Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
I feel both before and after leveraging the RoSaT, the kids are individually below Cell Jr. / Piccolo.
Even if we assume that they are presumably a lot closer to that level after their training, it's hard to believe that they've actually managed to surpass Cell Jr. / Piccolo
It may be hard to believe, but everything in the manga strongly implies that the kids are above Cell Jr. and Piccolo tier; especially after the leaving the ROSAT. As far as I'm concerned, with how their strength is portrayed in the manga, it goes like this:
SSJ Goten (Pre-ROSAT/Post-ROSAT) > SSJ Teen Gohan > Piccolo (Majin Boo arc)
In regards to Base Gotenks, I didn't think that he was Super Buu tier until he went SSJ3.
Even though Trunks states that in their base form as Gotenks they could defeat Super Boo?
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
supercat wrote:
How is it ridiculous? What feats has Muk ever displayed to show that he's above the fighters from Dragon Ball let alone GT?
Muk can absorb kinetic energy attacks if you watch the video, and also been shown to spread his body surface area wide enough to engulf and suffocate his opponent. Any version of Goku would get his ass kicked.
Well I guess it depends whether or not Muk has a limit to his energy absorption ability.
While his feat against Bellsprout was impressive, I find it hard to believe that Muk would be able to showcase that same caliber of impressiveness against Goku. It seems very plausible that one planet busting ki blast from Goku would completely obliterate Muk.
As for increasing his body surface, I don't think he can leverage this quickly enough to trap Goku before getting blasted away. All Goku has to do is fly up and fire a ki blast powerful enough to overcome any energy absorption technique Muk may have.
supercat wrote:
How is it ridiculous? What feats has Muk ever displayed to show that he's above the fighters from Dragon Ball let alone GT?
Muk can absorb kinetic energy attacks if you watch the video, and also been shown to spread his body surface area wide enough to engulf and suffocate his opponent. Any version of Goku would get his ass kicked.
Muk is also weak against Ground attacks, which are, in fact, kinetic.
SSJ4 Goku
(Watch video to see how overpowered muk is)
One of the most lolstomps and biggest mismatches I've ever seen in this thread for Goku...That's not just some cosmic entity that lolstomps DBZ
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Lord Beerus wrote:
- Base Gotenks stomps, irregardless. Base Gotenks is Super Boo tier at that stage. And the Cell Jrs fused, whether it's Potara or Fusion Dance, do not reach that level in my opinion.
Sorry, but what makes you think base Gotenks is Super Boo tier post-RoSaT? He did try to fight Boo in base and got annihilated, Gotenks could barely even budge him with his best attacks, and even as a SSJ he couldn't do much to Boo without the Ghost Kamikaze attack. It took SSJ3 for Gotenks to gain the upper hand. I take it this is the post RoSaT Gotenks you're talking about?
shonenhikada wrote:Take into consideration that Charizard went around the world like a dozen times in a couple seconds.
No he didn't? Are you making reference to the Seismic Toss attack? Because that was done purely as an artistic choice, rather than actually displaying of feat of speed.
I feel both before and after leveraging the RoSaT, the kids are individually below Cell Jr. / Piccolo.
Even if we assume that they are presumably a lot closer to that level after their training, it's hard to believe that they've actually managed to surpass Cell Jr. / Piccolo
It may be hard to believe, but everything in the manga strongly implies that the kids are above Cell Jr. and Piccolo tier; especially after the leaving the ROSAT. As far as I'm concerned, with how their strength is portrayed in the manga, it goes like this:
SSJ Goten (Pre-ROSAT/Post-ROSAT) > SSJ Teen Gohan > Piccolo (Majin Boo arc)
In regards to Base Gotenks, I didn't think that he was Super Buu tier until he went SSJ3.
Even though Trunks states that in their base form as Gotenks they could defeat Super Boo?
I would like to point out that pre-RoSaT Trunks was struggling with levels of gravity which wasn't that far off from what Namek Arc Goku had trained with. I guess it also sort of depends on which Frieza Tarble was referring to when comparing him with Abo and Cado. It doesn't seem too likely that Tarble would even know about Frieza's Final Form at 100%, so we could assume that it was First Form Frieza that Tarble was referring to. On the other end of the spectrum, it's kind of odd to compare someone in their suppressed state. With Buu, it's a little different since the power he gains through absorbing others is more or less borrowed. In addition, the fact that there is physically more than one Buu also seems to leave that window of opportunity for any one of them to be compared. Going back on topic, with such subtle clues, and not a firm clear indication as to what levels were being used as a reference, I can't say for certain whether or not the kids in Buu Arc have surpassed Cell Jr. / Piccolo, or are still far below that realm of power.
SSJ3 Gotenks was likely a bit stronger than Super Buu, but I can't see how Base Gotenks would be anywhere near this level.
Kid Trunks at this time seemed to portray a decent amount of arrogance, which only seemed to amplify upon becoming Gotenks. He lacked the seriousness that his future counterpart seemed to embody. Additionally, I doubt he even knew the full extent of Super Buu's power. If Base Gotenks and Super Buu were equal in power, then SSJ3 Gotenks would have completely obliterated Super Buu. Seeing as how that wasn't the case, it seems more likely that Gotenks was only able to reach Super Buu tier after becoming SSJ3. Lastly, Gotenks looked pretty nervous when he reverted back to base form.
Last edited by supercat on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
shonenhikada wrote:Take into consideration that Charizard went around the world like a dozen times in a couple seconds.
No he didn't? Are you making reference to the Seismic Toss attack? Because that was done purely as an artistic choice, rather than actually displaying of feat of speed.
shonenhikada wrote:Take into consideration that Charizard went around the world like a dozen times in a couple seconds.
No he didn't? Are you making reference to the Seismic Toss attack? Because that was done purely as an artistic choice, rather than actually displaying of feat of speed.
Take into consideration that Charizard went around the world like a dozen times in a couple seconds.
Gotenks wins so easily it's not even funny. If Charizard really had that kind of speed, he would be able to charge every one of his opponents with the blink of an eye. Even base Goten would be able to toy with Charizard.
shonenhikada wrote:Obviously charizard isn't the size of a continent. They were showing you his course around the world with manga with the background of the earth.
Nope. It clearly shows Charizard next to the Earth. He's obviously the size of a continent. Clearly Charizard can change size.
Lord Beerus wrote:
- Base Gotenks stomps, irregardless. Base Gotenks is Super Boo tier at that stage. And the Cell Jrs fused, whether it's Potara or Fusion Dance, do not reach that level in my opinion.
Sorry, but what makes you think base Gotenks is Super Boo tier post-RoSaT? He did try to fight Boo in base and got annihilated, Gotenks could barely even budge him with his best attacks, and even as a SSJ he couldn't do much to Boo without the Ghost Kamikaze attack. It took SSJ3 for Gotenks to gain the upper hand. I take it this is the post RoSaT Gotenks you're talking about?
Yes, this is post ROSAT Gotenks, I'm talking about. Who Trunks believes at that stage could have beaten Super Boo and nobody really contradicts him on that. So, go figure.
shonenhikada wrote:Ash's Charizard vs SSJ Gotenks
Gotenks sneezes at Charizard. Charizard faints.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:
- Base Gotenks stomps, irregardless. Base Gotenks is Super Boo tier at that stage. And the Cell Jrs fused, whether it's Potara or Fusion Dance, do not reach that level in my opinion.
Sorry, but what makes you think base Gotenks is Super Boo tier post-RoSaT? He did try to fight Boo in base and got annihilated, Gotenks could barely even budge him with his best attacks, and even as a SSJ he couldn't do much to Boo without the Ghost Kamikaze attack. It took SSJ3 for Gotenks to gain the upper hand. I take it this is the post RoSaT Gotenks you're talking about?
Yes, this is post ROSAT Gotenks, I'm talking about. Who Trunks believes at that stage could have beaten Super Boo and nobody really contradicts him on that. So, go figure.
Except base Gotenks doesn't defeat Super Buu? And SSJ Gotenks couldn't defeat Super Buu? Is Base Gotenks stronger than SSJ Gotenks now?
Lord Beerus wrote:Yes, this is post ROSAT Gotenks, I'm talking about. Who Trunks believes at that stage could have beaten Super Boo and nobody really contradicts him on that. So, go figure.
Trunks' comparison was made to the fake Ki Buu was putting out when on the lookout. Also, Base Gotenks ~ Super Buu is kind of contradicted...
Lord Beerus wrote:Yes, this is post ROSAT Gotenks, I'm talking about. Who Trunks believes at that stage could have beaten Super Boo and nobody really contradicts him on that. So, go figure.
Trunks' comparison was made to the fake Ki Buu was putting out when on the lookout. Also, Base Gotenks ~ Super Buu is kind of contradicted...
Yes, I doubt Trunks even knew how powerful Super Buu could get if he got serious. Throw that lack of knowledge in with large amounts of childish arrogance, and you potentially have an empty boast.
