Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Neon Z
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Neon Z » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:09 pm

Luke Groundwalker wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.

Besides ain't GT getting lots of stuff thanks to DB Heroes
I never cared for GT myself, I just think it's silly as a concept that somehow TOEI/Toriyama and some parties want to erase GT from the series all together. Especially since GT is literally put in everything when it comes to merchandise still, and I highly doubt anyone who has any official capacity in distributing the series has any interest in devaluing something they can still make a lot of money off of.

It's also silly that the same people who believe this yet give a pass on other TOEI originals such as Broly and Cooler being shoved into everything.
They only started pushing GT like this because they couldn't keep exploiting the same Z material though and needed new content, especially in DB Heroes' case. Now, they'll have an all new series with new content that they'll be able to push for merchandising and games, rather than an old series that most children nowadays didn't watch. Now, they're even using DB Online material, even though that's a canceled MMO with a timeline completely incompatible with GT (and that already has some differences from the new movies too).

Also, something people usually overlook is that GT not only wasn't made by Toriyama, it wasn't made by the anime's Z staff either. Director and writers were all different.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Luke Groundwalker » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:28 pm

Neon Z wrote:
Luke Groundwalker wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.

Besides ain't GT getting lots of stuff thanks to DB Heroes
I never cared for GT myself, I just think it's silly as a concept that somehow TOEI/Toriyama and some parties want to erase GT from the series all together. Especially since GT is literally put in everything when it comes to merchandise still, and I highly doubt anyone who has any official capacity in distributing the series has any interest in devaluing something they can still make a lot of money off of.

It's also silly that the same people who believe this yet give a pass on other TOEI originals such as Broly and Cooler being shoved into everything.
They only started pushing GT like this because they couldn't keep exploiting the same Z material though and needed new content, especially in DB Heroes' case. Now, they'll have an all new series with new content that they'll be able to push for merchandising and games, rather than an old series that most children nowadays didn't watch. Now, they're even using DB Online material, even though that's a canceled MMO with a timeline completely incompatible with GT (and that already has some differences from the new movies too).

Also, something people usually overlook is that GT not only wasn't made by Toriyama, it wasn't made by the anime's Z staff either. Director and writers were all different.
Huh? TOEI pushing GT in their merchandise is in no way a new thing. I mean, I will agree it's a byproduct of a lack of Z content, just as DBO's inclusion is a byproduct of a lack of GT content for Heroes to explore (which shows exactly how high it is on their priority list). But GT has always been a pretty huge merchandising brand and has been in everything where appropriate. Hell GT gets priority over the original Dragonball anime in most merchandise.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Ushabtis » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:31 pm

Neon Z wrote:an old series that most children nowadays didn't watch.
I never get this logic. I know anime is gear towards kids but how is DBZ one of them? the protag is a 40+ year man with a wife and 2 kids, with one of Goku's kids having his own wife and child. Most of the cast are at least in their 30s (with a few exceptions.) How are children in Japan/world supposed to relate to a main character like this? Yeah Goku is a fun protag but isn't anime supposed to be targeting children? We have Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, etc. have young protags dealing with some problems that some average kids deal with. Emotions, family problems, romance, etc. Goku is far past these problems since he is an adult and for the most part never had to deal with these issues as a child anyways. Are they trying to capitalize on the popularity of DBZ thinking the name alone will be enough to ride it to completion? Or is it just the adventure Goku will travel and the alien monsters he will punch to a pulp over the course of the show.

or the more likely answer, I'm just looking at this the completely wrong way...
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:51 pm

Neon Z wrote: Also, something people usually overlook is that GT not only wasn't made by Toriyama, it wasn't made by the anime's Z staff either. Director and writers were all different.
If they kept the same team then chances are it would've turned out a lot better then it did.

Did they ever say why they got a new team for it ?
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:54 pm

I never get this logic. I know anime is gear towards kids but how is DBZ one of them? the protag is a 40+ year man with a wife and 2 kids, with one of Goku's kids having his own wife and child. Most of the cast are at least in their 30s (with a few exceptions.)
In Japan, home video releases are very pricey compare to here in the US. I doubt most kids in Japan knows about the series outside of Kai and the new movies unless they play Heroes or Xenoverse. Heck in Japan, most kids that watch the newer Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Ultraman and Gundam shows never seen the older shows from those series from over a decade ago from what I've been told. I was even told the kids in Japan that saw Godzilla 2014 last year didn't even see the older Godzilla films from 1954 - 2004. Not everyone can shell out $60 on DVD's and Blu-Rays.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheOverlyMadHatter » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:56 am

I'd imagine it'd be a continuation of the recent movies, since those are what's popular right now.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:05 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:In Japan, home video releases are very pricey compare to here in the US. I doubt most kids in Japan knows about the series outside of Kai and the new movies unless they play Heroes or Xenoverse. Heck in Japan, most kids that watch the newer Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Ultraman and Gundam shows never seen the older shows from those series from over a decade ago from what I've been told. I was even told the kids in Japan that saw Godzilla 2014 last year didn't even see the older Godzilla films from 1954 - 2004. Not everyone can shell out $60 on DVD's and Blu-Rays.
No, kids in Japan have extremely easy access to the series beyond things like Heroes, Xenoverse or Kai. A giant portion of anime in Japan is just a giant commercial for merchandise and isn't typically what is bought by fans if they want to own a franchise's story. They buy the manga, which is much cheaper and prevalent.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:57 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.
I think it's nostalgia. I think most fans grew up with GT on Toonami and it left a special impact on them.
There's not big nostalgia playing here nor sudden re-appreciation for GT. It's what it always been, mediocre series with some awful concepts that should never been executed and some legitimately great concepts that defend themselves regardless of execution.

What changed is the notion that Toriyama's sequel/continuation would be infinitely better than GT in every aspect by default. Most don't think so anymore, both BOG and ROF are far, far from perfect. We'll see how Super goes with more traditional long-spanning format that Toriyama is used to, but a lot of the questionable storytelling or design decisions in recent 2 movies don't have much to do with run-time of the format.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Deathbringer » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:18 pm

Why do people seem to act like being canon is some sort of golden standard that can make GT better somehow? Even if it was canon no ones gonna change their opinion of it, they might even be more turned off from it.

The thing I really want from Super is if halfway through the series it goes past the EOZ storyline and continues onwards (and no, GT fans, it's not because I desperately want a knight in shining ToriyARMOUR to come and rescue the canon from the clutches of GT. I just want to see where Goku and Oob went and what exactly he was training him for)

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sbk » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:33 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.
It's because of the two new movies..

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:57 am

So Super seems like it's after ROF. I guess it's still possible that a second saga in Super can have a time skip after DBZ. I still find it odd that people think that they should not ignore GT because that would stop producing GT merchandise if Super ignores GT.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Blackstripe » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:56 pm

You know, Toei isn't going to start burning all of its GT merchandise if Super ignores it. They aren't going to tell Gen Fukunaga to come to your house and smash all of your GT DVDs or anything.

Akira Toriyama said that GT took place in a "different dimension" than his work, which is basically a polite way of saying it isn't canon to the main timeline, IE the one Super will be taking place in. It seems pretty damn straightforward to me.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:38 pm

People overect if Super ignores GT for good then GT is going to be erase forever on the face of the Earth :roll: .
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:13 pm

Blackstripe wrote: Akira Toriyama said that GT took place in a "different dimension" than his work, which is basically a polite way of saying it isn't canon to the main timeline, IE the one Super will be taking place in. It seems pretty damn straightforward to me.
He did not say any of this and any meaning people draw out of statements are just made up.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:25 pm

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Blackstripe » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:46 am

The idea seems to be the same though, given that he seems to be ignoring it now. Given it's unpopularity in Japan, I don't see any acknowledgement of it's canonicity being forthcoming.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Mystic Tien » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:40 am

Blackstripe wrote:
The idea seems to be the same though, given that he seems to be ignoring it now. Given it's unpopularity in Japan, I don't see any acknowledgement of it's canonicity being forthcoming.
All of it is speculation though. All is said that GT is a side-story. And for something being in different dimension, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. All movies including Evolution happened.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Blackstripe » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:46 am

Mystic Tien wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:
The idea seems to be the same though, given that he seems to be ignoring it now. Given it's unpopularity in Japan, I don't see any acknowledgement of it's canonicity being forthcoming.
All of it is speculation though. All is said that GT is a side-story. And for something being in different dimension, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. All movies including Evolution happened.
Really? Evolution happened? Even Akira Toriyama outright said he hated it, didn't he?

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:24 am

Blackstripe wrote:Really? Evolution happened? Even Akira Toriyama outright said he hated it, didn't he?
It still "happened" in that it's a thing that exists, a thing that we can talk about, and is a thing that you can still go purchase and analyse.

If you want to take it even further, you can lop it all into a giant multiverse.

It's fine to say "it doesn't count" in relation to, say, the manga... but let's not cover our eyes and ears and run around screaming "LA LA LA LA NO I WON'T TALK ABOUT IT." I mean, it's fine if you don't want to talk about it, but other people are free to, and they can make whatever crazy theories they want!
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Mystic Tien » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:30 am

Blackstripe wrote:
Really? Evolution happened? Even Akira Toriyama outright said he hated it, didn't he?
As the creator, as far as the scenario and characterization are concerned, I get a feeling of “Whaa?”, but the director, everyone in the cast, and the crew on-set are ultra high-caliber.

Maybe it’s correct for both me and all the fans to appreciate this as a “new Dragon Ball” in a separate dimension.

With the power on-set, perhaps it will even have become a great masterpiece!

I am greatly anticipating it!!
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Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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