Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

[rereboy]

Threads like this show why the inclusion of gay characters is a bad idea. It reaffirms what I first said about it only causing more trouble than it's worth.

There's nothing to gain going this route, it won't gain any fans and it won't make it a better series. Japan is one of the least accepting countries for homosexuality, that's one why you'll have comics like One Piece and Bleach that portray transexuals and gays in a stereotypical comic relief manner and there will be no controversy because they don't really do the whole PC thing.

Any gay characters they put in there would only be along similar lines which would then create more arguments between those who find it offensive and those who'd defend it.

Toriyama including a non stereotypical character into the story seemlessly is never going to happen. It's not worth the trouble when it's something that nobody really cares about to begin with.

While that's probably true, I don't agree that a series should stop itself from doing something purely due to possible reactions to it if it actually has a point with it.

What is more important to me is what matters for the series itself. And for Dragon Ball, there is no point in this kind of inclusion because it would never be actually seamless, and there would be no point to it within the series, imo.

[Basaku]

Threads like this show why the inclusion of gay characters is a bad idea. It reaffirms what I first said about it only causing more trouble than it's worth.

There's nothing to gain going this route, it won't gain any fans and it won't make it a better series. Japan is one of the least accepting countries for homosexuality, that's one why you'll have comics like One Piece and Bleach that portray transexuals and gays in a stereotypical comic relief manner and there will be no controversy because they don't really do the whole PC thing.

Any gay characters they put in there would only be along similar lines which would then create more arguments between those who find it offensive and those who'd defend it.

Toriyama including a non stereotypical character into the story seemlessly is never going to happen. It's not worth the trouble when it's something that nobody really cares about to begin with.

To sum up - some people are not very smart and get bothered by presence of gay characters for no good reason thus DB, along with other art/literature/entertainment properties should create material that suits those people.

What is more important to me is what matters for the series itself. And for Dragon Ball, there is no point in this kind of inclusion because it would never be actually seamless, and there would be no point to it within the series, imo.

Then remove all straight relationships as well. Remember when straight love allowed Cell to transform into Perfect form? I do. What's the point of Kamesennin's straight jokes? Cut it out. Ohh wait but it's all part of DB and adds flavour to the show which is NOT a martial arts how-to training video but a visual novel about characters who perform martial arts and their lives, battles, friends, adversaries, motivations, turning points, unexpected events etc. There's also purely 'design' POV - when you got bigger "traits/characteristics palette" for your characters to use, it's just more interesting than the same thing over and over.

[Bullza]

For other series I'd agree but with manga/anime series and the history they have at portraying these kinds of characters, especially in Shonen titles any gay characters they were to include would not be ones that anybody would want anyway.

If DC comics can't incorporate this kind of thing without there being controversy here and there then there's no way Dragon Ball is going to get it right.

[rereboy]

Then remove all straight relationships as well. Remember when straight love allowed Cell to transform into Perfect form? I do. What's the point of Kamesennin's straight jokes? Cut it out. Ohh wait but it's all part of DB and adds flavour to the show which is NOT a martial arts how-to training video but a visual novel about characters who perform martial arts and their lives, battles, friends, adversaries, motivations, turning points, unexpected events etc. There's also purely 'design' POV - when you got bigger "traits/characteristics palette" for your characters to use, it's just more interesting than the same thing over and over.

That just doesn't make sense.

[Eire]

I just wonder why including someone different than heterosexual male of default racial features is still a berserk button for so many people. Suddenly it turns that in our progressive society female/gay/POC protagonist must have an excuse to exist. It reminds me observing female surgeons- they can't be as good as they colleagues, they must be better, every petty mistake will be exacerbated to ridiculous proportions and they must constantly prove that they deserve respect male surgeons take for granted.

Some time ago I've lost my head for Rivers of London and read every talk with author that I could find. The question about race of the protagonist appeared in every one of them, even if author wrote again and again that he just imagined him to be Black Brit and there's no particular agenda nor a plot point about that. Authors of Legend of Aang had a hard time convincing Nickelodeon's executives that they want a brown skinned heroine. So progressive, but not too much.

Chances that Toriyama will make a gay character are next to nothing- he once made a gag that seemed funny back then, he admitted having problems with describing relationships. Yet the very idea that this might be incorporated managed to cause a massive shit storm here.

[Basaku]

For other series I'd agree but with manga/anime series and the history they have at portraying these kinds of characters, especially in Shonen titles any gay characters they were to include would not be ones that anybody would want anyway.

If DC comics can't incorporate this kind of thing without there being controversy here and there then there's no way Dragon Ball is going to get it right.

So maintaining negative status quo is what should be done?

That just doesn't make sense.

No worries, I'll help you. Which part of "love is relevant to DB and has played a role in the show, both as a serious plot device and comic relief" you didn't understand? Or was it the part about the cast of characters being more interesting when they're more diverse? You know, having Bulma in the cast for example instead of just 75 Son Gokus

[rereboy]

No worries, I'll help you. Which part of "love is relevant to DB and has played a role in the show, both as a serious plot device and comic relief" you didn't understand? Or was it the part about the cast of characters being more interesting when they're more diverse? You know, having Bulma in the cast for example instead of just 75 Son Gokus

The part about if it doesn't include other relationships besides straight relationships, straight relationships should be removed, and so on.

The author of Dragon Ball wasn't trying to represent all the kinds of people and relationships that exist. In fact, he doesn't even focus on that. So, the relationships that he does have in the series, end up being the most usual kind in his eyes, aka straight relationships. That's basically it.

You are basically arguing diversity for diversity's sake, aka agenda for diversity. I prefer that diversity flows naturally from the story or has a point, that's all. I'm not really a fan of things that fell like agenda, even though that kind of positive agenda is better than the negative agenda of the past.

[Basaku]

The part about if it doesn't include other relationships besides straight relationships, straight relationships should be removed, and so on.

You made it into an argument that homosexuality is not relevant to DB. If it's not relevant to DB, then neither would heterosexuality be.

You are basically arguing diversity for diversity's sake, aka agenda for diversity. I prefer that diversity flows naturally from the story or has a point, that's all.

Why does diversity have to have a specific point but non-diversity doesn't need it and what's more, should be assumed default lol? Diversity is the natural state, we're diverse species.

[rereboy]

You made it into an argument that homosexuality is not relevant to DB. If it's not relevant to DB, then neither would heterosexuality be.

Like I said, that just doesn't make sense.

Why does diversity have to have a specific point but non-diversity doesn't need it and what's more, should be assumed default lol? Diversity is the natural state, we're diverse species.

And it wasn't the purpose of dragon ball to portray all the diversity that real humans have. In the diversity that it does include, the author simply didn't feel it was relevant to include a diverse sexual relationship, so he didn't.

[Bullza]

So maintaining negative status quo is what should be done?

There is no negative status quo because nobody complains about it or even cares about it being an issue in a series about fighting aliens in the first place.

What should be done is letting the series continue doing what it's been doing to great success for the last 30 years and Toriyama not shoe horning in a character that will not make the series any better or more popular just for the sake of being politically correct.

[Basaku]

Like I said, that just doesn't make sense.

You know exactly what I'm talking about, you just don't wanna answer. Love/romantic relationships/sexuality have been present in DB in multiple ways and varrying levels of significance. If it fit for heterosexuality, it can fit for homosexuality just as well.

And it wasn't the purpose of dragon ball to portray all the diversity that real humans have. In the diversity that it does include, the author simply didn't feel it was relevant to include a diverse sexual relationship, so he didn't.

And what is the purpouse of DB not to portray diversity? If Toriyama writes adult Bra or Goten to be gay just 'cause, what exactly is gonna be your complaint?

There is no negative status quo because nobody complains about it or even cares about it being an issue in a series about fighting aliens in the first place.

What should be done is letting the series continue doing what it's been doing to great success for the last 30 years and Toriyama not shoe horning in a character that will not make the series any better or more popular just for the sake of being politically correct.

What should be done is letting the series do what it wants instead of listening to threats of outrage based on unresonabale objections to gay/bi/trans characters. The series and Toriyama definitely don't need people to shoe horn in their ilogical wish to not see gay/bi/trans characters if that's what he or Toei feels like doing.

[rereboy]

You know exactly what I'm talking about, you just don't wanna answer. Love/romantic relationships/sexuality have been present in DB in multiple ways and varrying levels of significance. If it fit for heterosexuality, it can fit for homosexuality just as well.

No, I really don't. I fail to see why all straight relations should be removed if all other possible sexual relationships aren't included.

And what is the purpouse of DB not to portray diversity? If Toriyama writes adult Bra or Goten to be gay just 'cause, what exactly is gonna be your complaint?

What are you talking about? Dragon Ball has diversity and it has shown it, but it doesn't have diversity on every possible level and it doesn't have it regarding sexual relationships because it wasn't considered relevant, just like a lot more diverse stuff wasn't.

If Dragon Ball had a gay member of the cast without it feeling like agenda, I wouldn't mind. I just have doubts that it would work without it feeling it that way.

[Basaku]

I fail to see why all straight relations should be removed if all other possible sexual relationships aren't included.

You made it a point that love/relationships is not relevant to DB, therefore they should be all removed. Simple. What exactly do you want from me? It's you who don't consider any of this relevant to DB.

What are you talking about? Dragon Ball has diversity and it has shown it, but it doesn't have diversity on every possible level and it doesn't havê it regarding sexual relationships because it wasn't considered relevant, just line a lot more diverse stuff are

It was considered relevant in idiotic stereotype role - Blue & Otokosuki. The fact that it happened in such context without a normal counterpart is a most likely a result of the society and time the author grew up/worked in. But it's been 20 years since then and a lot has changed. If one of the characters in Super happens to be "average gay Joe", there will be no need for any relevant story point to it. He/she could be gay/bi/trans just because. Just as he/she could be straight just because.

[Bullza]

What should be done is letting the series do what it wants instead of listening to threats of outrage based on unresonabale objections to gay/bi/trans characters.

And it's clear that it's not something they want as it hasn't been done in 30 years of work. In Toei's other major series One Piece the only gay characters there are overly exaggerated drag queens played for laughs. If it's not something they want to do then they shouldn't do it.

Whether the outrage is there or not it would still be there and there'd be no reason for it at all when it's not going to gain anything in return.

[Basaku]

And it's clear that it's not something they want as it hasn't been done in 30 years of work. In Toei's other major series One Piece the only gay characters there are overly exaggerated drag queens played for laughs. If it's not something they want to do then they shouldn't do it.

But we're not 30 years ago, the world is not static including Japan and you never know. Besides, One Piece ain't the only anime in the world. Sailor Moon had gay characters in the 90s and its audience was diverse, not just girls as it was initially targeted too.

Whether the outrage is there or not it would still be there and there'd be no reason for it at all when it's not going to gain anything in return.

And what gain, artistic or monetary, is there in continuing the current status quo and only featuring gay characters in shonen as stupid stereotypes? Do you see any guys rushing to buy more One Piece merch as a 'thank you' to Toei for having stereotype draq queens while excluding 'standard' gay characters?

[Adamant]

What? Don't misunderstand my posts. I was just wondering if, perhaps, to prevent constant discussions, it would be better for the forum that the thread was locked. That doesn't meant that I, personally, have personal interest in this topic or have the goal to lock the topic. I don't particularly care if its locked or not. Either way its fine by me.

Today, people seem to be taking what I say the wrong way

Going by the last few pages, it would also be better for the forum if you stopped posting in this thread.

[Bullza]

But we're not 30 years ago, the world is not static including Japan and you never know. Besides, One Piece ain't the only anime in the world.

I'm not talking about 30 years ago but the last 30 years. These series are still going and this kind of thing still hasn't been done in either show. The only depictions they've had of gay or transexual characters has made them appear as joke characters.

It wasn't even that long in One Piece they had a main character running for his life away from a group of gay's that acted as part of his training.

Bleach was another popular anime that had a gay character in it that was a tranny and a joke character. Naruto never had any gay characters either. Fairy Tail is another popular anime whose only character that comes to mind is a weird looking drag queen.

Like I said they don't do this whole politically correct thing like US does.

And what gain, artistic or monetary, is there in continuing the current status quo and only featuring gay characters in shonen as stupid stereotypes?

Well seeing as One Piece's sales doubled and exploded in popularity starting with the story arc that immediately followed the arc that introduced all of the exaggerated gay drag queens then clearly it gained something.

It certainly proved that portraying them as joke characters didn't hurt it that's for sure. Same with the others.

[rereboy]

What? Don't misunderstand my posts. I was just wondering if, perhaps, to prevent constant discussions, it would be better for the forum that the thread was locked. That doesn't meant that I, personally, have personal interest in this topic or have the goal to lock the topic. I don't particularly care if its locked or not. Either way its fine by me.

Today, people seem to be taking what I say the wrong way

Going by the last few pages, it would also be better for the forum if you stopped posting in this thread.

i think that my point was misunderstood.

Listen, there are gay people, bi people, trans people, assexual people, people who are interessed on people but are attracted to objects, people who are only attracted to objects and not people, and so on.

To me, all of them are worthy of the same respect and rights that straight people deserve and I don't discriminate based on their preference/orientation/inclination.

Its true that a gay person will have a social component to their sexuality much different than an asexual person, or a person that is only interested in objects and not people, because that person will develop a social relationship with their partner besides the sexual relationship. That makes them much more visible and thus more vulnerable in a society to discrimination than other cases.

I didn't try to argue against that.

Nonetheless, what was bring discussed was not who was most vulnerable, but the inclusion of sexual minorities in series and my point was that a gay person or a gay couple is not more worthy of inclusion than any other of these cases.

That's all. I don't see why prople should be offended by that.

[rereboy]

You made it a point that love/relationships is not relevant to DB, therefore they should be all removed. Simple. What exactly do you want from me? It's you who don't consider any of this relevant to DB.

I said that diversity in the relationships were not considered relevant, not love and the relationships themselves, and that the series doesn't focus on those issues.

it was considered relevant in idiotic stereotype role - Blue & Otokosuki. The fact that it happened in such context without a normal counterpart is a most likely a result of the society and time the author grew up/worked in. But it's been 20 years since then and a lot has changed. If one of the characters in Super happens to be "average gay Joe", there will be no need for any relevant story point to it. He/she could be gay/bi/trans just because. Just as he/she could be straight just because.

Their stereotypes were considered relevant for humor, not the relationships of those characters.

[TripleRach]

I don't really want to have to stifle the conversation simply because it's becoming repetitive, but this can't go on like this.

I understand the desire to clarify and defend the points you bring up, but if that's all you're doing across multiple posts, it isn't adding much to the conversation. Try to bring something new to the table with each post you make.