GT Levels: Theorize and discuss

[dbzfan7]

Moving any GT discussion here, cause it's better here than ending up in an art section. Anyways by all means point out whatever here and go nuts. I believe Goku is so broken early on he's above SSJ GT Vegeta. He seemingly doesn't even need SSJ to fight Gohan and Goten, while Vegeta needed SSJ just for Gohan alone.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'll just quote your last message...

He even says he's gonna kill Gohan. He also can't break free from Gohan and Goten's attack til he uses all his power. Baby even comments on this, trying to push Vegeta's ki to radiate at it's upper limit. Goten also passes out when Baby leaves his body and Gohan didn't hit him, so even then Vegeta may not have KOed them otherwise. Goku showed he could take on SSJ Gohan and Goten no problem. Vegeta shows he can't even take on SSJ Gohan without transforming. If he could, he wouldn't transform and just proceed to roflstomp Gohan. Goku at no point needed to transform at all. He'd use a Kamehameha, but that's far lower than SSJ.

How exactly are you getting there's such a large gap between Base Goku and SS Gohan? Goku can be just barely stronger / on par and the scene works fine. Gohan's blast is enough to knock Goku down and hurt him, and Gohan quickly recovers from Goku's shock wave while still smiling, and Goku has to resort to a KHH. He may not need Super Saiyan, but he's clearly not that much stronger in his base form.

Super Saiyan Vegeta meanwhile is enough to KO / send Gohan flying back just by powering up to full power.

I really see nothing wrong with: Super Saiyan Vegeta >> Base Goku >~ Super Saiyan Gohan > Base Vegeta

Goku's already stronger than everyone, so of course he held back less. Even so Goku clashes even just once are more impressive than anything Vegeta did period. Also this is the same show that had Base Goku tank Omega.

What's the proof Goku was much stronger than Vegeta in this arc? His performance means nothing since 17 was treating everyone like a joke.

[dbzfan7]

I'll just quote your last message...

He even says he's gonna kill Gohan. He also can't break free from Gohan and Goten's attack til he uses all his power. Baby even comments on this, trying to push Vegeta's ki to radiate at it's upper limit. Goten also passes out when Baby leaves his body and Gohan didn't hit him, so even then Vegeta may not have KOed them otherwise. Goku showed he could take on SSJ Gohan and Goten no problem. Vegeta shows he can't even take on SSJ Gohan without transforming. If he could, he wouldn't transform and just proceed to roflstomp Gohan. Goku at no point needed to transform at all. He'd use a Kamehameha, but that's far lower than SSJ.

How exactly are you getting there's such a large gap between Base Goku and SS Gohan? Goku can be just barely stronger / on par and the scene works fine. Gohan's blast is enough to knock Goku down and hurt him, and Gohan quickly recovers from Goku's shock wave while still smiling, and Goku has to resort to a KHH. He may not need Super Saiyan, but he's clearly not that much stronger in his base form.

Super Saiyan Vegeta meanwhile is enough to KO / send Gohan flying back just by powering up to full power.

I really see nothing wrong with: Super Saiyan Vegeta >> Base Goku >~ Super Saiyan Gohan > Base Vegeta

Goku's already stronger than everyone, so of course he held back less. Even so Goku clashes even just once are more impressive than anything Vegeta did period. Also this is the same show that had Base Goku tank Omega.

What's the proof Goku was much stronger than Vegeta in this arc? His performance means nothing since 17 was treating everyone like a joke.

Because Vegeta NEEDS SSJ just to fight SSJ Gohan. Holding back even in that form is still more than Goku needs to use. Just Gohan alone. Goku doesn't need SSJ to take on SSJ Gohan and Goten. Goku even beats them and they revert to base form after he stomps them. Goku resorting to a Kamehameha while fighting Gohan and Goten is far less than resorting to Super Saiyan. Goku is hurt yeah, but not that badly. Just a couple punches and Gohan and Goten lose SSJ. They have no real reason to drop it since they'd lose without the form even more severely. Baby makes Vegeta use his full power, saying the battle is his the moment Vegeta radiates his power to it's upper peak, he wins.

Not even sure it KO's them. Goten was KOed after Baby just left his body. Gohan didn't even have to throw a punch. Just leaving his body may have been enough to KO Gohan. Goku can push away both Super Saiyans without raising his level to the upper peaks of his power.

His performance is more than enough. Even while holding back Goku lands more blows. 17 was disappointed cause Goku couldn't do crap even though he was stronger than everyone else. 17 tested Goku the same way he did everyone else, and in the end Goku while doing better, still wasn't impressive.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because Vegeta NEEDS SSJ just to fight SSJ Gohan. Holding back even in that form is still more than Goku needs to use. Just Gohan alone. Goku doesn't need SSJ to take on SSJ Gohan and Goten. Goku even beats them and they revert to base form after he stomps them. Goku resorting to a Kamehameha while fighting Gohan and Goten is far less than resorting to Super Saiyan. Goku is hurt yeah, but not that badly. Just a couple punches and Gohan and Goten lose SSJ. They have no real reason to drop it since they'd lose without the form even more severely. Baby makes Vegeta use his full power, saying the battle is his the moment Vegeta radiates his power to it's upper peak, he wins.

Yes, Vegeta 'NEEDS' Super Saiyan, but that doesn't make his Super Saiyan weaker than Goku's base form.

If both SS Vegeta and Base Goku at full power are stronger than SS Gohan, then SS Vegeta >> Base Goku >~ SS Goku is a plausible chain, Goku's base being above SS Vegeta is a necessity to make it work.

Yes resorting to a KHH is far less than resorting to Super Saiyan, I'm just saying the KHH proves there isn't a humongous hap between Goku and SS Gohan like you're saying.

Not even sure it KO's them. Goten was KOed after Baby just left his body. Gohan didn't even have to throw a punch. Just leaving his body may have been enough to KO Gohan.

Whether or not it KO'd Gohan, it was still enough to send Gohan flying back the same way Goku did.

Goku can push away both Super Saiyans without raising his level to the upper peaks of his power.

Noted above.

His performance is more than enough.

As I already explained, performance is meaningless when the opponent is toying. Unless you're trying to say Tenshinhan > tired SS Goku?

Even while holding back Goku lands more blows.

What? He landed only one hit.

17 was disappointed cause Goku couldn't do crap even though he was stronger than everyone else. 17 tested Goku the same way he did everyone else, and in the end Goku while doing better, still wasn't impressive.

Yeah, sorry but this is all conjecture. You didn't prove Goku was stronger than Vegeta here, and you didn't prove 17 was 'testing' Goku.

[dbzfan7]

[Stuff]

At this point there's no reason to even discuss this any further. I've already said what I believe. You did the same. You disagree and supported your claims, as have I. I doubt any more pieces of information would be added, and even if they were, I don't find derailing back in forth any fun or a worthwhile discussion. It's just shouting opinions back and forth til someone doesn't feel like doing it anymore. It's not fun, it's dull. Especially considering the topic is based on an incredibly inconsistent show. If that's your side...ok then. Go on to state how much stronger you feel SSJ Vegeta is compared to Base Goku on your stance...that is more interesting to hear than two guys go "Nuh uh cause this is and that".

[supercat]

Base Goku seemed exceedingly powerful in GT compared to everyone else for some reason. The fact that he was able to take on SSJ Gohan and SSJ Goten (both possessed by Baby), while only in his base form indicates that he is basically worlds above them. Unfortunately for Vegeta, because this was not a feat he was able to replicate, it seems plausible that he probably was a good deal weaker than Goku.

However, after the Baby Arc, if we assume that Vegeta kept his Baby boost, then I could see the gap between him and Goku getting significantly smaller.

[Hugo Boss]

@SSJ2FutureGohan, I have seen some of your contributions in another topics and I think this is a more suited place to discuss them here.

I can see that you want a back-up for your instance, but it is getting too complicated to understand how you state some of your points as facts.

A few have caught my attention, like your strict analisis of some quotes. You have adressed that there are some quotes written all the same, but having context to say what is really happening.

Regarding the (hype) line "I've never felt a ki so huge" etc that is always brought and people debating whether it includes the people claiming it or not, maybe Janemba's ki was greater than SS3 Goku's, but his body was still not suited to use his power accordingly. Can't we see it as a possible explanation? What helps in Baby's case is that he is also claiming he has surpassed all the Saiyans. Goku and Baby might not be convinced there was a difference between them until pointing the disadvantage of Goku's small body. After absorbing power from the other Saiyans, couldn't Baby just have obtained power surpassing whatever Goku had in his prime? Vegetto likewise is a form of Goku that depends on Vegeta to exist and vice-versa. For Baby to say that he has also surpassed Vegetto, it means he has obtained a power that eclipses Fusion and Potara, but I admit he is not quite including/excluding the level Vegetto was when he fought Boo.

Another thing that caught my attention is what you said about Vegeta's cry in Janemba's movie. Didn't he just realize that he couldn't compete with Goku anymore? Since Vegeta is not allowed to use his body and Goku has SS3 on top of that. I mean, in that light what makes Goku in that movie clearly stronger than his Boo Arc counterpart that I'm missing? He could be as strong as he was back then or stronger, it depends on your preference.

[BlazingBarrrager]

Something I hate about GT Goku is how reckless he's gotten in fights. Take Super 17 for example. He knew something was up when his ki attacks weren't working on 17, and what does he do? Spam more ki attacks! Seriously in DBZ Goku was a bit more tactical than this. I guess training with Uub made him hit his head one too many times?

[Cetra]

Goku even said in the original he had to do that because if thatb would not work, nothing would. So regardless of him being right or not, he had a reason for what he did.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku even said in the original he had to do that because if thatb would not work, nothing would. So regardless of him being right or not, he had a reason for what he did.

He could used his fist instead of giving 17 energy...

[Cetra]

Obviously Golu thought that was not enough otherwise he would not explained it like that.

[Rocketman]

Wasn't he trying to overload Super 17 like he did to Yakon?

[Cetra]

That's pretty much what you can hear out of the original. Or at least "only defeat him with strong energy". So as 17 was able to absorb energy the only real conclusion is that there might be a limit to be reached by using stronger attacks and actually inflict damage to him. Or, as you say, just overload him with energy so he is full. Whatever might be the case.

Gokuu: "So you really do absorb my energy."
Suupa-Juunana: "And you kept attacking me just to find out?"
Gokuu: "No, but if that does not work nothing will."

Something along the line. So Gokuu did really not attack just to find it out but his main intention was to give the best he had as in his eyes it was the only way to stop 17. And in the process it was still confirmed for him that he was right with his assumption (which he pretty much thought was right anyway but he thought there was no other way so his main drive was the thought that he had no other choice). Of course we can debate now why he did not just try to throw a Genkidama but I could also debate why Whis does need to use some Time Reversal when it is not necessary.

[NeoKING]

Correct. Essentially, in the Japanese version it's explained that Goku was trying to overload him with energy, a plan that backfired terribly when he fired the 10X Kamehameha.

[InfernalVegito]

Well 17 almost looked like he'd burst from that attack, so I guess if it was a bit more powerful, Goku would have won.