Which Trunks is the strongest?

[Kamiccolo9]

Piccolo-Boo, people.

Future Trunks by a country mile.

Goten and Trunks had a far greater effect on "Piccolo Buu" than Piccolo did. I've already posted the picture comparing the two "Piccolo Buus" half a dozen times; look it up.

Piccolo gave Buu clothes. Goten and Trunks actually changed Buu's body.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I can't help but scratch my head at people ignoring Goten giving Gohan trouble in a sparring match, prompting Gohan to think he'll be surpassed just from hearing that Goten play fights, and Piccolo calling the kids the world's last hope prior to learning about fusion being constantly discarded because only Piccolo-Buu resembled Piccolo more (although I agree with Kamiccolo that the kids had more influence.)

[supercat]

I feel like my opinion on this matter is sort of in the middle.

It's hard to say where Gohan stands in FnF, but assuming GT takes place in a completely different timeline, it is very well possible that Gohan has gotten stronger.

The part I have a difficult time believing is that his base form in GT is on par with his Ultimate form from Z.

My speculation on the Ultimate form was that, it's almost like a transformation itself where Gohan is able to tap into a large amount of strength without the strenuous efforts of literally transforming. With that said, I feel that Gohan could have gone SSJ / SSJ2 at anytime, but he simply chose not to do so as the multipliers for SSJ / SSJ2 at the time would have been negligible. However, it is possible that through diligent training, Gohan was able to strengthen his SSJ / SSJ2 forms to the point of those transformations yielding far more substantial multipliers thereby justifying the need to transform.

It's a bit confusing, so in short, the way I see it is, GT Base Gohan is far weaker than Ultimate Gohan from Z. However, if he desires, GT Base Gohan can raise his power back up and either transition back into the same Ultimate form he displayed in Z or transform into the now powered up SSJ / SSJ2 forms.

Because I always saw Ultimate form and regular base form as two different things, I sort of speculate the following:

GT SSJ2 Gohan > GT SSJ Gohan > Ultimate Gohan Z > > > GT Base Gohan

I mean if GT Base Gohan was really on par with his Ultimate self in Z, he would have trumped Base Rildo, who again, was likely being compared to Kid Buu. It just seems that if Goku was referring to Buuhan, he would have at the very least briefly mentioned how Rildo is even more powerful than Majin Buu was during the time he absorbed Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks. This would even further signify how powerful Rildo was as a new enemy.

In regards to how powerful Gohan was at full power or when he transformed into SSJ / SSJ2 in GT, I would have to say above Buuhan. By how much is debatable, but since SSJ Gohan was able to trash Piccolo with a Kamehameha and Piccolo > Buuhan is heavily implied, it seems plausible that SSJ / SSJ2 Gohan would be able to take down Buuhan quite easily as well.

[Darkprince410]

Except we don't. We have an unsourced Korean anime comic talking about Vegetto in general. The comic referencing only Super Vegetto is forced interpretation by people who refuse to accept SVB1 indirectly being stated to be above Super Vegetto twice.

Except myself and others have pointed out there's multiple ways to interpret what is said about Bebi Vegeta that leaves them accurate to what is said, while still putting him well below Ssj Vegetto's strength.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yeah, it just involves interpreting "I ain't ever sensed a Ki as incredible as that" as Goku actually lying, or interpreting Goku saying Vegeta-Baby is more than an even match for himself as them being equals

[Kaboom]

Can we stop with the smarmy eye-rolling, please? This isn't the type of community where being disagreed with grants the right to mock or demean others.

[Darkprince410]

Yeah, it just involves interpreting "I ain't ever sensed a Ki as incredible as that" as Goku actually lying, or interpreting Goku saying Vegeta-Baby is more than an even match for himself as them being equals

We have clear precedence of him saying that exact same thing before, only to turn around and reveal that he wasn't including himself in the mix. Since he existed as part of Vegetto at the time, that exact same line could very well exclude whatever he "sensed" from himself as Vegetto. Likewise, since he indicated "sensed", and there's no indication that one can sense their own ki in the same manner, that very well leaves it open for it not to be factoring in anything that he experienced himself. In either situation, the end result would be that Bebi Vegeta would simply need to be above Gohan Buu and it work.

Then you have Bebi Vegeta's boast about having obtained the greatest of Saiya power, which could be anything from him achieving what he felt was the greatest power a single Saiya-jin could ever obtain, that, following his absorption of the others' ki and the subsequent transformation, he was assuredly stronger than Goku, and thus was the strongest Saiya-jin currently, etc

In the end result, it still comes down to those lines having multiple interpretations, and that they can easily be correct in one context while still having Vegetto be more powerful than Ssj4 Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

We have clear precedence of him saying that exact same thing before, only to turn around and reveal that he wasn't including himself in the mix.

I'm assuming you're referring to the Janemba situation? That's a flawed argument, and here's why:

There's no proof Goku had sensed his own Super Saiyan 3 power until that time. Vegeta states Goku had a body to train and get stronger, meaning Goku is stronger than his Buu arc counterpart. To use the argument he's not including himself, you'd need to prove Goku had transformed into a Super Saiyan 3 and felt his own Ki at that point. Otherwise, Goku's statement could just mean:

SS3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > SS3 Goku (Buu arc)

Also, why is this situation always compared to Goku calling SVB1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt? What is even comparable about the two? How does Goku give any indication he's excluding himself when referring to SVB1?

Since he existed as part of Vegetto at the time, that exact same line could very well exclude whatever he "sensed" from himself as Vegetto. Likewise, since he indicated "sensed", and there's no indication that one can sense their own ki in the same manner, that very well leaves it open for it not to be factoring in anything that he experienced himself.

Goku says "felt" not "sensed". You can obviously feel your own Ki, as fighters are shown comparing themselves to other people all of the time. We also know Goku and Vegeta have the memories of being Vegetto, and we know Baby has the memories of those he's possessed.

In either situation, the end result would be that Bebi Vegeta would simply need to be above Gohan Buu and it work.

Rild was already above Gohan-Buu.

Then you have Bebi Vegeta's boast about having obtained the greatest of Saiya power, which could be anything from him achieving what he felt was the greatest power a single Saiya-jin could ever obtain, that, following his absorption of the others' ki and the subsequent transformation, he was assuredly stronger than Goku, and thus was the strongest Saiya-jin currently, etc

He was the strongest current Saiyan, so we know his comment isn't limited to currently existing Saiyans.

If he thought he couldn't get any stronger why did he tell the Tuffles to give him their energy?

In the end result, it still comes down to those lines having multiple interpretations, and that they can easily be correct in one context while still having Vegetto be more powerful than Ssj4 Goku.

The anime comic just has to mean Super Vegetto, yet two statements from the two people who have been Vegetto calling SVB1 the greatest Ki they've ever felt and the greatest of Saiyan power can mean anything? What even?

[Saiga]

GT Trunks is clearly the strongest. Goten has this to say about Baby's first form:

Episode 25
Time: 19m25s
Context: Baby has challenged Goten to a fight
Goten: "Satan-san, this guy is in a different league from everyone else up until now!"

And I don't see any reason for this to refer to anything but ki. So base Goten is stronger than, at the very least, Majin Boo from Z. GT Trunks is comparable to Goten, and that puts him above any other version of Trunks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Which, in context, is referring to all of the other Baby-possessed humans, who Satan was actually there for. I don't think that was meant to be a comparison to old villains.

[Darkprince410]

There's no proof Goku had sensed his own Super Saiyan 3 power until that time. Vegeta states Goku had a body to train and get stronger, meaning Goku is stronger than his Buu arc counterpart. To use the argument he's not including himself, you'd need to prove Goku had transformed into a Super Saiyan 3 and felt his own Ki at that point. Otherwise, Goku's statement could just mean:

The time frame for the movie, according to what all is shown, puts it, at most, a day after Goku's fight with Fat Buu, meaning that there's no real way he could have had any kind of appreciable strength gain after returning to the afterlife. As such, his strength wouldn't have changed from when he previously transformed to fight Buu.

Also, why is this situation always compared to Goku calling SVB1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt? What is even comparable about the two? How does Goku give any indication he's excluding himself when referring to SVB1?

Because Goku's exact words when he senses Janemba (fat Janemba) is that he's never felt a ki as incredible as that, exactly matching what he said later in GT about Bebi Vegeta. Then he turns around and effortlessly takes out Janemba while a Super Saiya-jin 3. If he were including himself in his comment, then it wouldn't make sense for him to so easily beat Janemba while Ssj3.

Goku says "felt" not "sensed". You can obviously feel your own Ki, as fighters are shown comparing themselves to other people all of the time. We also know Goku and Vegeta have the memories of being Vegetto, and we know Baby has the memories of those he's possessed.

Nevertheless, as pointed out above, we still have a precedence of Goku saying the exact same thing, yet excluding himself from the mix, so it's just as possible for Goku to not be referring to anything he experienced as Vegetto when saying that.

If he thought he couldn't get any stronger why did he tell the Tuffles to give him their energy?

The same reason that Gotenks Buu referred to himself as the strongest Ma-jin, simply because, at the time, he didn't foresee himself ever needing to get stronger. He was already stronger than Goku, and therefore he had no competition, so he had achieved the "greatest of Saiya power".

The anime comic just has to mean Super Vegetto, yet two statements from the two people who have been Vegetto calling SVB1 the greatest Ki they've ever felt and the greatest of Saiyan power can mean anything? What even?

Because the entire section about that comic was the evolution of Goku, referencing all the forms and things he had achieved. Anything beyond Ssj Vegetto was something not shown, so it wouldn't make any sense to reference or suggest anything beyond that.

And I don't see any reason for this to refer to anything but ki. So base Goten is stronger than, at the very least, Majin Boo from Z. GT Trunks is comparable to Goten, and that puts him above any other version of Trunks.

Given that Goten had just finished dispatching a number of people controlled by Bebi, and then passed off his date to Mr. Satan to have him take her to safety, it could very well simply be a situation of Goten saying that Bebi is in a different league than any of the other people he just took out.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The time frame for the movie, according to what all is shown, puts it, at most, a day after Goku's fight with Fat Buu, meaning that there's no real way he could have had any kind of appreciable strength gain after returning to the afterlife. As such, his strength wouldn't have changed from when he previously transformed to fight Buu.

Where are you getting this information exactly? Vegeta was CRYING because of how strong Goku was compared to him. Clearly Goku is stronger than his Buu arc counterpart.

Because Goku's exact words when he senses Janemba (fat Janemba) is that he's never felt a ki as incredible as that, exactly matching what he said later in GT about Bebi Vegeta. Then he turns around and effortlessly takes out Janemba while a Super Saiya-jin 3. If he were including himself in his comment, then it wouldn't make sense for him to so easily beat Janemba while Ssj3.

Yes, but I mean they're not the same. Assuming Goku had sensed himself at that point, we know Goku's not including himself since he kicks the shit out of Janemba. He calls SVB1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt after undisputedly being shown as inferior, there's literally no indication he's excluding himself.

Non only this, but Goku is not Vegetto. Vegetto has a different body, different hair, and most importantly different Ki.

Nevertheless, as pointed out above, we still have a precedence of Goku saying the exact same thing, yet excluding himself from the mix, so it's just as possible for Goku to not be referring to anything he experienced as Vegetto when saying that.

No we don't. Proving Goku had sensed his Super Saiyan 3 at that point? That's on you.

The same reason that Gotenks Buu referred to himself as the strongest Ma-jin, simply because, at the time, he didn't foresee himself ever needing to get stronger.

Gotenks-Buu was expecting to finish Gohan off, that's why. Super Baby 1 literally lasts for like 1 minute. In his mind he was thinking he'll never get stronger, then 30 seconds later he decides he's going to get stronger?

He was already stronger than Goku, and therefore he had no competition, so he had achieved the "greatest of Saiya power".

You're actually helping to prove my point.

If he's already stronger than Goku, than he's already the greatest current Saiyan, yet he doesn't obtain the greatest of Saiyan power until after his transformation.

Because the entire section about that comic was the evolution of Goku, referencing all the forms and things he had achieved. Anything beyond Ssj Vegetto was something not shown, so it wouldn't make any sense to reference or suggest anything beyond that.

How exactly do you know that?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 00#p612922

According to Herms, it is talking about Vegetto as a whole.

[Saiga]

Which, in context, is referring to all of the other Baby-possessed humans, who Satan was actually there for. I don't think that was meant to be a comparison to old villains.

Ahh, didn't think about those guys. That would also make sense, but the quote really seemed to me like it was another hype line like "I've never felt a ki so huge" etc. A new villain appearing and being said to be stronger than the previous ones isn't exactly knew.

[supercat]

The most common form of Freeza that was seen by his henchman was his first form. Tarble someone who had little exposure to Freeza's empire referred to Abo and Kado to be around Freeza level. Indicating that they were at first form Freeza pl (530,000).

Freeza said no one alive has seen his 3rd form and only a handful of people have ever witnessed his second form.

Tarble does establish though that he acquired information regarding Freeza being defeated by a Saiya-jin and learned of where said Saiya-jin was, so there's definitely room for them to have informed him of Freeza's more powerful states (either from their own brief exposure to them after their resurrection, or through Dende telling them). Additionally, remember that it took Goku transforming into a Super Saiya-jin to convince Tarble that they were capable of handling Abo and Cado, and even then he said that it'd "probably" be enough. If Goku simply raised his battle power to one million, that'd be more than enough to show that he was stronger than them if their strength was merely 530,000.

Except for Rild being stronger than Gohan who's stronger than his Z-self who was already a lot stronger than Super Buu

Except that it really just doesn't fit what's shown. How can Goten and Trunks, both established to have slacked off over the years, manage to reach Gohan Buu levels of power in their base form when they weren't remotely close to that beforehand? Not to mention that you saying that you think he's at that level is saying that you think Piccolo is suddenly in Gohan Buu levels of power too, when there is nothing remotely indicating that he did or even could have reached that level of strength in fifteen years time, especially when he couldn't even reach Ssj2 levels of strength over the course of seven years.

There's a difference between "silly bias" and saying when something literally doesn't work with what all evidence is given.

Hell, there's precedence in the notion that the Perfect Files is mistaken, since there's at least one other clear error with the guide book. It comments that Goku only transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 2 one time in GT, and that was for the new opening, when it's clear that he transformed briefly during his fight with Rild's final form to dissipate the liquid metal ball that Rild shot at him. His hair clearly alters from his Ssj to his Ssj2 state, and it can't be attributed to the aura blowing his hair up or anything, since during the close ups, there's no indication of his hair flapping about or anything that was indicative of it being "blown back".

So if there's an error there, what's to say that there's not an error in it reporting that Gohan hadn't neglected his training? Would explain everything perfectly to have his strength dropped down substantially (which 10 guaranteed years of slacking off would accomplish) and not result in the GT characters having ludicrous levels of power when there's just no way they could obtain that much from where they were at come the end of Z.

While I can agree that it is extremely unlikely that Trunks and Goten obtained levels that are even remotely akin to Buuhan's, it doesn't seem likely that GT Gohan and GT Piccolo were also subjected to the same fate.

Rildo > some form of Buu was stated by Goku. I'm one of the fans who believe that this statement was directed towards Kid Buu or possibly even Mr. Buu. If the comparison was meant for Buuhan, it seems more plausible for Goku to elaborate the fact that Rildo had a higher power than Majin Buu even during the time Buu absorbed Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks. With that said, GT Base Gohan wasn't one-shotted by Base Rildo who we can assume is at the very least Kid Buu tier. Throw in the SSJ / SSJ2 multipliers and that leaves massive amounts of room to place GT Gohan's battle power.

As for Piccolo, not only was he able to survive a Kamehameha from GT Gohan (Baby possessed), he seemingly took over hell which contained beings who at the very least were likely Kid Buu tier. Even if we assume Base Rildo is only Mr. Buu level, his final form would still likely put him around Buuhan. Considering how Piccolo had no problem staying in a place that contained beings who possibly possessed battle powers comparable to the strongest forms of Buu, it seems very conceivable to me that the Namekian had obtained levels of power far beyond any form of Buu. In addition, keeping the villains in check seemed like part of his routine.

[Hitiro]

The time frame for the movie, according to what all is shown, puts it, at most, a day after Goku's fight with Fat Buu, meaning that there's no real way he could have had any kind of appreciable strength gain after returning to the afterlife. As such, his strength wouldn't have changed from when he previously transformed to fight Buu.

Where are you getting this information exactly? Vegeta was CRYING because of how strong Goku was compared to him. Clearly Goku is stronger than his Buu arc counterpart.

I don't think you understand what he means here. What he is saying is Fat Janemba was touted as being the strongest Ki Goku had sensed. Yet when Goku transforms into a SSJ3 he quickly dispatches Fat Janemba. So in all likelihood the power stance would be Fat Boo < Janemba < SSJ3 Goku. Your argument is that in GT Goku is including himself in the statement, or any other form of himself(including fusions), that SBV1 is the strongest Ki he has ever sensed. Yet in the Fusion Reborn movie Goku clearly isn't including his own power in relation to Fat Janemba because otherwise he wouldn't have been able to beat Janemba so readily. Nobody is arguing that Goku wasn't stronger than Fat Boo. What is being said here is that Goku isn't including himself in sensing Ki. Probably because there is never any indication in the manga or anime that a character can sense their own Ki. Therefore Goku, while being Vegetto, couldn't possibly include that as a power being sensed like how it is in the Fusion Reborn movie.

So basically the strongest power he has ever sensed would be Fat Janemba. While his power is still greater than Fat Janemba's as a SSJ3 he can't sense his own power and thus would never include himself in the statement.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You have yet to prove Goku had sensed his own power. Did you not read my post?

Goku is stronger from his Buu saga counterpart. So if Goku hadn't transformed at one point after his fight with Buu, his statement just means:

SS3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > SS3 Goku (Last time he transformed / before he got stronger / presumably Buu saga)

Probably because there is never any indication in the manga or anime that a character can sense their own Ki.

I'm pretty sure you're the only person who even argues this. Who ever said you can't feel your own Ki? That's as stupid as saying you can't feel your own skin, or smell your own body, or hear your own voice.

No indication?

Post-RoSaT Piccolo compares his Ki to Cell's because he doesn't even know how strong he is? Vegeta compares himself to Trunks because he has no clue how strong he is? Goku knows he's stronger than Vegeta after the RoSaT because he doesn't know how strong he is? Vegeta knows he's stronger than Teen Gohan when he's only sensed Gohan's Ki and hasn't seen him fight?

[Hitiro]

You have yet to prove Goku had sensed his own power. Did you not read my post?

Goku is stronger from his Buu saga counterpart. So if Goku hadn't transformed at one point after his fight with Buu, his statement just means:

SS3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > SS3 Goku (Last time he transformed / before he got stronger)

I don't understand how you would believe that Goku didn't know the level of his SSJ3 form prior to transforming. He had already been in the transformation before. If you're saying that somehow Goku got massively more powerful from between the Fat Boo fight and the Fat Janemba fight I'd have to ask you how is that even possible? Zenkai's had long since stopped being a thing and Goku was already stronger than Fat Boo so his strength should not have increased by such a drastic degree. I've always been of the belief that a 1.5x gap is necessary for someone to completely destroy their opponent in Dragon Ball. So are you saying that prior to Goku's last transformation Goku's battle power sky-rocketed to over 1.5x more? Because if SSJ3 Goku(Fat Boo) < Fat Janemba << SSJ3 Goku(Post-Fat Boo) that is a crazy power increase.

Probably because there is never any indication in the manga or anime that a character can sense their own Ki.

I'm pretty sure you're the only person who even argues this. Who ever said you can't feel your own Ki? That's as stupid as saying you can't feel your own skin, or smell your own body.

Likewise, since he indicated "sensed", and there's no indication that one can sense their own ki in the same manner, that very well leaves it open for it not to be factoring in anything that he experienced himself. In either situation, the end result would be that Bebi Vegeta would simply need to be above Gohan Buu and it work.

I'm not the only one who believes this. Why is it as stupid as saying you can't feel your own skin? And the smell your own body thing is honestly a bad example. I could not take a shower for weeks and I would not notice a difference but the people around me would. I mean if you go onto google there is an entire article called "How to Know You Smell when You Can't Smell Yourself" on wikihow.

No indication?

Piccolo compares his Ki to Cell's because he doesn't even know how strong he is? Vegeta compares himself to Trunks because he has no clue how strong he is? Goku knows he's stronger than Vegeta because he doesn't know how strong he is? Reach for the stars.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P1.1
Context: after regenerating his arm while fighting Cell
Piccolo: “Cell, even if I take into account the energy you sucked from my arm, I’m still more powerful than you. Brace yourself!”

Never does he compare his Ki to Cell's. All he says is that even with the power loss he is still believes he's more powerful.

And I also don't see why people making comparisons to others would necessarily mean that they can sense themselves. There are multiple ways to tell how someone fairs in strength to yourself. Goku and Vegeta both judge Dabra to be Cell's level despite not sensing his Ki. And I would also say that if Dabra's punch looks slow to them then they can ascertain that Dabra is weaker. There is also probably the way a character carries themselves. Or possibly sensing someone who is weaker than you just doesn't leave much of an impression on you. Kind of like "He has a decent amount of Ki but for some reason it doesn't seem that impressive." Let's also not forget that Goku could judge Vegeta based off of his sparring with Gohan. Gohan would be vastly more powerful than Vegeta so Goku could easily ascertain that he is greater than Vegeta by being a good sparring partner for Gohan who is clearly leagues above Vegeta. Vegeta could also ascertain that he is above Trunks in the RoSaT if he see's Trunks training. There are any number of ways to look at this.

I mean Vegeta gets Kid Trunks to spar with him to test his strength. So it's clearly not easy to gauge an opponent's strength just by sensing Ki. Otherwise a lot of characters would not be so stupid. Like Boohan against SSJ Vegetto or Super Vegeta against Perfect Cell.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't understand how you would believe that Goku didn't know the level of his SSJ3 form prior to transforming. He had already been in the transformation before.

There's a difference between actually feeling your own Ki, and just predicting how strong you are based on knowing how much a transformation multiplies your power.

If you're saying that somehow Goku got massively more powerful from between the Fat Boo fight and the Fat Janemba fight I'd have to ask you how is that even possible? Zenkai's had long since stopped being a thing and Goku was already stronger than Fat Boo so his strength should not have increased by such a drastic degree. I've always been of the belief that a 1.5x gap is necessary for someone to completely destroy their opponent in Dragon Ball. So are you saying that prior to Goku's last transformation Goku's battle power sky-rocketed to over 1.5x more? Because if SSJ3 Goku(Fat Boo) < Fat Janemba << SSJ3 Goku(Post-Fat Boo) that is a crazy power increase.

Because this is Toei? How does Goku go from weaker than Super Buu to stronger than Gohan-Buu within two episodes?

Vegeta was crying because of how much stronger Goku became, he even said Goku had a body to train.

I'm not the only one who believes this. Why is it as stupid as saying you can't feel your own skin? And the smell your own body thing is honestly a bad example. I could not take a shower for weeks and I would not notice a difference but the people around me would. I mean if you go onto google there is an entire article called "How to Know You Smell when You Can't Smell Yourself" on wikihow.

Then whoever made that article is a cretin. I've smelt myself before. Go play a sport or something and smell your armpit afterwards, you'll clearly notice it smells bad (awkward example but you get the point.)

Never does he compare his Ki to Cell's. All he says is that even with the power loss he is still believes he's more powerful.

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

And I also don't see why people making comparisons to others would necessarily mean that they can sense themselves. There are multiple ways to tell how someone fairs in strength to yourself. Goku and Vegeta both judge Dabra to be Cell's level despite not sensing his Ki. And I would also say that if Dabra's punch looks slow to them then they can ascertain that Dabra is weaker. There is also probably the way a character carries themselves. Or possibly sensing someone who is weaker than you just doesn't leave much of an impression on you. Kind of like "He has a decent amount of Ki but for some reason it doesn't seem that impressive." Let's also not forget that Goku could judge Vegeta based off of his sparring with Gohan. Gohan would be vastly more powerful than Vegeta so Goku could easily ascertain that he is greater than Vegeta by being a good sparring partner for Gohan who is clearly leagues above Vegeta. Vegeta could also ascertain that he is above Trunks in the RoSaT if he see's Trunks training. There are any number of ways to look at this.

So you're saying when Vegeta in the Buu saga compares himself to Goku and Teen Gohan, he's not basing it on his own Ki, he's just watching how fast Goku punches (even though the fight was in the dark), calculating how fast Gohan's punch would be compared to Goku, and then comparing that to how fast he punches (he somehow has a way to record what?), and that's how he's able to tell he's stronger than Gohan? This really is grasping.

[Hitiro]

There's a difference between actually feeling your own Ki, and just predicting how strong you are based on knowing how much a transformation multiplies your power.

If he was that much stronger than Fat Janemba as a SSJ3 it would be clear. Now if they were both fairly even then I would understand that it would be hard to tell who is stronger without actually transforming himself and fighting. But Goku was so strong he literally took out Fat Janemba in one attack. There is no reason he would think his Ki is inferior to Janemba's here.

Because this is Toei? How does Goku go from weaker than Super Buu to stronger than Gohan-Buu within two episodes?

When does this ever happen? Goku never jumps like this in power.

Vegeta was crying because of how much stronger Goku became, he even said Goku had a body to train.

Actually Vegeta said that even in the afterlife he is still inferior to Goku. Goku responded by saying naturally there is a gap between them because he has a body that he could train whereas Vegeta is only a spirit.

I'm not the only one who believes this. Why is it as stupid as saying you can't feel your own skin? And the smell your own body thing is honestly a bad example. I could not take a shower for weeks and I would not notice a difference but the people around me would. I mean if you go onto google there is an entire article called "How to Know You Smell when You Can't Smell Yourself" on wikihow.

Then whoever made that article is a cretin. I've smelt myself before. Go play a sport or something and smell your armpit afterwards, you'll clearly notice it smells bad (awkward example but you get the point.)

Well I'll be the first one to say that I've smelled without knowing it. And I've had to have people tell me that I'm smelling. So Ki could be similar in that regard in that you can tell others Ki but yours can't be sensed. At least not in the way that way you would normally sense someone else's Ki. Therefore it is entirely fair to separate the two. I honestly don't see why you would refute the possibility that you can't smell yourself. I mean we hear our voices differently from other people too. And we only hear what they actually sound like if they are recorded. So even if we do sense ourselves in some way through our senses. It is highly possible we aren't going to sense ourselves in a way that others would. It's also just as possible that we can't sense ourselves like when you smell. I'm not claiming everyone can't smell themselves when they smell. But it does happen.

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

How is this proof that he can sense his own Ki exactly? Again, he never says anything about Ki. Like I said there are numerous ways that he could judge how different he is in comparison to Cell without actually sensing his own Ki. He witnessed Cell's fighting from the lookout when he was using his Kami ability to look down on the world and view the events when Vegeta and Trunks were fighting Cell. He would already have an understanding of where suppressed Cell's speed and strength sit before he went into the RoSaT. He can merely compare his own speed and strength to suppressed Cell and realise there is a huge gap between them. Like how Goku and Vegeta compared Dabra to Cell based on nothing but movement.

So you're saying when Vegeta in the Buu saga compares himself to Goku and Teen Gohan, he's not basing it on his own Ki, he's just watching how fast Goku punches (even though the fight was in the dark), calculating how fast Gohan's punch would be compared to Goku, and then comparing that to how fast he punches (he somehow has a way to record what?), and that's how he's able to tell he's stronger than Gohan? This really is grasping.

The fight being in the dark has a baring on comparing himself to Goku? Why? Goku could accurately judge the timing of his opponents moves in the dark just by feeling the change in air. It isn't ridiculous to think that Vegeta could use the same technique to judge the timing of Goku's moves and gauge where he places. And I'm not sure why he needs to compare Gohan's punch to Goku's. He would be comparing their punches to his own to gauge where he sits. If he wants to compare Goku and Gohan against each other he can use their Ki's to do that. Because he doesn't have the problem of comparing other people. Only himself to other people. Which as I pointed out can be rectified by determining movement among other things.

I honestly don't see how this is grasping. They literally compare Dabra's strength to be on par with Cell's strength based on nothing but movement. Because Dabra is a magical being they can't sense. If you're saying it is grasping then I guess this factual point is also grasping? I guess they really didn't compare Dabra to Cell using just movement? Because you are saying they couldn't do that amongst themselves. That is just silly. We have a proven example of them being able to gauge someones strength based purely on movement and attacks. Yet it is somehow grasping at straws to say they can do this to compare each other? Okay then.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If he was that much stronger than Fat Janemba as a SSJ3 it would be clear. Now if they were both fairly even then I would understand that it would be hard to tell who is stronger without actually transforming himself and fighting. But Goku was so strong he literally took out Fat Janemba in one attack. There is no reason he would think his Ki is inferior to Janemba's here.

Can you really not comprehend something so simple?

I'm saying there's no proof Goku has felt his current Super Saiyan 3 power. It doesn't matter if he could tell how strong it is, there's not proof he's actually felt it.

So if he calls Janemba the greatest Ki he's ever felt, it doesn't have to include a Ki he hasn't felt and just knows.

Like Super Saiyan Gotenks. Goku can tell how strong Gotenks is (enough to beat Fat Buu) based on what he's felt from fusion before, not from actually feeling Gotenks' Ki.

Well I'll be the first one to say that I've smelled without knowing it. And I've had to have people tell me that I'm smelling. So Ki could be similar in that regard in that you can tell others Ki but yours can't be sensed. At least not in the way that way you would normally sense someone else's Ki. Therefore it is entirely fair to separate the two. I honestly don't see why you would refute the possibility that you can't smell yourself. I mean we hear our voices differently from other people too. And we only hear what they actually sound like if they are recorded. So even if we do sense ourselves in some way through our senses. It is highly possible we aren't going to sense ourselves in a way that others would. It's also just as possible that we can't sense ourselves like when you smell. I'm not claiming everyone can't smell themselves when they smell. But it does happen.

Point is, whether it's different from other's perception, you still can smell, hear, and feel yourself.

You're also ignoring that Goku says SVB1 is the greatest Ki Goku's ever felt, not sensed. Goku was able to tell he's at half power when powering up for Korin. If he can't feel his own Ki, he can't know what percent he's at.

The fight being in the dark has a baring on comparing himself to Goku? Why? Goku could accurately judge the timing of his opponents moves in the dark just by feeling the change in air. It isn't ridiculous to think that Vegeta could use the same technique to judge the timing of Goku's moves and gauge where he places.

Because Vegeta can't see? Vegeta wasn't the one fighting or near the fight. Saying Vegeta felt the change in air and judged Goku is conjecture.

And I'm not sure why he needs to compare Gohan's punch to Goku's. He would be comparing their punches to his own to gauge where he sits. If he wants to compare Goku and Gohan against each other he can use their Ki's to do that. Because he doesn't have the problem of comparing other people. Only himself to other people. Which as I pointed out can be rectified by determining movement among other things.

Vegeta hadn't seen Gohan fight, yet he compares himself to Gohan.

I honestly don't see how this is grasping. They literally compare Dabra's strength to be on par with Cell's strength based on nothing but movement. Because Dabra is a magical being they can't sense. If you're saying it is grasping then I guess this factual point is also grasping? I guess they really didn't compare Dabra to Cell using just movement? Because you are saying they couldn't do that amongst themselves. That is just silly. We have a proven example of them being able to gauge someones strength based purely on movement and attacks. Yet it is somehow grasping at straws to say they can do this to compare each other? Okay then.

The fight is in the dark. Vegeta can't see anything. You're saying that one time he saw Goku kicked Yakon was enough for Vegeta to tell how strong Goku is, compare that to Gohan's Ki, and use that to determine how fast Gohan punches, and that's how he knows how strong he is compared to Gohan.