choice, not a sexual orientation.

So now you dictate what it means for someone who has that sexual preference to be able to wear those shoes? Okay.

I wonder if it's you who should be insulted, or people who have sexual preferences not towards people, but towards objects, like shoes.

I think it's more of the basic stereotyping that happens in people's minds.

They can accept and fully be fine with the concept of a straight person being a well-rounded person and their heterosexuality having many facets that play a factor in their day to day lives that are not exclusively related to sex. IE, a straight person sometimes is attracted to a person of the opposite sex. They may meet and talk and date. Then they may be in a committed relationship in which they may do things OTHER than sex with their partner like go do fun things, go on vacations, move in together, get married. Love and care for each other even if they stop having sex eventually. This is all ok and a thing that Heterosexual people naturally do.

But a lot of people can't wrap their heads around the idea that gay people are EXACTLY THE SAME. They can't separate the Sex aspect of being gay. To them, "Gay" is a sex term and all it means is Gay sex and nothing else.

In this analogy, the concept that gay people ALSO are attracted to people of the opposite sex, talk, date, enter committed relationships, go on vacations, move in together, get married, love and care for each other? Yeah, that's not a thing. Being gay is all about SEX SEX SEX!!!! So obviously it's basically a fetish.

That just means that a gay couple has, typically, a much more lively social component to their sexual preference, which I don't deny, nor did I ever deny.

And that does probably make them more vulnerable to discrimination because they are typically more visible, socially.

But the discussion is not about who is more vulnerable. Its about inclusion in series. And, in that aspect, there's no real difference. If there's no point in them being in the series, it feels more like agenda than anything else, generally. In some cases, their inclusion can be seamless, but in cases like Dragon Ball, not really.

[soulnova]

We are talking about people and their romantic/sexual relationships with other people. Let's keep it at that, shall we?

[rereboy]

We are talking about people and their romantic/sexual relationships with other people. Let's keep it at that, shall we?

Actually, we were talking about the inclusion of sexual minorities in series. That is the subject of this topic. For example, a transsexual doesn't even imply any relationship with other people, it's more about that person's own identification than it is about his or her's relationships.

[TripleRach]

I don't think that I'm really qualified to get into the scientific and social distinctions between sexual orientation and fetishes.

But I do know that the comparison is upsetting people, and the argument appears to be going in circles anyway, so let's drop that particular tangent.

[rereboy]

That seems to happen in general in this topic. Perhaps it would be better be locked.

[Basaku]

Perhaps it would be better be locked.

Sure seems to be the goal of many people

[rereboy]

I seriously doubt that anyone has that goal. People just get caught in discussion due to their different viewpoints. Most of the time, people's opinion aren't even that different, but disagreement regarding one detail or one point is enough to rattle many people.

[soulnova]

Perhaps it would be better be locked.

I seriously doubt that anyone has that goal.

Am I the only one getting mixed signals here?

[rereboy]

Perhaps it would be better be locked.

I seriously doubt that anyone has that goal.

Am I the only one getting mixed signals here?

What? Don't misunderstand my posts. I was just wondering if, perhaps, to prevent constant discussions, it would be better for the forum that the thread was locked. That doesn't meant that I, personally, have personal interest in this topic or have the goal to lock the topic. I don't particularly care if its locked or not. Either way its fine by me.

Today, people seem to be taking what I say the wrong way

[Bullza]

Threads like this show why the inclusion of gay characters is a bad idea. It reaffirms what I first said about it only causing more trouble than it's worth.

There's nothing to gain going this route, it won't gain any fans and it won't make it a better series. Japan is one of the least accepting countries for homosexuality, that's one why you'll have comics like One Piece and Bleach that portray transexuals and gays in a stereotypical comic relief manner and there will be no controversy because they don't really do the whole PC thing.

Any gay characters they put in there would only be along similar lines which would then create more arguments between those who find it offensive and those who'd defend it.

Toriyama including a non stereotypical character into the story seemlessly is never going to happen. It's not worth the trouble when it's something that nobody really cares about to begin with.