Torishima's thoughts on when the series should've ended

[ShadowWolf87]

He's completely right...the manga went to shit after Freeza

Nah, manga was great before, during, and after Freeza. People may not like certain parts as much as others, but it really can't be argued to have gone that far downhill.

[Doctor.]

I'd argue that the manga was really just a bit above average before and after the Saiyan and Freeza arcs and those two were what pushed it towards greatness.

[Hellspawn28]

The Cell saga would have been great if Toriyama's editor didn't force changes to happen. If we just kept it at Dr. Gero being our main villain then we could have got a great story saga.

[ABED]

The most prominent of which is Gohan someday being able to protect the Earth.

That was never that prominent. All we saw was that Gohan was strong because he was Gohan's son, but it's not like it was a story that was begging to be resolved, in fact, it wasn't even really a story. It's not like in Buffy where the writers kept making it a point of bringing up Willow's growing addiction to magic or Spike's growing infatuation with Buffy. Had Buffy ended when it did, those threads wouldn't have been resolved. Gohan's "story thread" didn't need resolution.

I think had Freeza been the final arc, it would've been satisfying with a few tweaks. If that was the end, Goku should return to Earth.

[LuckyCat]

The most prominent of which is Gohan someday being able to protect the Earth.

That was never that prominent. All we saw was that Gohan was strong because he was Gohan's son, but it's not like it was a story that was begging to be resolved, in fact, it wasn't even really a story.

Prominent relative to the other unresolved story threads. And I do disagree, Gohan was trained by Piccolo to stop the Saiyans yet his potential didn't come out at that battle; he couldn't even damage Nappa. Later on Namek Vegeta makes multiple allusions to Gohan sitting on a tremendous amount of power, enough to defeat Frieza. After seeing one of Gohan's rage bursts he speculates that Gohan may be the closest Saiyan among them to becoming Super Saiyan.

If they didn't resolve the puzzle of Gohan's power and these bursts, Gohan would've been a simple Creator's pet. Giving Gohan an arc to finally show the audience why we had to spend so much time watchinghim train and grow gives us a reason to feel like that time paid off. Some may argue Gohan lending a small hand here and there might have been enough, but if that's the case they really shouldn't have given his training and power so much attention as it ultimately never amounted to much up to Freeza.

[ABED]

I don't think it was unresolved. Gohan was another fighter, a strong one who is the son of the protagonist, but it never felt to me that it was inevitable that he would take Goku's place. Had it ended with Freeza, I don't feel like there would have been a dangling thread. Sure Piccolo was training Gohan to help, but that doesn't mean he was always going to go in the direction you claim.

Vegeta made multiple boasts, I don't know why Gohan's power is the one to single out and say, "There's no resolution to this story!" Gohan's latent power seemed a contrivance of the story. It was fine at first, but he kept having more despite having guys like the Grand Elder bring it out. After a while it feels less organic to the series than a contrivance to allow Gohan to fight progressively stronger opponents.

Ending at the Freeza arc feels like the most logical place since he was the strongest in the series and there was something climactic about ending it with him. Ending with the being that destroyed one's race feels appropriate. That said, I'm fond of Vegeta finally admitting that Goku's the best and even thought the filler episode where Goku's friends sit around the dinner table listening to his stories felt like a better ending than the one the manga gave us.

[Rocketman]

If Super Saiyan Goku dies in the explosion of Namek, Gohan is the most powerful being in the universe.

[ABED]

If Super Saiyan Goku dies in the explosion of Namek, Gohan is the most powerful being in the universe.

I think Vegeta and Piccolo are still stronger at that point.

[dbzfan7]

The most prominent of which is Gohan someday being able to protect the Earth.

That was never that prominent. All we saw was that Gohan was strong because he was Gohan's son, but it's not like it was a story that was begging to be resolved, in fact, it wasn't even really a story.

Prominent relative to the other unresolved story threads. And I do disagree, Gohan was trained by Piccolo to stop the Saiyans yet his potential didn't come out at that battle; he couldn't even damage Nappa. Later on Namek Vegeta makes multiple allusions to Gohan sitting on a tremendous amount of power, enough to defeat Freeza. After seeing one of Gohan's rage bursts he speculates that Gohan may be the closest Saiyan among them to becoming Super Saiyan.

If they didn't resolve the puzzle of Gohan's power and these bursts, Gohan would've been a simple Creator's pet. Giving Gohan an arc to finally show the audience why we had to spend so much time watchinghim train and grow gives us a reason to feel like that time paid off. Some may argue Gohan lending a small hand here and there might have been enough, but if that's the case they really shouldn't have given his training and power so much attention as it ultimately never amounted to much up to Freeza.

Agreed. Without later arcs, Gohan would have remained utterly wasted and pointless, build up leading to nothing, and being an obligatory kid character. Also by the end of Freeza, Vegeta isn't a good guy. With Goku and Freeza dead, Vegeta is the strongest. Vegeta could pretty much do whatever he wants unopposed.

[ABED]

But that's the issue, I don't think it was necessarily building up to anything at that point. Even if he is the "obligatory" kid character, it's ALWAYS about execution. I don't think Gohan needed "a point". He just needs to be a character.

[dbzfan7]

But that's the point, I don't think it was necessarily building up to anything at that point. Even if he is the "obligatory" kid character, it's ALWAYS about execution.

Well if that's what you believe, well alright then. I disagree. If the story ended here, then they shoulda scrapped the whole potential thing to begin with, or just never had Goku have a son at all.

[ABED]

But that's the point, I don't think it was necessarily building up to anything at that point. Even if he is the "obligatory" kid character, it's ALWAYS about execution.

Well if that's what you believe, well alright then. I disagree. If the story ended here, then they shoulda scrapped the whole potential thing to begin with, or just never had Goku have a son at all.

I don't think his potential was nearly as big a deal as you guys make it out to be. Sure he has some, but that's not the point of the story and he doesn't need to take Goku's spot in order for him to contribute. Being Goku's son doesn't mean he has to take over. There are numerous logical ways for that story to end other than simply him taking Goku's position.

[dbzfan7]

But that's the point, I don't think it was necessarily building up to anything at that point. Even if he is the "obligatory" kid character, it's ALWAYS about execution.

Well if that's what you believe, well alright then. I disagree. If the story ended here, then they shoulda scrapped the whole potential thing to begin with, or just never had Goku have a son at all.

I don't think his potential was nearly as big a deal as you guys make it out to be. Sure he has some, but that's not the point of the story and he doesn't need to take Goku's spot in order for him to contribute. Being Goku's son doesn't mean he has to take over. There are numerous logical ways for that story to end other than simply him taking Goku's position.

I never even said anything about taking Goku's position. Only realizing his potential. As a 4 year old he was already stronger than Goku. That alone is massive potential considering all we've seen on our adventures with Goku in the series. Goku was this amazing kid who grew up into a fine adult, and then his kid turns out to have more potential than he does. This kid even after Goku told us has been sheltered away from Martial Arts, has more raw potential than Goku and his biggest rival at the time. To have everything end before he learns how to tap into the raw potential, would mean it went nowhere. We'd end of with untapped potential and a psycho with no one alive who can stop him.

[ABED]

He was temporarily stronger, but other characters have been stronger than Goku. Gohan did learn how to tap into his potential. That's what Piccolo's training and The Grand Elder's power up were about. Gohan was an invaluable part of the team during the Saiyan arc. I would say that alone was him living up to his potential. That's showing the story going somewhere. Constantly saying that Gohan has more and more dormant power even though something drew it out is just a terrible way to keep him relevant and lacks any sense. Gohan helping defeat Vegeta WAS Gohan tapping his potential. And why is it more interesting that the story explores Gohan's potential than a character like Goku that pushes himself past his limits? In real life, there are many people that have more natural talent for some things but aren't as good as those that push themselves and practice hard.

If Toriyama ended with Freeza's death, he wouldn't have ended it the way he did. There would've been tweaks to the story. Obviously Vegeta wouldn't be alive on Earth and Goku dead.

[dbzfan7]

He was temporarily stronger, but other characters have been stronger than Goku. Gohan did learn how to tap into his potential. That's what Piccolo's training and The Grand Elder's power up were about. Gohan was an invaluable part of the team during the Saiyan arc. I would say that alone was him living up to his potential. That's showing the story going somewhere. Constantly saying that Gohan has more and more dormant power even though something drew it out is just a terrible way to keep him relevant and lacks any sense. Gohan helping defeat Vegeta WAS Gohan tapping his potential. And why is it more interesting that the story explores Gohan's potential than a character like Goku that pushes himself past his limits? In real life, there are many people that have more natural talent for some things but aren't as good as those that push themselves and practice hard.

If Toriyama ended with Freeza's death, he wouldn't have ended it the way he did. There would've been tweaks to the story. Obviously Vegeta wouldn't be alive on Earth and Goku dead.

Not at all. He hardly could tap into his power at all in the Saiyan arc, and cowered several times. He never fully taps into his potential, but only in short bursts. Piccolo never fixed that. Guru's power up also never fixed that as we see Gohan still has even more hidden power, otherwise those moments of rage shouldn't exist anymore. To answer the Goku question, it's cause he hardly ever changes. Instead of keeping the core of Goku's character and ;etting him grow and develop, he's the same person more or less. He doesn't subtly grow or change, that's why Toriyama constantly had all character development be everyone who isn't Goku. Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, they were the ones who had that focus. Goku does the same thing every time, just get stronger and beat the bad guy. That's all he ever does. Gohan grows up from being cowardly and a crybaby. Piccolo's heart softens and he grows fond of the earth and no longer is a demon. Vegeta over the course of the series loses his savagery, settles down, and ends his bitter rivalry with Goku. Goku accepts his Saiyan heritage...and then becomes a douche....that's about it.

Do you really get any kick out of butting heads? Cause this is really all this conversation is, butting heads.

[ABED]

And if they ended at Cell they wouldn't need any tweaks at all.

The Cell ending was good, but not great, I still think Vegeta's arc is far more prevalent than Gohan's and makes more sense to the entire show than Gohan's. Gohan's potential felt more of like something in the background and cheaply used when necessary except in the first arc, then it was used whenever convenient to allow Gohan to fight . Against Cell, the central conflict felt lacking because ultimately Cell's issue was with Goku, Gohan's involvement didn't happen until the very end and even then it still feels like it's Goku vs. Cell with Gohan as Goku's proxy. Vegeta's arc isn't truly complete until the Buu arc, that is, unless there's never a Cell arc. If Gohan doesn't take his place as the central character, he still helps out during the Vegeta arc, and that more than shows him tapping into his potential. Goku is and should remain the same character, that shouldn't be sacrificed just so Gohan can keep pulling out more potential.

dbzfan, Yes, Gohan cowered, in the beginning, but by the end of it, he had matured. He cowers against Nappa, but against Vegeta, he finds his courage. He doesn't need to win to fully tap his potential. He was integral to that victory. I'm well aware that Gohan had more "hidden power" but it's cheap. He ALWAYS has more. It gets annoying after a while. Gohan can still have rage without it cheaply giving him the power to go up against beings he has no ability to fight otherwise.

Goku's not a douche, and Goku doesn't need to change, but he doesn't become less naïve about the world as he grows up.

It's not butting heads, that implies more than simple disagreement.

[LuckyCat]

And if they ended at Cell they wouldn't need any tweaks at all.

The Cell ending was good, but not great, I still think Vegeta's arc is far more prevalent than Gohan's and makes more sense to the entire show than Gohan's. Gohan's potential felt more of like something in the background and cheaply used when necessary except in the first arc, then it was used whenever convenient to allow Gohan to fight . Against Cell, the central conflict felt lacking because ultimately Cell's issue was with Goku, Gohan's involvement didn't happen until the very end and even then it still feels like it's Goku vs. Cell with Gohan as Goku's proxy.

First, I don't think Gohan's power was cheaply used. Gohan's potential was documented right near his introduction and even Nappa gave a possible in-universe scientific reason for it (human and saiyan blood mixed creates hybrid which might be considered a Super Saiyan). Also the power was not always effective in battle, it needed training (Piccolo tries to get it out of Gohan, sort of succeeds, and Goku later fully succeeds).

Second, Goku is very much absent from the entire Android/Cell arc. Gohan actually gets involved in plot (finding the time machine, finding Cell, trying to reason with Cell). Yes, Goku is present, but he works more as mentor in that arc (He teaches Gohan to fight, he fights Cell first to show Gohan Cell's moves). The whole drama of the arc is making the audience believe it's going to another Big Bad versus Goku plot, only for the audience and the Big Bad's expectations to be thrown off as finally, Gohan, that guy whose been training the entirety of Z, gets his chance in the spotlight.

At least, that's my interpretation. As I stated earlier in this thread I can definitely see why any of the main arcs could be good endings for Dragon Ball. But for the reasons stated above I think Cell is a great addition. And I think we both agree that Buu adds some nice depth to Vegeta's unfinished story as well.

[dbzfan7]

dbzfan, Yes, Gohan cowered, in the beginning, but by the end of it, he had matured. He cowers against Nappa, but against Vegeta, he finds his courage. He doesn't need to win to fully tap his potential. He was integral to that victory. I'm well aware that Gohan had more "hidden power" but it's cheap. He ALWAYS has more. It gets annoying after a while. Gohan can still have rage without it cheaply giving him the power to go up against beings he has no ability to fight otherwise.

Goku's not a douche, and Goku doesn't need to change, but he doesn't become less naïve about the world as he grows up.

It's not butting heads, that implies more than simple disagreement.

No denying the more potential card was dumb, but still it's basically a sin to never have it be fully realized. Tails had this in the comics and he never replaced Sonic. Gohan would have had one last moment on Freeza, and the story would end before we even find out what his full potential is. If the story was ended here, then they shouldn't have made Gohan that special in the beginning. There'd be no need to have him dwarf Goku as a toddler.

A good character grows up and evolves, while the core of who they are stays intact. A character who never changes just remains the same and gets dull. Imagine if Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, and everyone else never grew up. They'd be the same note and it'd be dull. Goku subtly grows more mature, with his last moment being accepting his Saiyan heritage. After that he's literally the same person. Train hard, beat bad guy, happy go lucky.

When the disagreement basically is just "Nuh uh I think" it pretty much is.

[SSJ Human]

I think the Cell Saga was the best place to end, but we all have different views.

[sbk]

"If you're going to have an old fart [Dr. Gero] fight ladies, then it's best to call it a day."

Okay..

I agree with the rest, ending @ Freeza would've been way better. Buu arc, GT and especially BoG/FnF never happening easily trump the few great moments post-Freeza