Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

[Basaku]

It certainly proved that portraying them as joke characters didn't hurt it that's for sure. Same with the others.

And how it would hurt DB, One Piece or Naruto to have an "avarage gay Joe"?

I said that diversity in the relationships were not considered relevant, not love and the relationships themselves, and that the series doesn't focus on those issues.

Their stereotypes were considered relevant for humor, not the relationships of those characters.

Diversity is not an issue in itself. It would make no difference to the story if #18 was a man and Kuririn was falling in love with him and broke the remote controller.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It seems to me that the privileged majority is ignorant of their privilege as usual, as they regard any characters like themselves as being the default, but the idea of adding any kind of characters that are different from themselves is part of an 'agenda', and not something that would ever naturally occur to an author. No one is asking for half of the cast to be LGBT or to change the orientation of a character with an established orientation already, they're just suggesting maybe introducing one or more new characters who just happen to be LGBT. I'm sure adding a character that just happened to be hetero wouldn't cause them to all start complaining.

As for One Piece, I would like to defend it a bit, because even though the gay character everyone talks about is basically a stereotype based on the Rock Horror Picture Show, at least he's a good guy who helps the protagonists.

[rereboy]

It seems to me that the privileged majority is ignorant of their privilege as usual, as they regard any characters like themselves as being the default, but the idea of adding any kind of characters that are different from themselves is part of an 'agenda', and not something that would ever naturally occur to an author. No one is asking for half of the cast to be LGBT or to change the orientation of a character with an established orientation already, they're just suggesting maybe introducing one or more new characters who just happen to be LGBT. I'm sure adding a character that just happened to be hetero wouldn't cause them to all start complaining.

Not really. For example, if homosexual relationships were the majority of all existing relationships without a doubt, I would have no problem saying that homosexual relationships were the "default" or the "norm" in society. There's a preconception associated with saying that something is not the default, like somehow not being the default is wrong or bad, but I don't think that way. It's not bad or wrong at all, imo. However, I don't deny that it's a minority. And it's perfectly expectable for a series that doesn't focus on these issues to not bother including diversity in its relationships and just have the norm. If a series like Dragon Ball was made in a society in which homosexual relationships were the norm, almost certainly all of its relationships would just reflect the norm and be gay relationships.

I don't really want to have to stifle the conversation simply because it's becoming repetitive, but this can't go on like this.

I understand the desire to clarify and defend the points you bring up, but if that's all you're doing across multiple posts, it isn't adding much to the conversation. Try to bring something new to the table with each post you make.

Sorry, I forgot to include everything in one post and was kind of in a hurry when I posted so I didn't rectify it later. But yeah, my objective was just to clarify things.

[soulnova]

Uh...I can't believe I hadn't thought of this... Has anyone mentioned Whis as a possible gay character?

That could probably be a no brainer. It would not change anything of his already established character.

[Captain Space]

Uh...I can't believe I hadn't thought of this... Has anyone mentioned Whis as a possible gay character?

That could probably be a no brainer. It would not change anything of his already established character.

I think it's been mentioned, and I'd see no problem with it as just one facet of his character.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It seems to me that the privileged majority is ignorant of their privilege as usual, as they regard any characters like themselves as being the default, but the idea of adding any kind of characters that are different from themselves is part of an 'agenda', and not something that would ever naturally occur to an author. No one is asking for half of the cast to be LGBT or to change the orientation of a character with an established orientation already, they're just suggesting maybe introducing one or more new characters who just happen to be LGBT. I'm sure adding a character that just happened to be hetero wouldn't cause them to all start complaining.

Not really. For example, if homosexual relationships were the majority of all existing relationships without a doubt, I would have no problem saying that homosexual relationships were the "default" or the "norm" in society. There's a preconception associated with saying that something is not the default, like somehow not being the default is wrong or bad, but I don't think that way. It's not bad or wrong at all, imo. However, I don't deny that it's a minority. And it's perfectly expectable for a series that doesn't focus on these issues to not bother including diversity in its relationships and just have the norm. If a series like Dragon Ball was made in a society in which homosexual relationships were the norm, almost certainly all of its relationships would just reflect the norm and be gay relationships.

Going by this argument, there's no reason to ever portray non-Asian characters in a Japanese series, or characters with blonde hair, or left-handed characters, or red-haired characters, or characters with any characteristics that aren't the majority. They even have a lot of characters of types that don't exist in real life - that we know of at least - (aliens, talking animals, cyborgs, gods, etc.) so what would be wrong with including a few LGBT characters? I'm not saying they have to be included, just that I don't see a problem if they were, and I find it baffling that so many people are so intent on making up reasons to not include such characters.

[Captain Space]

Think you put the 'end quote' thing in the wrong place, Polyphase Avatron, just a heads-up.

[rereboy]

Going by this argument, there's no reason to ever portray non-Asian characters in a Japanese series, or characters with blonde hair, or left-handed characters, or red-haired characters, or characters with any characteristics that aren't the majority. They even have a lot of characters of types that don't exist in real life - that we know of at least - (aliens, talking animals, cyborgs, gods, etc.) so what would be wrong with including a few LGBT characters? I'm not saying they have to be included, just that I don't see a problem if they were, and I find it baffling that so many people are so intent on making up reasons to not include such characters.

It wouldn't be wrong to include such characters, only I prever smart inclusion over inclusion for inclusion's sake. That's all.

Btw, series include minority things like that to add more variety. And while more variety is generally good it also generally stops being that great when the series just adds variety for variety sake and it doesn't flow naturally, has a point or is seamless. When series seem to be more concerned in proving a point than in having stuff working organically, its not very good. That's the main issue in my view.

[Bullza]

And how it would hurt DB, One Piece or Naruto to have an "avarage gay Joe"?

As I said before Japan doesn't really accept homosexuality, they're not like America and other Western countries that's why they are commonly portrayed as over the top joke characters.

There will always be that homophobic crowd that'll complain about it and then the " oh it's just being done to be PC" crowd. Whether it's justified or not it's only going to cause arguments in the end only to gain nothing in return.

If it's something that Japan don't have a positive opinion of and there's no outcry or controversy over them being treated that way then it wouldn't make sense for them to just suddenly changed what has been working for them.

Batman has a transexual villain = Controversy and apologies happen.

One Piece has a transexual villain = Is a well liked character.

[Weedity]

Personally I don't really think sexuality needs to be included or declared about with the villains. Sexuality didn't really matter before, and it shouldn't really now. There is no need to go "progressive" in a television show about Goku, Z fighters, and action.

First, we had General Blue. Who is obviously homosexual. So there is that. We have already had a homosexual villain.

King Piccolo, who is a-sexual.

Freeza, who to me personally came off kinda homosexual or bisexual. Genderless yes, but just gave me that vibe, especially the English version.

Whis, who comes off rather homosexual himself. Not entirely and peoples opinions may differ, but to me he gives off serious homosexual vibes.

We have never really had a villain who comes up, declares his sexuality or even shows his sexuality that much. We shouldn't now. It's just a show, with villains trying to kill Z-fighters and the world. Personally feel like we don't need to be flaunting around sexuality too much.

I just feel like a villain appearing, declaring he has had a sex change and is now a trans, just feels really off to me in the dbz universe. Nothing against it, just feels...forced or something.

We have had gay and straight characters so far, show seems progressive enough to me.

[Captain Space]

I just feel like a villain appearing, declaring he has had a sex change and is now a trans, just feels really off to me in the dbz universe. Nothing against it, just feels...forced or something.

That would indeed feel forced, which is why no-one has been arguing that such a character should be introduced in so attention-grabbing, flag-waving a manner. Simply that it would be fine to have a character who just is that without constantly calling attention to it.

[funrush]

Uh...I can't believe I hadn't thought of this... Has anyone mentioned Whis as a possible gay character?

That could probably be a no brainer. It would not change anything of his already established character.

This would actually not be bad.

Even the gay character being for comedy relief is totally fine, as long as them being gay isn't the joke.

[soulnova]

Uh...I can't believe I hadn't thought of this... Has anyone mentioned Whis as a possible gay character?

That could probably be a no brainer. It would not change anything of his already established character.

This would actually not be bad.

Even the gay character being for comedy relief is totally fine, as long as them being gay isn't the joke.

Yeah. When the first poster for BoG came out, I couldn't tell if Whis was a man or a woman. After that I was fearing people would make a big deal of his delicate demeanor and appearance, but he turned out to be the strongest being in this universe so, there.

Given most anime shows/mangas seem to be very blunt showing "effeminate=gay", I guess Whis is as good as we will ever get on DB. :V

[Basaku]

As I said before Japan doesn't really accept homosexuality, they're not like America and other Western countries that's why they are commonly portrayed as over the top joke characters.

Not very accurate at all. Japan has always been way less bothered by homosexuality because it never had the Abrahamic religion background which is #1 reason people in the West object. Lack of visibility, knowledge, Japanese culture of mainstream conformity as well as higher "import" of western predujice against homosexuality after Industrial Revolution is why it wasn't widely accepted, but that is changing rapidly. And again, lack of Abrahamic religion issue is why change is happening way easier than in many western countries and why 'controversy' hardly even applies.

[alakazam^]

Not really sure why "minority" is a valid argument when I'm pretty sure no one can prove homosexuality is one, but whatever.

I think most of us understand what kind of series Dragon Ball is and don't really expect a LGBT character to be included to the main roster. That being said, I think most of this discussion stems from some of the arguments used. What kind of argument is saying that a LGBT character should have a point to be included? What point did straight-Kuririn, straight-Tenshinhan, straight-Jiaozi, straight-Goten, etc have? This kind of shows that people aren't as unbiased as they think, and they don't even realize it. I'd bet that if Toriyama pulled a Dumbledore on us, you'd be among those complaining there was nothing pointing to it.

You know, It's kinda funny when you think that you could take Kuririn and #18's relationship in the Cell arc as-is, replace her with #17 and end up with the exact same result. In fact, it might have fleshed his character out a little bit more.

Also, what's so offensive about Blue? I think he was a great villain and was a serious threat. Given that he was created in 80's Japan by a gag mangaka, I'd argue that he was treated respectfully. And effeminate gay men do exist, so...

[Rocketman]

Also, what's so offensive about Blue? I think he was a great villain and was a serious threat. Given that he was created in 80's Japan by a gag mangaka, I'd argue that he was treated respectfully. And effeminate gay men do exist, so...

Manga Blue is fine, if somewhat dated. Anime Blue is a paedophile.

[rereboy]

Not really sure why "minority" is a valid argument when I'm pretty sure no one can prove homosexuality is one, but whatever.

There are various studies and statistics done on the subject. While the results vary, especially when it reflects different regions or when the definitions vary (for example, some only include people that are 100% homosexual, while others include people with homosexual inclination to varying degree), they vary in the order of around 3% to 20% from what I've seen. No statistic or study that I know of has produced a result close to 50% or the majority.

I'd bet that if Toriyama pulled a Dumbledore on us, you'd be among those complaining there was nothing pointing to it.

I really doubt that. Tenshinhan's close relationship with Chaoztu, his seclusion and the fact that him and Lunch never go anywhere, would make people find that not so surprising at all. I've already read jokes/speculation among the fanbase about that, so...

But Dragon Ball doesn't really focus at all in matters of relationships and it doesn't develop it at all. It only shows the bare minimum to give a sense of time going by and people having children. That's what would make it really challenging to make a move like that seem seamless.

Also, Dumbledore being gay is a piece of trivia that isn't present in the books at all. It's just info provided by the author as to what his orientation would be if she had developed it, how she viewed the character in that aspect. If Toriyama did the same towards Tenshinhan, it also wouldn't affect anything present in the manga.

You know, It's kinda funny when you think that you could take Kuririn and #18's relationship in the Cell arc as-is, replace her with #17 and end up with the exact same result. In fact, it might have fleshed his character out a little bit more.

Krillin had already been established as liking women. Of course, he could be bi, or he could be lying, but that require more explanations than what we had with #18.

[TheGreatness25]

I'm just curious how people imagine this being. What would set a gay character apart from a straight character? Dragon Ball isn't about romance, so it's not like there would be a big romance story. At most, a gay character would have someone of the same sex as a husband/wife or whatever. But Dragon Ball not being romance-based, there would be no in-depth relationship between the two. So now you have a character whose ONLY homosexual quality is that he/she has a partner of the same sex, who is a minor character.Unless of course it plays into the comedy somehow, which would become offensive. So really, in what way can a character be homosexual? Lunch could be a lesbian. Just like Chaozu could be homosexual. Hell, Tenshinhan could be homosexual. It does not bring any sort of real grand story to the character because romance is not factored into Dragon Ball and therefore, sexual orientation would not be anything more than a distant background of the character.

I hope I'm making sense. Basically what I'm saying is because DB isn't romance oriented and homosexuality is something that relates to romance, it would not contribute much to a character. And if DB were to take a urn into the romance field, I think it would just ruin the story. So sexual preference wouldn't add much to a character. Yamucha's straight because he had a girlfriend and then chased girls. But none of that was a focus of the story. If he was gay, he'd chase guys. So what? It would be a 30 second filler segment. UNLESS it became such a pivotal part of the character, in which case, it would become a mockery and offensive stereotype if he/she was made to "act" gay.

[Captain Space]

I'm just curious how people imagine this being. What would set a gay character apart from a straight character? Dragon Ball isn't about romance, so it's not like there would be a big romance story. At most, a gay character would have someone of the same sex as a husband/wife or whatever. But Dragon Ball not being romance-based, there would be no in-depth relationship between the two. So now you have a character whose ONLY homosexual quality is that he/she has a partner of the same sex, who is a minor character.Unless of course it plays into the comedy somehow, which would become offensive. So really, in what way can a character be homosexual? Lunch could be a lesbian. Just like Chaozu could be homosexual. Hell, Tenshinhan could be homosexual. It does not bring any sort of real grand story to the character because romance is not factored into Dragon Ball and therefore, sexual orientation would not be anything more than a distant background of the character.

I hope I'm making sense. Basically what I'm saying is because DB isn't romance oriented and homosexuality is something that relates to romance, it would not contribute much to a character. And if DB were to take a urn into the romance field, I think it would just ruin the story. So sexual preference wouldn't add much to a character. Yamucha's straight because he had a girlfriend and then chased girls. But none of that was a focus of the story. If he was gay, he'd chase guys. So what? It would be a 30 second filler segment. UNLESS it became such a pivotal part of the character, in which case, it would become a mockery and offensive stereotype if he/she was made to "act" gay.

Basically...all that anyone's thinking might happen is just something like Yamcha's having a girlfriend and chasing girls. Like you said, it'd just be a background detail, it wouldn't drastically change the story. And...that's okay. That's sort of the point, in fact.

[jda95]

The very existence of Otokosuki tells me exactly how Dragon Ball would treat an LGBT character.

It's a pretty cynical belief to say "no thanks" to representation because you know it's going to be horrible, and yes it is sadly a fact that a majority of Japanese depictions of LGBT people are far from how they would like to be portrayed. There are of course exceptions to the rule - Wandering Son, Sailor Moon, and hell, even Hunter x Hunter have proven that mainstream Japanese anime and manga can have thoughtful and respectful portrayals of LGBT people. If by some miracle occurrence involving a freezing over of Hell and we do get anything half as decent as any of the examples I mentioned, it'd mean the world to me to see my favorite series have progressed to have such representation.

But once again, Otokosuki. I ain't holding my breath.