If you had to choose one major character to die in Super...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And half happening doesn't count when the second half is blowjobs.

What blowjobs? There are still 2 guys much stronger than him, plus many more possibly existing in other universes, and he lost in all of his fights in both new movies.

[Rocketman]

What blowjobs? There are still 2 guys much stronger than him, plus many more possibly existing in other universes, and he lost in all of his fights in both new movies.

Losing without losing. Compare vs Billy to how Goku lost to Vegeta or #19.

Are you forgetting what Vegeta did after Beerus slapped Bulma?

I try to, yes, since that's a whole different kettle of shit.

And in RoF Vegeta is now at the same level as Goku, or very very close.

And GT had SS4 Vegeta. Didn't change the focus, did it?

It baffles me that you picked the one film where Goku beats himself up over undeserved power

Yes, yes, the poor little hero, so special and cool he's suddenly disgusted at shitloads of free power despite his trump card for the past two decades being "Share your energy with me!" and eagerly going into fusion.

[ABED]

Rocketman, you seem to have this disgust with Goku over being the center and focus. Why, it's his story? It's like being irritated that Superman gets all the focus in his own stories.

[Faustus]

"Eagerly"? I suggest you re-read the Boo arc because he's only willing to fuse with Vegeta so long as Boo has absorptions, and the genki dama is a last resort - he even requests as he does it that Boo be reincarnated so that they can fight fairly, one on one.

I try to, yes, since that's a whole different kettle of shit.

Then all you're doing is cherry-picking your complaints.

[Rocketman]

Rocketman, you seem to have this disgust with Goku over being the center and focus. Why, it's his story? It's like being irritated that Superman gets all the focus in his own stories.

I'm disgusted with Godku. Not just the now-literal forms, but the super awesomecoolbestest version of the character that has dominated the series since the manga ended. The Goku of the movies and GT who sucks the life out of the rest of the cast and is the Only One Who Can Do Anything.

"Eagerly"? I suggest you re-read the Boo arc because he's only willing to fuse with Vegeta so long as Boo has absorptions, and the genki dama is a last resort - he even requests as he does it that Boo be reincarnated so that they can fight fairly, one on one.

He brings up fusing with Vegeta or Gohan at the start, and constantly begs Vegeta to fuse until he thinks Buu's gotten weak enough to actually fight.

[Faustus]

until he thinks Buu's gotten weak enough to actually fight.

Except that's explicitly not the reason Goku gives the Kaioshin as he preps for battle, which is that Boo is now alone and has nobody absorbed.

And I don't get it - are you now trying to argue that Goku never had a problem with borrowing the power of others? When we have precedent of that going back to Freeza and at least as far back as Piccolo Jr?

[ABED]

I'm disgusted with Godku. Not just the now-literal forms, but the super awesomecoolbestest version of the character that has dominated the series since the manga ended. The Goku of the movies and GT who sucks the life out of the rest of the cast and is the Only One Who Can Do Anything.

It seems placed onto the character and not on the writer(s) and he's always dominated the series, it's his series.

[fadeddreams5]

It's honestly not so much that Goku gets the spotlight; it's the fact that he's become waaaayyyyy too strong. In general, power levels are absurd now, and everything has gotten so redundant, which is why changing his role to teacher, and passing on the torch to someone weaker would be a good thing. That, or just make one final saga that is over-the-top and crazy.

In Dragon Ball, Goku was a kid with above average strength. There was humor to his feats, he was vulnerable, and was "human" enough for the adventure theme to work since he couldn't fly at the speed of light or instantly teleport anywhere.

In DBZ, where everyone became universal level in terms of strength, Goku was usually out of commission or doing his own thing. Saiyan saga: Dead. Namek saga: In ship. Frieza arc: Healing. Android saga: In bed. Buu saga: Dead. Meanwhile, everyone else had a particular role, besides acting as cannon fodder, to fill until he arrived. When Goku showed up, it was fucking awesome because he always increased in strength until he finally became a SSJ, and later exceeded that in the Cell saga without really changing forms. SSJ3 was already jumping the shark, but it looked cool and had limitations, and he did not hog the spotlight until the end. Part of the theme of that saga was passing on the torch, but Toriyama changed his mind. By then end of it, they beat a being the most supreme gods could not, making them the strongest in the freakin' universe.

Where do we go from here while Goku's alive and kicking? Bring back another new or old foe? Have him transform into ANOTHER mode? Fusion? So far, none of these new movies are working, imo. And GT was worse. It's just really redundant, and they need to think outside the box with Super.

[ABED]

Goku didn't hog the spotlight, he's not real. He's given the spotlight by Toriyama.

Meanwhile, everyone else had a particular role, besides acting as cannon fodder
Not really true. The humans often had little to do besides be someone who got killed or hurt by the bad guy. At their best, they were temporary destractions for the villains.

By then end of it, they beat a being the most supreme gods could not, making them the strongest in the freakin' universe.

Not exclusive to that arc. Goku defeated Piccolo where Kami either wouldn't or couldn't, and he defeated Freeza when even Kaio couldn't.

I agree that they need to think outside of the box, but killing off Goku for the nth time or trying to push someone else into the lead role are bad ideas. Yu Yu Hakusho did a good job of keeping all of its characters relevant and didn't just rely on ever escalating powers to up the stakes.

[fadeddreams5]

Meanwhile, everyone else had a particular role, besides acting as cannon fodder
Not really true. The humans often had little to do besides be someone who got killed or hurt by the bad guy. At their best, they were temporary destractions for the villains.

The entire saiyan saga established a bond between Gohan and Piccolo, which resulted in the latter changing. Everyone contributed to the battle against Vegeta.

The Namek saga was the story of Gohan, Krillin, Bulma, and Vegeta. Goku barely had a role.

The entirety of the Android saga had very little Goku. In the end, Gohan was the one to win too. Piccolo discovered Cell. Vegeta killed 19 and allowed Gohan to kill Cell. Krillin and Trunk destroyed the Cell fetus. Krillin had the androids' control and developed feelings for 18. Yamcha took care of Goku. Tien allowed 18 to escape. Trunks started the freakin' saga. And so on. >.>

And the Buu saga also gave everyone else more prominent roles than Goku, specifically Gohan, Trunks, and Goten. Here, I guess you can argue they had useless roles since Goku could have handled everything from that start if he wanted to, but the entire saga is a mess, honestly. This was not the case in the other sagas where, without the others, they'd all be dead.

In the movies, all everyone does is charge into an enemy and drop like flies. They barely have a role except wait for Goku. In F, for example, if the Z fighters were not present to fight the 1000 soldiers, Goku could do their job on his own, kill them all in one shot, beat Frieza, and use the dragon balls to revive anyone killed. Same story. Fin.

Not exclusive to that arc. Goku defeated Piccolo where Kami either wouldn't or couldn't

Yeah, but they were only the strongest on their planet and didn't possess the crazy feats they do by the end of DBZ.

, and he defeated Freeza when even Kaio couldn't.

Okay, this is true. But the Buu saga expanded the universe to the extreme, and they were now dealing with primordial magical and mythical beings. One of which is the strongest in the universe, as implied by the highest ranking gods--the REAL top of the food chain who monitor the entire universe. Anything above this now.... is bullshit. Toriyama himself realizes this, which is why he made up the 12 universe stuff. But increasing their power beyond this is now just redundant, especially considering how, after the Cell saga, they only become more powerful by word of mouth or beating up villains others can't, and not actual feats (e.g. moving a planet). Goku actually seems weaker in F than he ever did in the series, ironically.

but killing off Goku for the nth time or trying to push someone else into the lead role are bad ideas.

Eh. I don't want him to die or be secondary to another. But I wouldn't mind a co-star either. If Gohan's character was better developed, I think he could have made a good one. Seeing a student and teacher relationship between Goku and Uub would be great, imo. Anything that changes Goku's role a bit. The character is honestly boring to me now. We've been there, done that with him, and he's not really developing any further.

Yu Yu Hakusho did a good job of keeping all of its characters relevant and didn't just rely on ever escalating powers to up the stakes.

To be fair, all the characters had their own unique abilities.

[Doctor.]

Okay, this is true. But the Buu saga expanded the universe to the extreme, and they were now dealing with primordial magical and mythical beings. One of which is the strongest in the universe, as implied by the highest ranking gods--the REAL top of the food chain who monitor the entire universe. Anything above this now.... is bullshit. Toriyama himself realizes this, which is why he made up the 12 universe stuff. But increasing their power beyond this is now just redundant, especially considering how, after the Cell saga, they only become more powerful by word of mouth or beating up villains others can't, and not actual feats (e.g. moving a planet). Goku actually seems weaker in F than he ever did in the series, ironically.

Well, one thing I wouldn't mind to see is if Dragon Ball took the Hunter x Hunter or Toriko approach. As in, our universe is just a really small and weak one compared to all the other ones, which are really huge and possess much more powerful beings. I think that would justify a power-up for most of the cast, strong opponents wouldn't be hard to find nor would it seem like an asspull and everyone could have their own separate match-ups. The current universe is really poorly explored but it's too late now, they've already went as far as they can possibly go in universe 7.

[ABED]

Yeah, but they were only the strongest on their planet and didn't possess the crazy feats they do by the end of DBZ.

That's only a change of degrees not essence. Kami's still God which is a fairly meaningless title.

The entire saiyan saga established a bond between Gohan and Piccolo, which resulted in the latter changing. Everyone contributed to the battle against Vegeta.
Not everyone. Tenshinhan, Chaozu, and Yamcha did nothing that affected the outcome of the fight. The Saiyan arc wasn't centered on Gohan's bond with Piccolo. It was that AND Goku's training with Kaio.

The entirety of the Android saga had very little Goku.

It wasn't for the better either. Gohan was the one to win, but it was essentially Goku with Gohan as his proxy. Seriously, Gohan had to be told exactly what to do, including to fight Cell when what he was going to do was lay down and die because he thought it was hopeless. I'm fine with characters contributing, but Goku is the main hero and the big gun. Like in Superman, his supporting cast helps out, but at the end of the day, it's Superman who saves the day because it's his story.

Goku barely had a role.

He did, it was building to the inevitable battle between Goku and Freeza and his friends did so little to Freeza except stall him.

I'm well aware that Goku was kept out of action but it's not for the reasons you're implying. It's because Toriyama kept trying to keep Goku apart from the villain until the end showdown. He got lazy and kept him out of the story in all 4 arcs until the end.

the REAL top of the food chain who monitor the entire universe. Anything above this now.... is bullshit.

And the revelation of Kaioshin's wasn't BS?

And YYH's use of its characters had little to do with their unique abilities, it was use of characters and fleshing their arcs out. The final arc was about personal stakes for each of them, and the writer was smart enough to keep Kuwabara out of the final arc because it wouldn't have been organic to the story.

Eh. I don't want him to die or be secondary to another. But I wouldn't mind a co-star either. If Gohan's character was better developed, I think he could have made a good one. Seeing a student and teacher relationship between Goku and Uub would be great, imo. Anything that changes Goku's role a bit. The character is honestly boring to me now. We've been there, done that with him, and he's not really developing any further.

But there's nothing stopping Goku from growing and learning some. Gohan wasn't better developed. Both characters are very clearly characterized, and Gohan did change more, but he was also given the whole "Now his power is drawn out. No, NOW his power is drawn out fully. NO, NOW his power if fully drawn out." That's not development, it's lazy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Losing without losing. Compare vs Billy to how Goku lost to Vegeta or #19.

He lost without losing against Vegeta as well, because Gohan, Kuririn, and Yajirobe came to rescue him, and he managed to . As for #19, he only lost because he was unlucky to have the virus strike him at that point.

I'm disgusted with Godku. Not just the now-literal forms, but the super awesomecoolbestest version of the character that has dominated the series since the manga ended. The Goku of the movies and GT who sucks the life out of the rest of the cast and is the Only One Who Can Do Anything.

But this is how Goku was always, except for when Gohan had taken over. He was the super strong boy in chapter one, he was the super prodigy that could mimic any technique & learn the Kamehameha in a moment, while it took the legendary Kame-sennin 50 years, he managed to rival him after 8 months of training, and completed Karin's training in 3 days, while it took 3 years for the legendary Kame-sennin. He kept getting stronger & stronger to the point that his friends could never catch up to him, he survived the Super God Water, while 12 other legendary masters died after drinking it, he surpassed the God of Earth & won the Tenkaichi Budokai, he mastered the Kaio-ken, which not even its inventor, the King of the Gods, couldn't master, and surpassed him as well, he rivaled Vegeta, the Super-Elite Prince of the Saiyans, and he surpassed Freeza, the strongest guy in the universe, by becoming a Super Saiyan, the first in a thousand years, he managed to surpass Super Saiyan twice & he realized their weaknesses instantly, he mastered Super Saiyan & reached a new level of power, he made Gohan the strongest in the universe, and he managed to surpass Super Saiyan like Gohan did, and even reached the final stage, Super Saiyan 3, and had surpassed at that point the God of the Gods in his regular Super Saiyan form. Since chapter 1, he was turning his enemies into his friends, and everyone adored him and believed that he would manage something just because he is Goku.

Seriously, literally nothing has changed with how they treat Goku. Goku was always the miracle warrior that everyone loves & believes into.

[Ushabtis]

except for when Gohan had taken over.

wasn't Gohan lead character for like....20 minutes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

except for when Gohan had taken over.

wasn't Gohan lead character for like....20 minutes.

He was the main protagonist from Cell Games, to the point he got absorbed by Boo.

[TheGmGoken]

except for when Gohan had taken over.

wasn't Gohan lead character for like....20 minutes.

He was the main protagonist from Cell Games, to the point he got absorbed by Boo.

People tend to forget that Gohan was overshadowing Goku vs Vegeta round 2. We barely saw it in the manga due to focus on Gohan. The anime however had Goku vs Vegeta overshadow Gohan.

[fadeddreams5]

That's only a change of degrees not essence. Kami's still God which is a fairly meaningless title.

Well, yeah, but my point is that by the end of the Buu arc, we've seen it all as far as power increases go (Goku started off as a kid with above average strength, became the strongest in his planet, transforms into a legend, and by the end of it all is able to generate ki that is felt throughout the universe and teleport anywhere instantly). At least until they decide to go more over the top with fights and show crazier feats. F failed to do this, despite him being infinitely stronger, and actually made Goku seem weaker. Regardless, it's now pretty redundant and harder to create a good story because of this.

And as for the role of others, my point is that they did have meaningful roles throughout the series. I understand that Goku is always the savior and also has his own role to fill. I don't mind that. Wouldn't mind others getting the kill here and there either. In something like F, the same exact story could be told without any of the rest of the cast (mainly, Tien, Roshi, Gohan, Krillin, Jaco, and Piccolo).

And the revelation of Kaioshin's wasn't BS?

Sort of. Still, they're the creators. Nothing can be above that. Except maybe the creator of the creators (or in this case, kaiju trees), which I wouldn't mind either, honestly. Wouldn't be surprised if a kaioshin of the multiverse is introduced either.

And YYH's use of its characters had little to do with their unique abilities, it was use of characters and fleshing their arcs out. The final arc was about personal stakes for each of them, and the writer was smart enough to keep Kuwabara out of the final arc because it wouldn't have been organic to the story.

I misread. I agree. The series handles its characters well, and they all have their own personal stakes.

But the series did rely on escalating powers too. I mean, right after the Dark Tournament saga, they introduced a ranking system for demons. All of a sudden, Sensui is introduced and he's stronger than Toguro. Then, the three kings are stronger than Sensui. If the series continued, it'd be no different from DBZ in that respect; we'd have a villain stronger than the three kings. Soon enough, Yusuke would have universal level strength.

But there's nothing stopping Goku from growing and learning some. Gohan wasn't better developed. Both characters are very clearly characterized, and Gohan did change more, but he was also given the whole "Now his power is drawn out. No, NOW his power is drawn out fully. NO, NOW his power if fully drawn out." That's not development, it's lazy.

I never said Gohan was better developed. I said he should have been better developed after the Cell Games.

I honestly question whether they can continue progressing Goku's character. I don't think there's much left to do there except explore his role as a teacher.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I try to, yes, since that's a whole different kettle of shit.

"Beerus was too strong! Some of the other Z-senshi other than Goku should have been able to hurt him!"

"Vegeta shouldn't have been able to hurt him, Vegeta isn't supposed to be that strong!"

[ABED]

But the series did rely on escalating powers too. I mean, right after the Dark Tournament saga, they introduced a ranking system for demons. All of a sudden, Sensui is introduced and he's stronger than Toguro. Then, the three kings are stronger than Sensui. If the series continued, it'd be no different from DBZ in that respect; we'd have a villain stronger than the three kings. Soon enough, Yusuke would have universal level strength.

But Yusuke's battle wasn't to become stronger, it was to stop a war that could spillover into the other realms and he needed to resolve his own internal conflicts (i.e. where does he belong, who is he why does he fight?) The kings were it as far as escalation went. The end of the arc wasn't even about defeating them. Much like Goku's fighting spirit brought out the best in guys like Tenshinhan, Yusuke brought out the best in his friends and Yomi and Mukuro.

F failed to do this, despite him being infinitely stronger

I honestly think the series failed to do it after the Freeza arc.

I honestly question whether they can continue progressing Goku's character.

I don't know where they can go either, but I'm not a writer.

He lost without losing against Vegeta as well, because Gohan, Kuririn, and Yajirobe came to rescue him, and he managed to . As for #19, he only lost because he was unlucky to have the virus strike him at that point.

No, he clearly lost and was outmatched. He was rescued because he lost. Goku was defeated by Piccolo Daimao in their first confrontation. For him to lose as you want him to against Vegeta, he'd basically have to die. Why do you have a problem with Goku winning most of the time? He's the main character.

[fadeddreams5]

But Yusuke's battle wasn't to become stronger, it was to stop a war that could spillover into the other realms and he needed to resolve his own internal conflicts .

Yeah, but to stop the war, they devised a tournament in which they had to fight stronger opponents than in the past, and had to train for. =P