Abo and Cado's Power

[Hitiro]

He said the special had some "problems" that needed fixing in the manga IIRC.

Oh? Do you know what the problems were exactly? I actually thought that it was a pretty strong movie overall.

I wish I did, but of course Toriyama didn't mention whatever it was just like he didn't mention, at which point he thought the anime was going way off-point.
Here is the interview btw: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... roduction/

Well the issues in the anime are glaringly obvious when watching it. I mean come on. Mr. Popo fending off two SSJ children? Lol.

[ekrolo2]

In their regular form they're stronger than first form Freeza but weaker than second. In their fused form I'd say they're on par with 19 & 20. Although, the last statement mostly comes from my belief that none of the Saiyans can beat 100% Namek Saga Freeza in their base.

[supercat]

In their regular form they're stronger than first form Freeza but weaker than second. In their fused form I'd say they're on par with 19 & 20. Although, the last statement mostly comes from my belief that none of the Saiyans can beat 100% Namek Saga Freeza in their base.

If the kids in their base forms are barely stronger than First Form Frieza, then their SSJ forms likely won't even reach Final Form Frieza 100% tier.

Despite none of their base forms quite being at the level of Final Form Frieza 100%, I find it a bit more plausible to believe that this is a realm of power that even the kids were able to reach as long as they turn SSJ.

[Hitiro]

In their regular form they're stronger than first form Freeza but weaker than second. In their fused form I'd say they're on par with 19 & 20. Although, the last statement mostly comes from my belief that none of the Saiyans can beat 100% Namek Saga Freeza in their base.

They'd need at least 2,400,000 to be on par with 100% Freeza. So they really couldn't be weaker than second form Freeza.

[Hugo Boss]

What baffles me is how Tarble was able to give trouble to opponents at such level, to the point where he knew they were once comparable to Ginyu Force members and became as strong as Freeza. Specially when he is said to have no agression or the fighting skills required to be a warrior, thus being classified as a low-class. Perhaps Tarble is just really good at running away.

Though, he was quite surprised when Goten and Trunks started the fight. It doesn't seem he expected those kids to have that kind of power.

What about thinking that Tarble somehow managed to transform into Oozaru and past his gentle nature? Even Saiyan Arc Vegeta wouldn't be able to do much against any of Freeza's forms, but would likely be a match for the Ginyu Force.

[supercat]

What baffles me is how Tarble was able to give trouble to opponents at such level, to the point where he knew they were once comparable to Ginyu Force members and became as strong as Freeza. Specially when he is said to have no agression or the fighting skills required to be a warrior, thus being classified as a low-class. Perhaps Tarble is just really good at running away.

Though, he was quite surprised when Goten and Trunks started the fight. It doesn't seem he expected those kids to have that kind of power.

What about thinking that Tarble somehow managed to transform into Oozaru and past his gentle nature? Even Saiyan Arc Vegeta wouldn't be able to do much against any of Freeza's forms, but would likely be a match for the Ginyu Force.

I always took this as Tarble giving them trouble in other ways. I'm not sure what Abo and Cado's goals and/or ambitions were at the time, but it could have meant that Tarble was simply foiling their plans, rather than giving them trouble in an actual fight.

Perhaps Abo and Cado had a brief scuffle with Tarble in the past, and the Saiyan somehow managing to escape resulted in a tedious search that inconvenienced the duo.

[hyperbeing1]

What baffles me is how Tarble was able to give trouble to opponents at such level, to the point where he knew they were once comparable to Ginyu Force members and became as strong as Freeza. Specially when he is said to have no agression or the fighting skills required to be a warrior, thus being classified as a low-class. Perhaps Tarble is just really good at running away.

Though, he was quite surprised when Goten and Trunks started the fight. It doesn't seem he expected those kids to have that kind of power.

What about thinking that Tarble somehow managed to transform into Oozaru and past his gentle nature? Even Saiyan Arc Vegeta wouldn't be able to do much against any of Freeza's forms, but would likely be a match for the Ginyu Force.

I always took this as Tarble giving them trouble in other ways. I'm not sure what Abo and Cado's goals and/or ambitions were at the time, but it could have meant that Tarble was simply foiling their plans, rather than giving them trouble in an actual fight.

Perhaps Abo and Cado had a brief scuffle with Tarble in the past, and the Saiyan somehow managing to escape resulted in a tedious search that inconvenienced the duo.

i believe that they were looking for him after he undermined them and that can kinda giving them trouble without being anywhere near them in power.

[Polyphase Avatron]

In their regular form they're stronger than first form Freeza but weaker than second. In their fused form I'd say they're on par with 19 & 20. Although, the last statement mostly comes from my belief that none of the Saiyans can beat 100% Namek Saga Freeza in their base.

They'd need at least 2,400,000 to be on par with 100% Freeza. So they really couldn't be weaker than second form Freeza.

Don't we get a reading on their base power from Abo and Cado's scouters? IIRC it was somewhere around 500,000-600,000.

[supercat]

In their regular form they're stronger than first form Freeza but weaker than second. In their fused form I'd say they're on par with 19 & 20. Although, the last statement mostly comes from my belief that none of the Saiyans can beat 100% Namek Saga Freeza in their base.

They'd need at least 2,400,000 to be on par with 100% Freeza. So they really couldn't be weaker than second form Freeza.

Don't we get a reading on their base power from Abo and Cado's scouters? IIRC it was somewhere around 500,000-600,000.

If that's the actual reading, even as SSJs, Goten and Trunks would likely have no chance at all against Final Form Frieza 100%. At least it would finally address the whole debate about whether or not the kids are above Cell Games SSJ Goku / Gohan.

[Darkprince410]

Don't we get a reading on their base power from Abo and Cado's scouters? IIRC it was somewhere around 500,000-600,000.

Their values aren't listed in roman numerals, but the same numeric system that they're shown normally set as. Besides, those numbers were only given when they were casually walking up to go fight them, and is no way an indication that they're actually powered up. Remember, after seeing those battle powers, Abo and Cado acted like they wouldn't be a threat, but then Goten and Trunks downed them with a single blow, seemingly due to underestimating them based on the battle powers they saw.

[Kamiccolo9]

Their values aren't listed in roman numerals, but the same numeric system that they're shown normally set as. Besides, those numbers were only given when they were casually walking up to go fight them, and is no way an indication that they're actually powered up. Remember, after seeing those battle powers, Abo and Cado acted like they wouldn't be a threat, but then Goten and Trunks downed them with a single blow, seemingly due to underestimating them based on the battle powers they saw.

You mean Arabic numerals.

Roman Numerals would be like I, II, III, IV, V, X, XVII, etc.

[Darkprince410]

Yeah...I don't know why I said Roman Numerals. Lot on my mind right now and was only halfway thinking about what I said.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well that at least indicates that base Abo and Cado are well above 500,000-600,000, right?

[dbgtFO]

Well that at least indicates that base Abo and Cado are well above 500,000-600,000, right?

I don't recall any specific battle powers being stated or shown in the special

[Kamiccolo9]

Well that at least indicates that base Abo and Cado are well above 500,000-600,000, right?

I don't recall any specific battle powers being stated or shown in the special

Well, Tarble says they're as strong as Freeza, and pictures first form Freeza, who was at 530 thousand. So I think it's a pretty safe bet.

[supercat]

If the kids are anywhere near Buu arc Piccolo / Cell Jr., then their base forms would have to be around 15,000,000 - 20,000,000, which is where I sort of saw them at. Although, I'm more inclined to go with the lower end of that range, I'm open to seeing it on the high end as well.

With that being said, Trunks and Goten probably promptly raised their ki against Abo and Cado. We see another example of this being displayed by Goku, when he faces off against Jeice and Burter.

[ZombieVito]

If the kids are anywhere near Buu arc Piccolo / Cell Jr., then their base forms would have to be around 15,000,000 - 20,000,000, which is where I sort of saw them at. Although, I'm more inclined to go with the lower end of that range, I'm open to seeing it on the high end as well.

With that being said, Trunks and Goten probably promptly raised their ki against Abo and Cado. We see another example of this being displayed by Goku, when he faces off against Jeice and Burter.

That low huh?

[supercat]

If the kids are anywhere near Buu arc Piccolo / Cell Jr., then their base forms would have to be around 15,000,000 - 20,000,000, which is where I sort of saw them at. Although, I'm more inclined to go with the lower end of that range, I'm open to seeing it on the high end as well.

With that being said, Trunks and Goten probably promptly raised their ki against Abo and Cado. We see another example of this being displayed by Goku, when he faces off against Jeice and Burter.

That low huh?

Believe me, some people have them even lower. The way I look at it is that Base Goku (BoG) could have been anywhere between 50%-90% of Frieza's maximum power when he first met Beerus. My guess is that he sat somewhere in the middle of that range. If he was on the higher end towards 90%, Beerus might have acknowledged how he could see Goku taking down Frieza, but that wasn't the case. I feel the whole point of Beerus even making the remark about Base Goku being unable to take down Frieza is to signify that while in his base form, the Saiyan is still a decent amount below the tyrant. A marginal difference would likely not have initiated that kind of remark.

Assuming Base Goku (BoG) is around 65% of Frieza's full power, he was likely a little lower than that when the kids faced off against Abo and Cado; probably closer to 50% of Frieza's full power during the events of the 2008 special. Although, I could see Base Goku during this time as low as 40% of Frieza even.

With all that being said, if we put the kids on the higher end of that spectrum (20 million), that would put their base forms at about a third of the higher end of Base Goku's speculated power (50% of Frieza) in the 2008 Special, which in my opinion seems very reasonable.

[Polyphase Avatron]

What's interesting is that everyone assumes that Beerus' comment referred to Freeza's 100% power form, even though he basically never used it and none of his underlings were aware he could even transform. But saying that base Goku is weaker than 1st form Freeza makes absolutely no sense, unless Goku was majorly suppressing his ki for some reason.

So Beerus must have seen Freeza at 100% somehow. Which gives me the amusing thought of Freeza trying to go full power against Beerus, thinking he can beat him, and then getting smacked down so badly he suppressed the entire memory and convinced himself that he was the strongest in the universe.

[Kamiccolo9]

What's interesting is that everyone assumes that Beerus' comment referred to Freeza's 100% power form, even though he basically never used it and none of his underlings were aware he could even transform. But saying that base Goku is weaker than 1st form Freeza makes absolutely no sense, unless Goku was majorly suppressing his ki for some reason.

So Beerus must have seen Freeza at 100% somehow. Which gives me the amusing thought of Freeza trying to go full power against Beerus, thinking he can beat him, and then getting smacked down so badly he suppressed the entire memory and convinced himself that he was the strongest in the universe.

Well, Beerus did see Whis's movie of Goku and Freeza fighting. Maybe he figured it out from that? I dunno.

It's one of those lines that has literally no purpose if it's not true, though. I mean, if Beerus was wrong, why didn't anyone say so? Instead, they all just kinda go along with it, and Goku goes Super Saiyan.