If you had to choose one major character to die in Super...

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:05 am

Cut out the sarcasm, guys. Have a civil discussion about this, or none at all.

KAiWAi · Post by **KAiWAi** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:45 am

I think Beerus or Whis could die ...
... so the situation could be really perilous for the heroes !!

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:19 am

I can't believe some people think killing off Goku is a good idea. Without Goku, you have no Dragon Ball. It may well be called Dragon Ball, but the story is more about Goku's life, the Dragon Balls have just happened to play a central role in his life.

Beerus-sama · Post by **Beerus-sama** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:32 am

Scott wrote:I can't believe some people think killing off Goku is a good idea. Without Goku, you have no Dragon Ball. It may well be called Dragon Ball, but the story is more about Goku's life, the Dragon Balls have just happened to play a central role in his life.

We had the namek Saga focusing on Gohan, Krillin and Vegeta
The Android Saga was with the Z-Warriors trying to stop them without Goku.
The first episodes of the Buu saga were about Gohan's school life without Goku.

I think we can have a story without him

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:51 am

I don't think anyone is saying to kill off Goku in the first episodes, either. If they're gonna do it, do it either mid-way through the series following TTGL's example or at the end like the Cell arc.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:11 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Gyt Kaliba wrote:I really have to shake my head at Gohan's choice to have a family being decried as "ruined" or "wasted"...
You don't get it man, if Gohan doesn't maintain his title of "strongest unfused character" for the sake of having the title of "strongest unfused character", then he apparently has every redeemable thing about him gone by default.

And that's exactly my issue with the view. Ever since Gohan's introduction, he has been pretty consistently shown as someone who fights because he has to, not because he wants to. That doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy a good sparring session, but he still generally only relies on fighting when he's pushed into it. Not to mention he was only 'the strongest' via the very last bit of the Cell arc and then brought up again in the Boo arc. Everything prior to that he was just a kid with a lot of strength, more than could be expected, but never really presented as the strongest one there. So why only two instances of him being treated as the main hero makes it where so many people seem to think it has to be permanent, is beyond me.

I'll also never understand why who can punch harder is the most important aspect of a character rather than enjoyable personalities and interactions, but whatever floats someone's boat.

But even that is neither here nor there anyway, since even in my original post that ended up being debated by some of the usual suspects, I flat out suggested something that could be used to make Gohan fight relevant again, so...I guess there are some people that you can't please no matter what.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:15 pm

It's not that Gohan's not the strongest anymore, it's the lazy yet almost hateful way they went about it. Fuckin' GT treated Gohan better than bog/faff have.

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:31 pm

Rocketman wrote:It's not that Gohan's not the strongest anymore, it's the lazy yet almost hateful way they went about it. Fuckin' GT treated Gohan better than bog/faff have.

I'm getting real sick of "Gohan's not the strongest" being the excuse as to why some of us are not happy. It'd be like if I labelled people who ignored any Dragon Ball Problem GT had that's similar what the new movies have done, as Toriyama cock suckers. But that'd be horribly mean and wrong. There's a deeper reason for everything usually, so blatantly going "It's cause he ain't the best" or "They'll eat anything made by Toriyama" wouldn't be fair generalizations.

Lord Beerus · Post by **Lord Beerus** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:33 pm

Rocketman wrote:It's not that Gohan's not the strongest anymore, it's the lazy yet almost hateful way they went about it. Fuckin' GT treated Gohan better than bog/faff have.

No, it didn't. It's arguably worse in GT. And much more inexcusable. In GT, Gohan becomes much, much, much stronger than his Z counterpart and he still jobs out to everybody and plays the role of a pawn for the main villain. Motherfuckin Majoob gets better treatment than he does and saves face much better than Gohan. In ROF, at least he actually defeats somebody. It may not be somebody of significance, but at least he was shown to hold his own to a degree. You can't justify Gohan jobbing out to everybody in GT by the virtue that he still kept up with his training and became stronger. He defeats more people in ROF than he does in GT and he's much weaker.

dbzfan7 wrote:I'm getting real sick of "Gohan's not the strongest" being the excuse as to why some of us are not happy. It'd be like if I labelled people who ignored any Dragon Ball Problem GT had that's similar what the new movies have done, as Toriyama cock suckers. But that'd be horribly mean and wrong. There's a deeper reason for everything usually, so blatantly going "It's cause he ain't the best" or "They'll eat anything made by Toriyama" wouldn't be fair generalizations.

I would certainly love to hear the deeper reason.

Cetra · Post by **Cetra** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:39 pm

Oh great, another "GT did things worse, no the movies did worse" debate.

In the end both have their inconsistencies and both can't really be more excused in one show than in the other because it was not made with this over-analyzing thought of a fan in mind.

Oh and GT had a treatment of Gohan that was good enough. He did not win but was chosen by Baby as a fitting vessel for fighting Vegeta and he was at least useful powering up Goku. He also helped Bulma with the spaceship and had his tragic moment with Piccolo. Also while Rildo caught him off-guard (something not worse than Sorbet does to Goku) he at least saved Pan in the process. I do not see any reason to call one thing really much worse than the other because as far as both movies and GT go I have my moments in which I think how absolutely awesome I think they are and then there are those scenes or moments of which I can just shake my head about and have to hold myself back with "its fiction and they can do what they want, even if I do not have to like or dislike it" in mind. That happens for both GT and the movies.

Back to topic: I do not want anyone to die except they are revived.

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:39 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm getting real sick of "Gohan's not the strongest" being the excuse as to why some of us are not happy. It'd be like if I labelled people who ignored any Dragon Ball Problem GT had that's similar what the new movies have done, as Toriyama cock suckers. But that'd be horribly mean and wrong. There's a deeper reason for everything usually, so blatantly going "It's cause he ain't the best" or "They'll eat anything made by Toriyama" wouldn't be fair generalizations.
I would certainly love to hear the deeper reason.

People have pretty much went on and on about it, others have disagreed. That's pretty much sums up the entire debate. This thread isn't really about Gohan, but some in the topic of this thread, others (including me) believe you either kill off Gohan, or give him a send off like Tenshinhan and let Piccolo and whoever surpass him and take his place at this point. We don't like that everything is being stripped from him (Ultimate, Potential, Rage trait, etc which more or less was handed over to Goku and Vegeta now), nor do we like how Vegeta's family is an excuse for him to get stronger, while for Gohan it's to get weaker. Pretty much every decision for him recently has not been beneficial to him. Unless he wakes up and realizes he almost died from slacking off, and that even Goku and Vegeta failed saving earth, then it's all been for nothing. He gets weaker for the sake of it. He comes off horribly careless as several invasions and world threatening events keep happening, and yet he does nothing. His family DIED when earth was blown up. Pan and Videl DIED because Goku and Vegeta couldn't protect the world. He couldn't do shit cause he was too weak. They were lucky Whis could fix things (Also Namek balls but not the point here). Yet he'll probably still count on Goku to protect his family for him.

Earth blows up and the focus is entirely on Bulma's family. Gohan does look troubled as he closes his eyes and winces. Though nothing is brought up about his family. His new born baby from the beginning of the film..none of that is even mentioned. I think it's pretty tragic how the baby of the Son family was just murdered...but nope nothing on that. You'd think since Gohan's family is supposed to be a bigger part of his life that'd leave a bigger impact...but nope hardly anything.

fadeddreams5 · Post by **fadeddreams5** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:24 pm

I don't think anyone here wants Gohan to die. They just want him off-screen or retired to not see him butchered anymore and hold on to the memories of a once great character.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:No, it didn't. It's arguably worse in GT. And much more inexcusable. In GT, Gohan becomes much, much, much stronger than his Z counterpart and he still jobs out to everybody and plays the role of a pawn for the main villain. Motherfuckin Majoob gets better treatment than he does and saves face much better than Gohan. In ROF, at least he actually defeats somebody. It may not be somebody of significance, but at least he was shown to hold his own to a degree. You can't justify Gohan jobbing out to everybody in GT by the virtue that he still kept up with his training and became stronger. He defeats more people in ROF than he does in GT and he's much weaker.

It's more respectful for Gohan to lose despite being prepared, then for him to lose because he's lazy, worthless, and somehow 'mysteriously' lost his Ultimate state.

OutlawTorn · Post by **OutlawTorn** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:14 pm

I guess I would have to say Goku.

It would eliminate all of the Goku-related tropes in the series and maybe force a bit more creativity instead of "villain overpowers heroes, Goku arrives/fuses with Vegeta to save the day" format. But Goku has died and come back as often as Optimus Prime, I don't know if it would really have much of an impact in the grand scheme of things.

soulnova · Post by **soulnova** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:24 pm

This would have to be set after EoZ then. For permanent deaths we need the following:

Kill Dende/Destroy Earth Dragon Balls.
Kill the rest of the Namekians/Namek Dragon Balls.
Kill Whis or somehow neutralize his 3 minute rewind. Break his staff maybe?

Once that's set and go and we have already established whatever threat they are facing was able to take on Whis himself, then no one is safe.

My personal suggestion to kill off would be the following:
Gohan
Beerus

If they kill Gohan it would server to force Pan to take this fight seriously personal... perhaps even turning her SSj if she's a little older already. Although it would mirror early DBZ with Goku dying and Gohan having to train, but I personally don't have a problem with that. Gohan's development arc as a character has come to a still.

If somehow they manage to kill Beerus it could force Whis to start looking for the next God of Destruction. Heh, maybe Whis can make a tournament of something similar to decide who will be the next God of Destruction. Anyone can enter... even whoever killed Beerus in the first place. That would follow DB's pattern nicely and the stakes would be high.

While I agree Goku would "have to go" somehow, I really don't believe Toei would kill him permanentely EVER. Even in GT it is implied he lives on with the Dragon Balls. I would totally agree with taking him out for most of the series. Trap him, mind-control him, make him sick, whatever.

Ushabtis · Post by **Ushabtis** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:11 pm

I'd say Nerf or get rid of the dragon balls. In the beginning of the series they were alright because they weren't all that powerful. It just when these things are literally bring back the entire universe of dead people and bringing back planets on top of planets back its just silly.

iirc the elder Kai was complaining about how Goku and friends were breaking the natural order of the worlds with the dragon balls and shouldn't be allowed to do what they were doing. Of course Goku offers him porn and he drops the entire subject but I'd like to see the Dragon Balls become illegal or something in the Universe. Like a Super god comes down to take the dragon balls from earth. Might be an interesting way to start of Super.
---
I don't know why people want Gohan to die, just because he's gotten weak? Why not have him completely removed from the Z fighters and have just be a stay at home dad while still being a scholar? Its better then killing him off because we're slightly disappointed in him.

soulnova wrote:If they kill Gohan it would server to force Pan to take this fight seriously personal...

Wouldn't pan like 3 or 4... We already had Gohan fighting space aliens at the age of 4 or 5 and personally I found that kind of silly. But they did set him up as some super prodigy from his first battle appearance. If Pan does that too that'd kind be rinse and repeat? Plus iirc she was strong but not that strong by the end of Z when Goku and crew went the the World Tournament in the final episodes of Z.

soulnova · Post by **soulnova** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:15 pm

Ushabtis wrote:
soulnova wrote:If they kill Gohan it would server to force Pan to take this fight seriously personal...
If Pan does that too that'd kind be rinse and repeat? Plus iirc she was strong but not that strong by the end of Z when Goku and crew went the the World Tournament in the final episodes of Z.

I believe Gohan was 5 when the saiyan's came? 5.5? Personally I wouldn't mind that bit kind of repeating itself. The main difference here is that while Gohan had his rage hidden power, Pan shows much more promise in her "fighting spirit". She seems to openly embrace fighting unlike Gohan.

If she keeps up her training with Goku+Uub, then killing Gohan might be the push she needs to get SSj. The only other option would be Goku dying, but Toei would never keep him permanently dead. Soooo.....

Ushabtis · Post by **Ushabtis** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:29 pm

instead of killing Gohan, why not kill Videl and/or Chichi? I think it'd have the same affect and its two birds with one stone. and why not make Gohan Piccolo 2.0 with Pan and they train and stuff.

soulnova · Post by **soulnova** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:10 pm

Ushabtis wrote:instead of killing Gohan, why not kill Videl and/or Chichi? I think it'd have the same affect and its two birds with one stone. and why not make Gohan Piccolo 2.0 with Pan and they train and stuff.

Sadly... I don't consider Videl or ChiChi major characters as they are right now.

Gohan never trained Goten until it was time for the tournament.

Even Future Gohan waited almost 12 years before training Trunks properly. He's not a teacher material for Pan. Sans Vegeta, only Goku can fill the role of training her and push her to her limit.

Ushabtis · Post by **Ushabtis** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:43 pm

well you don't have to be a major character to die to advance plot.

Kanzenshuu

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