Is DBZA Goku better than current DBZ Goku?

[Doctor.]

Is that wrong? I think it can be and there are character who it can follow to achieve that. Goku being one of them if fundamental changes are made to his character. I hope they do in Super, I think it can really be great.

No, of course not. I'm just saying that Dragon Ball isn't the type of series that likes to explore the minds of its characters too much, and that will, unfortunately, be hard to change.

[ABED]

I think that's being a little unfair, during the Cell Games he becomes aware of that power thinking back to the moments he's lost control and makes the decision that it's something he doesn't want to relive for several reasons. Of course Cell pushes him to far then, but its something layered into the story from early on.

That's more than a fair assessment. He thinks back to going into blind rages but that's not him fearing his power.

And I agree Gohan does learn to outlive his self-doubt to an extent but we never see that action or evolution, in the buu saga he's all gung-ho to fight despite his nature which is a plot hole of that saga.

Not really. After the Saiyan arc, he's gung ho about going to Namek, defend the world against the Cyborgs, train with his father. It's not his nature to love battle, but he enjoys helping.

Whereas with Goku and Vegeta's desire to fight it becomes the Goku and Vegeta show and all they do is fight fight fight.

Which isn't a terrible idea in a show centered around fighting. We know there are going to be a lot of fights, so why is the main character not wanting to involve himself a good idea when we know he will?

they would never give Goku that realization that he hasn't been a good father in the past

He has said explicitly that he wasn't a great father or husband. I don't think it's a fair assessment, he's not terrible, but certainly could be better.

But overconfidence doesn't work when you win all your fights. It played well with Vegeta's character because he mostly got his butt kicked, but Goku always wins so how can I find his overconfidence interesting when that's the case.

But he doesn't always win. He needed help defeating Vegeta and Buu, and he didn't defeat Beerus. One of my favorite moments about Goku is that he was not sure if he could in fact defeat Vegeta but was going to anyways because there was no other option and he loves a good fight. Contrast that with Gohan who is about to let the world end after Cell shatters his arm.

[NitroEX]

Past the Cell arc (and maybe even the Freeza arc) Goku's character didn't have much left that was worth exploring in my opinion. I think at this point the writers are too safe with him and they're just retreading the same ground. All the new transformations are a thinly veiled attempt to hide this by giving him a new coat of paint.

I'm not sure if I can say the DBZA's version is better as I doubt I'd have liked him if he had been portrayed like that from the start but I see what you're saying and there's some truth to it. Goku's character can still be interesting but I've personally become very bored with him carrying the show. There's only so many glass ceilings I can see him shatter before it just becomes absurd and a parody of itself.

[LuckyCat]

I just wanted to point out that at least in Japanese, Goku comes off as sounding pretty uneducated/naive compared to others. He also uses a ton of slang and slurred speech. (Compare it maybe to a redneck speaking in the U.S.?)

If anything, FUNi projected too much Superman on Goku and DBZA doesn't have that problem as much.

[90sDBZ]

Contrast that with Gohan who is about to let the world end after Cell shatters his arm.

I think Gohan's reluctance at that point was more about Goku's death than the damage to his arm. On Namek Gohan had watched Recoome take down Vegeta and Krillin easily, but still fought him head on and refused to give up until his neck got broken. After nearly getting killed by 2nd Form Frieza and getting healed by Dende he was about to charge right back in and give it another shot on his own before Piccolo arrived and intervened.

[ABED]

Contrast that with Gohan who is about to let the world end after Cell shatters his arm.

I think Gohan's reluctance at that point was more about Goku's death than the damage to his arm. On Namek Gohan had watched Recoome take down Vegeta and Krillin easily, but still fought him head on and refused to give up until his neck got broken. After nearly getting killed by 2nd Form Freeza and getting healed by Dende he was about to charge right back in and give it another shot on his own before Piccolo arrived and intervened.

So compound the problem by giving up? I should've been clearer, I didn't mean to imply that it was the arm shattering that was the cause of his reluctance to fight. It might have been a contributing factor, but his sadness making him not want to fight is unappealing for the supposed hero of the story. He doesn't even have the attitude of going down swinging.

Back to the original post, I think Vegeta's more complex than Gohan. Gohan's pretty simple, what you see is what you get.

his story left incomplete in favor of a protagonists who is impossible as an audience member to build a relationship towards because there is no life in Goku.

I can only assume you mean the audience can't relate to Goku, but so what? How many people can relate to James Bond? He's immensely popular despite being good at damn near anything and could get a girl with almost a snap of a finger. I'm not sure what you mean there's no life in Goku. Lastly, Gohan's story is complete. Just because Toriyama continues to write that he has even more hidden power doesn't make his arc less complete. Hell, I'd argue it's complete by the end of the Saiyan arc.

[gohann]

Don't know much about DBZA but from what the OP described, DBZA Goku is worse. This is the only thing I really agreed with in the OP:

"Even more his best character is Gohan, who is the most complex, colorful, and deep character in the entire DBZ Universe"

[fadeddreams5]

Past the Cell arc (and maybe even the Freeza arc) Goku's character didn't have much left that was worth exploring in my opinion. I think at this point the writers are too safe with him and they're just retreading the same ground. All the new transformations are a thinly veiled attempt to hide this by giving him a new coat of paint.

I'm not sure if I can say the DBZA's version is better as I doubt I'd have liked him if he had been portrayed like that from the start but I see what you're saying and there's some truth to it. Goku's character can still be interesting but I've personally become very bored with him carrying the show. There's only so many glass ceilings I can see him shatter before it just becomes absurd and a parody of itself.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

So compound the problem by giving up? I should've been clearer, I didn't mean to imply that it was the arm shattering that was the cause of his reluctance to fight. It might have been a contributing factor, but his sadness making him not want to fight is unappealing for the supposed hero of the story. He doesn't even have the attitude of going down swinging.

It was one instance. He's an 11 year old boy who just lost his father, witnessed the villain behind his death return stronger than before, saw as his friend was killed, and lost an arm. All because of his actions. People counted on him to win, and not only did he fail, but he made things worse. He was completely and utterly demoralized and guilty; he wasn't thinking straight at that moment.

After this fight, he could have been developed into a confident character that doesn't need his hand held, but before they could, there was a 7 year gap and a new Gohan introduced that is basically his own character. He was never given the chance to become a better character; he was changed into something different instead.

[The Desert Bandit]

I kinda get irked when people say that DBZA is better/did something better than the original. Its kinda like an insult to the content its based off of. However, unlike most people who spew that kind of nonsense, you actually make a good point. While Goku's charm derives from his innocence or his will to break any limit, he does lack any inner-conflicts or character development later on in the series.

Despite this, we need to understand; During Dragon Ball, Goku actually went through character development. This almost leads me to believe that there is not much else for Goku to go through. He is already developed. I imagine that Akira Toriyama couldn't think of much else to add to his most popular protagonist at this point. Same with Vegeta, where in the new movies, he isn't showing much character development, as he has already undergone all the development he needed through Z, up to the Buu Saga. Plus, I agree that, as much as I love Funimation, they have made Goku sound more like Superman as opposed to the Japanese version.

I personally feel that Goku in the original is superior to his DBZA counterpart, mostly because while Goku is naive and uneducated, I wouldn't say he is stupid. At least not as stupid as TFS makes him out to be. Plus, over the course of the Android Saga onward, I wouldn't say Goku was constantly waited on to save the day. Gohan, Vegeta, and Gotenks took would share in that spotlight, but other than waiting for Goku to fire the Spirit Bomb in the Buu Saga, I would say that they never really waited for him.

[ABED]

It was one instance. He's an 11 year old boy who just lost his father, witnessed the villain behind his death return stronger than before, saw as his friend was killed, and lost an arm. All because of his actions. People counted on him to win, and not only did he fail, but he made things worse. He was completely and utterly demoralized and guilty; he wasn't thinking straight at that moment.

It was a big moment and it would've been okay if he didn't need his hand held the ENTIRE time. That's not the actions of a great main hero. And no, THIS was supposed to be the culmination of his development. You don't put him into this position, have him need his hand held and then make him develop later. His development leads to his heroic moment, not the other way around.

There's only so many glass ceilings I can see him shatter before it just becomes absurd and a parody of itself.

The EXACT same thing could be said for Gohan.

I don't think Goku needs character development to remain interesting anymore than I think Batman and Superman need to change.

[Polyphase Avatron]

A purely external conflict can be just as interesting as an internal one, it all depends on execution. The problem with Superman isn't that he's "perfect" it's that he's written too powerful so it's hard to create good obstacles for him. Sure, Goku's incredibly strong but there's no shortage of strong beings for Goku to fight.

I'd just like to point out that the list of characters in the DC setting who are stronger than Superman is about a million times longer than the list of characters in the DB setting that are stronger than Goku.

[ABED]

A purely external conflict can be just as interesting as an internal one, it all depends on execution. The problem with Superman isn't that he's "perfect" it's that he's written too powerful so it's hard to create good obstacles for him. Sure, Goku's incredibly strong but there's no shortage of strong beings for Goku to fight.

I'd just like to point out that the list of characters in the DC setting who are stronger than Superman is about a million times longer than the list of characters in the DB setting that are stronger than Goku.

That really depends because some versions of Superman are absurdly powerful to the point where he can move entire planets. The best Superman stories pare down his abilities.

And we don't know how long the list in DB is as there are other worlds Goku hasn't gone to.

[fadeddreams5]

And no, THIS was supposed to be the culmination of his development. You don't put him into this position, have him need his hand held and then make him develop later. His development leads to his heroic moment, not the other way around.

The kid was just thrown in there, didn't want to fight, released his anger, let his rage cloud his judgement, and lost everything in an instant. The entire thing was a train wreck. Him breaking down and becoming demoralized made him more human, imo. There was never any build up to his role as a hero; the little he did here was all we got in the entire saga. That's why I say he could have been further developed later since this was actually the start of his role as the main protagonist, even if it was the end of an entire saga.

I don't think Goku needs character development to remain interesting anymore than I think Batman and Superman need to change.

Well, Batman comics usually delve into the psyche of the character and the situations he's trying to solve. There are many layers to Batman; he's very complex compared to Goku. Superman, I assume is the same case. DBZ will never focus on the inner workings of Goku's mind. =P

[Polyphase Avatron]

A purely external conflict can be just as interesting as an internal one, it all depends on execution. The problem with Superman isn't that he's "perfect" it's that he's written too powerful so it's hard to create good obstacles for him. Sure, Goku's incredibly strong but there's no shortage of strong beings for Goku to fight.

I'd just like to point out that the list of characters in the DC setting who are stronger than Superman is about a million times longer than the list of characters in the DB setting that are stronger than Goku.

That really depends because some versions of Superman are absurdly powerful to the point where he can move entire planets. The best Superman stories pare down his abilities.

And we don't know how long the list in DB is as there are other worlds Goku hasn't gone to.

I mean known characters. And there are entire races and species that are way above him to the point where he's like a gnat to them. People have this strange idea that he's either the strongest character or close to the strongest character in DC, just because he's the most well-known, when really there are hundreds of people on Earth alone who are stronger than him in most continuities.

[dae428]

First time posting! Was not totally sure if this belonged in this forum or "In-Universe" section since I'm talking about writing style. If I messed that up I apologize. This may strike you as a joke thread but I intend to prove that TFS's version of Goku is a better written character than the Goku of real DBZ.

Let's start Toriyama's Goku: As a character I believe he suffers from the Superman complex (yes I'm aware people tend to compare the two in matters of strength). This complex is having a character that is pseudo All-powerful and all-knowing and thus inherently undramatic. Goku has no conflict, not within himself or the world around him. The only thing he conflicts with is the current villain he happens to be fighting at the time, and even then those relationships are elementary at best with little to no complexity or life to them. Unfortunately the only good relationship he had in the series was with Vegeta (who at once was one of Toriyama's best characters). But that relationship has been worn out, nothing new has been added to it and in recent material Vegeta has lost a lot of what made him special in the effort to make him another Goku.

Now onto DBZA. I know this is parody, but they have made a remarkable change to the character of Goku. By juxtaposing his incredible strength with his absurd stupidity you create not only a hilarious character, but one that actually has a conflict within himself. It also enhances his relationships to the outside world, especially his fellow cast mates. The other character go from saying "WE NEED GOKU" to "Oh crap, do we really need Goku!?" Even in this example the latter statement is more dramatic and interesting. There are opposing forces at work. There is more to gain out of the character of Goku when there are different shades to work with.

Now I'm not trying to suggest the Toriyama is an awful writer. Far from it, he has written exceptional characters before, Piccolo, Future Trunks, Freeza are all great characters. Even more his best character is Gohan, who is the most complex, colorful, and deep character in the entire DBZ Universe. Yet he's been tossed aside, his story left incomplete in favor of a protagonists who is impossible as an audience member to build a relationship towards because there is no life in Goku.


Let me know what you think!

Sorry, but can you explain what makes Abridged Goku a better character than Goku a bit more? Or just elaborate on your Abridged Goku argument more?

From what I've seen Abridged Goku is essentially an exaggerated, stereotyped version of what Goku is. He likes eating and fighting and he's stupid. I've never really seen Abridged Goku have conflict within himself because he's well stupid. It's like Patrick Star, the inner workings of his mind aren't necessarily meant to be an engima (cue spilled milk here). Honestly, while Goku doesn't really have much notable struggles within himself, I find that Abridged Goku lacks even more inner struggles given who he is. Also one of Goku's greatest draws has been his interactions with the other characters and how they react to Goku and how Goku reacts to them. I mean sure it's also like that for Abridged Goku given your example of the whole needing Goku thing, but I don't see how that makes Abridged Goku any better than Goku.

If I've missed something please let me know!

[fadeddreams5]

Patrick Star is a better character than Goku.


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[dae428]

Patrick Star is a better character than Goku.


...

Eh... Ever since season 3 ended he's been kind of a jerk. But hey, to each his own.

Then again you could say the same about Goku... Haha

[MYSTICisPOWER]

So compound the problem by giving up? I should've been clearer, I didn't mean to imply that it was the arm shattering that was the cause of his reluctance to fight. It might have been a contributing factor, but his sadness making him not want to fight is unappealing for the supposed hero of the story. He doesn't even have the attitude of going down swinging.

I think you are seeing Gohan defeating Cell as the destination rather than another major step on his hero's journey. Everything he struggles with during his fight with Cell is captivating because he has to overcome in the most dire of circumstances despite his nature. Gohan not being the "perfect" hero makes him the most attractive hero, especially in modern drama. We also expect it to affect his life moving forward and change him as a person, we unfortunately never got to see that because Toriyama shifted focus away from him.

From what I've seen Abridged Goku is essentially an exaggerated, stereotyped version of what Goku is. He likes eating and fighting and he's stupid. I've never really seen Abridged Goku have conflict within himself because he's well stupid. It's like Patrick Star, the inner workings of his mind aren't necessarily meant to be an engima (cue spilled milk here). Honestly, while Goku doesn't really have much notable struggles within himself, I find that Abridged Goku lacks even more inner struggles given who he is. Also one of Goku's greatest draws has been his interactions with the other characters and how they react to Goku and how Goku reacts to them. I mean sure it's also like that for Abridged Goku given your example of the whole needing Goku thing, but I don't see how that makes Abridged Goku any better than Goku.

You make a fair point, the inner workings of both Gokus is very limited. I guess my idea later on in my post was to really compare Goku's inner workings to Gohan, who I think has a very vivid, complex inner life. My comparison to DBZA Goku was more in regards to Goku's relationship to the world around him. He loses the absolute savior aspect in DBZA which I don't find particularly intriguing in a main protagonist. The insane Juxtaposition that TFS uses makes his relationship to the world around vastly more complex.

I'm trying to convey my thought-process in the simplest way possible. In DBZ, everybody loves Goku. In DBZA, everybody loves Goku AND everybody hates Goku. I personally find the latter more captivating. Perhaps using the word "better" in my title was a mistake I should have been clearer.

[fexus]

I know this would happen. I just know it. People are now taking Abridge over the original series. I know that the abridge would do no good. This is the kind of post I would see in the youtube comment section.

For your question, the answer is a big fat NO.

[dae428]

You make a fair point, the inner workings of both Gokus is very limited. I guess my idea later on in my post was to really compare Goku's inner workings to Gohan, who I think has a very vivid, complex inner life. My comparison to DBZA Goku was more in regards to Goku's relationship to the world around him. He loses the absolute savior aspect in DBZA which I don't find particularly intriguing in a main protagonist. The insane Juxtaposition that TFS uses makes his relationship to the world around vastly more complex.

I'm trying to convey my thought-process in the simplest way possible. In DBZ, everybody loves Goku. In DBZA, everybody loves Goku AND everybody hates Goku. I personally find the latter more captivating. Perhaps using the word "better" in my title was a mistake I should have been clearer.

Well honestly, if you look at the Dragon Ball starting from the beginning I doubt that anyone would really consider Goku an absolute savior in the slightest. Think about it.
He talks a hick, he's naive, and he generally acts relaxed most of the time. The thing is, Goku built up a relationship to everyone that eventually matured to where he became that friend that you wouldn't necessarily look up to, but you would at least trust. For instance, when Bulma first met Goku she saw him as some stupid kid she could take advantage of as a bodyguard. As they went through adversities together and whatnot, they were able to become true friends who had some form of mutual respect for one another. Despite that you could see throughout Dragon Ball that Bulma and Goku still have their own quarrels with each other. There are many times where Bulma gets annoyed with Goku, but the thing is she still trusts him and believes that he's a good person capable of doing great things. This can be seen when she sends Trunks back into the past to save Goku because she believes that he can make a difference. Let me also say that this love-hate relationship isn't limited to Goku and Bulma either. As mentioned before one of the great things about Dragon Ball is the interactions characters have with one another. If every interaction with Goku were, "All hail Goku! Our savior!" then it just wouldn't be Dragon Ball. There has to be some love and hate especially if you're going to go for some comedy which has always been a staple of Dragon Ball. I can even go back to my DBZA stereotype/exaggeration argument and say that DBZA basically took the existing relationships seen in Dragon Ball and exaggerated them and made them more obvious in order to showcase their brand of humor.

In regards to Abridged Goku not being a savior. We know the story of Dragon Ball and how Goku generally always saves the day in some way, shape, or form. And why shouldn't he? He's the main character and he has been for pretty much all of Dragon Ball because it was his story to begin with. Now then let's look at Dragon Ball Z Abridged. While I love the heck out of the show it's ultimately Dragon Ball in terms of general plot with a bunch of jokes thrown in. And, if DBZA is following the main plot of Dragon Ball as it has been so far, then we would see that Abridged Goku technically is the guy who is the savior. He defeated Vegeta and Freeza just like in Dragon Ball. The only difference is that he's going to win through more incompetent and humorous means because that's who Abridged Goku is.

That's my take on it anyways.

Edit:
@Fexus- C'mon man! It's not that bad! You're being too pessimistic about the whole DBZA thing! Plus the guy is just offering his own opinions in a civil manner.
It's up to us to convince him that he's wrong... To make him... One of us... One of us... One of us... Mwahuhuhuhuhuhu....