So what exactly is this SSGSS?

[Lord Frieza]

I bet the only reason SSGSS exists at all is because ether someone or maybe Toriyama himself thought "We need to do something to make up for the fact that we no longer have SS2 and 3. Even if we say Goku's SS1 is much stronger now fans will be disappointed." So they changed the hair colour, gave it a cool aura and called it a super saiyan with the power of a super saiyan god.

So we only have this is because someone along the line thought that fans would bitch if Goku only went plan old super saiyan.

[Hitiro]

Before Disney, video-games were C-Canon, while the movies were G-Canon, the highest canon level. After Disney, all previous games became non-canon, but all video games, novels, comics, etc from now on are as canon as the movies are.

Well this just further clarifies my point? The tier list for canonicity in the Star Wars universe was such that anything outside of the movies could be ignored. Which was what I was saying since the start.

Or, giving them a lot of creative freedom just means that he didn't get involved? The can't say Toriyama gave them creative freedom if he designed most of the game. If all he did was supervise two characters in the game I would certainly say he gave them creative freedom. Because all he did was supervise the development of those two characters. It doesn't have to mean that they approved their ideas. I don't see why you would jump to this conclusion. While it certainly is possible that he could have approved their ideas it isn't a stone cold fact. Given Toriyama's lax attitude I honestly think his input was just those two characters and he didn't bother with the rest of the game.

The thing is, we have no reason to ignore it, especially when we know that Toriyama had some involvement.

No, but the issue here is you're taking your fandom of GT and blinding yourself from the facts that are already laid out before us. Toriyama had minimal involvement with Xenoverse based on the statement you provided. You're just choosing to believe just because he supervised the character development of two characters he must have been involved in the rest of the project. Which is simply just bias on your part. While there is a possibility that he could have had more involvement than stated it simply isn't a fact. What we do know is that he is probably just supervised just these two characters. So there is no reason to blindly believe he had any more involvement than what was already stated.

How can you say this has nothing to do with Toriyama's involvement? If you are promoting a game then it is best to make it sound like the game was influence by the original author. It is silly to not attack the market at that angle. So yes, it does have something to do with Toriyama's involvement. I would say that a lot more people would buy game knowing that Toriyama had involvement then if he didn't.

Can you prove that he was lying?

Well, he was lying about it still having depth. So he could be lying about Toriyama's involvement too to sell the product. It happens all the time in PR, they make a lot of empty promises that turn out to be a load of rubbish.

He could consider GT like how he considers the various films made about his story, for instance.

Which is how XenoVerse considers GT & the movies to the main story...

Then there is no point in saying any part of GT is tied into the main story. Because the movies certainly aren't a lot of the time. I think there are only 2 movies which could have actually happened during the main stories events.

[Hugo Boss]

I bet the only reason SSGSS exists at all is because ether someone or maybe Toriyama himself thought "We need to do something to make up for the fact that we no longer have SS2 and 3. Even if we say Goku's SS1 is much stronger now fans will be disappointed." So they changed the hair colour, gave it a cool aura and called it a super saiyan with the power of a super saiyan god.

So we only have this is because someone along the line thought that fans would bitch if Goku only went plan old super saiyan.

I'm almost convinced that this is a motive, but I doubt Mr. Toriyama cares that much about bitching fans. By the way, he could have thought about it when he put SS2 and SS3 aside.

[Bullza]

The entire reason the SSGSS form was introduced into the movie was because they knew it was going to help sell tickets and they'd be able to sell new merchandise. That's it.

They just threw in a half assed explanation where they basically said "Ah it's confusing, don't worry about it." to justify it's existence. There was no reason why they couldn't have just kept the previous form and have Goku master that so he could switch it on and off at will instead, there was no need for another form so soon.

If they were going to have the form anyway then now I wish they'd saved it for Dragon Ball Super where they'd have had more time to go more in depth with it because we might not get to see the original God form again and that did look better.

[NeoKING]

I like the fact that it's pointless. Literally there just to look cool. It's like a redesign on the original Super Saiyan. Think of it like how the Gundams in Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz got a sudden redesign out of nowhere.

[Bullza]

In the trailer for Dragon Ball Super Goku turns into the yellow Super Saiyan. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be set before or after the movies but if it is after then why is that happening? I thought him turning Super Saiyan now was what this SSGSS was supposed to be.

[sintzu]

I thought him turning Super Saiyan now was what this SSGSS was supposed to be.

That's when his God powers are activated.

[Bullza]

I thought in the last movie there was a scene where Frieza asked him about it and Goku said that he didn't need to turn Super Saiyan anymore though.

[SansrivaaL]

I thought in the last movie there was a scene where Freeza asked him about it and Goku said that he didn't need to turn Super Saiyan anymore though.

Thats what I thought too, remember he was the first one to transform and he was technically owning Freeza in base so I dont see why he would need to go SSGSS if he can still go SSJ, wouldnt he go SSJ first, even Goku said the form is simply a supersaiyan with a power of a supersaiyan God so what... the God Ki has a freaking switch? I am so confused.

[Bullza]

I don't really get it either.

From my understanding I thought Goku had fully absorbed the Super Saiyan God Ki into his body so it just became a part of him permanently. Then when he turned Super Saiyan that Ki mixed with the God Ki is what made him look different, a Super Saiyan but with blue hair.

I didn't think he was supposed to be able to become a regular Super Saiyan anymore, him turning Super Saiyan was what the SSGSS was supposed to be wasn't it?

Maybe like you said the God Ki is something he just turns on and off like the Super Saiyan. When both switches are on then that's where SSGSS comes from?

[Low Tone G]

I don't really get it either.

From my understanding I thought Goku had fully absorbed the Super Saiyan God Ki into his body so it just became a part of him permanently. Then when he turned Super Saiyan that Ki mixed with the God Ki is what made him look different, a Super Saiyan but with blue hair.

I didn't think he was supposed to be able to become a regular Super Saiyan anymore, him turning Super Saiyan was what the SSGSS was supposed to be wasn't it?

Maybe like you said the God Ki is something he just turns on and off like the Super Saiyan. When both switches are on then that's where SSGSS comes from?

Don't worry, people... Goku turns Super Saiyan(Golden one) after the Majin Buu saga which is the period when the Super starts. I really hope the first episodes of Super will feature Uub's birth and some other every day life adventures of the Kids, Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, Mr. Satan(Mark), maybe Krilin with full of humor. Then after a time skip they will pick up a post R[F] saga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well this just further clarifies my point? The tier list for canonicity in the Star Wars universe was such that anything outside of the movies could be ignored. Which was what I was saying since the start.

But this is no longer the case. Now, the video-games, movies, comics, etc are all in the same canon level.

No, but the issue here is you're taking your fandom of GT and blinding yourself from the facts that are already laid out before us. Toriyama had minimal involvement with Xenoverse based on the statement you provided. You're just choosing to believe just because he supervised the character development of two characters he must have been involved in the rest of the project. Which is simply just bias on your part. While there is a possibility that he could have had more involvement than stated it simply isn't a fact. What we do know is that he is probably just supervised just these two characters. So there is no reason to blindly believe he had any more involvement than what was already stated.

OK, you are right on this one. To tell you the truth, I misremembered that Toriyama supervised the whole thing, but, after finding the source, it turns out that I was wrong.

The thing is, unless if you are counting as canon strictly only Toriyama's stories (manga, JSAT, BoG, Jaco, FnF, Super), which is something Shueisha doesn't do, I see no reason to ignore XenoVerse, especially when it ties everything (manga, anime, movies, even video-games) together.

Well, he was lying about it still having depth. So he could be lying about Toriyama's involvement too to sell the product. It happens all the time in PR, they make a lot of empty promises that turn out to be a load of rubbish.

You can't say he was lying even in this case, because it depends on how you define depth.

Then there is no point in saying any part of GT is tied into the main story. Because the movies certainly aren't a lot of the time. I think there are only 2 movies which could have actually happened during the main stories events.

Movies 1 & 5 are included in the official timeline, and referenced in the DBZ/GT series, while Movies 9 & 13 can fit in the continuity as well.

[Hitiro]

Well this just further clarifies my point? The tier list for canonicity in the Star Wars universe was such that anything outside of the movies could be ignored. Which was what I was saying since the start.

But this is no longer the case. Now, the video-games, movies, comics, etc are all in the same canon level.

Can you prove this? As far as I'm aware it still works off of the tiered system list in which the games will be ignored and the movies will be the true canon.

The thing is, unless if you are counting as canon strictly only Toriyama's stories (manga, JSAT, BoG, Jaco, FnF, Super), which is something Shueisha doesn't do, I see no reason to ignore XenoVerse, especially when it ties everything (manga, anime, movies, even video-games) together.

Shueisha have no say in what is canon though. It's Toriyama's story. If he wants to re-write it they have no say in what he does. Even if Xenoverse ties everything in there is no reason to include it either, because the story works without the Xenoverse storyline.

Well, he was lying about it still having depth. So he could be lying about Toriyama's involvement too to sell the product. It happens all the time in PR, they make a lot of empty promises that turn out to be a load of rubbish.

You can't say he was lying even in this case, because it depends on how you define depth.

How can you define depth differently? If you look up the definition of depth it is clear and cut. The simple matter of the fact is the game lacks depth. Anybody can see that. If the guy thinks it has depth then he needs to seriously get his head examined.

Then there is no point in saying any part of GT is tied into the main story. Because the movies certainly aren't a lot of the time. I think there are only 2 movies which could have actually happened during the main stories events.

Movies 1 & 5 are included in the official timeline, and referenced in the DBZ/GT series, while Movies 9 & 13 can fit in the continuity as well.

I was speaking specifically in where they sit in the story. Having a good look I can only think of four movies, prior to BoG and FnF, that could fit in the official timeline without screwing up the whole timeline. That would be the Deadzone movie, Bojack Unbound, Broly - Second Coming and Bio Broly. The last two can't really fit because the original movie with Broly can't fit in the timeline. And I don't know how you can think Return of Cooler can fit in the storyline seeing as it and the original movie with Cooler can't fit the official timeline. Dende is the Guardian of Earth so this would have to have taken place after Goku had gone into the RoSaT. So within the 10 days Goku had before they fought Cell. Yet Gohan isn't a SSJ and Goku is not a FPSSJ. Broly the Legendary SSJ also would have to take place in the period before the Cell Games. And Super Android 13 would also have to take place in between the Cell Games. So basically we have 3 events taking place during the 10 days before the Cell Games?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Can you prove this? As far as I'm aware it still works off of the tiered system list in which the games will be ignored and the movies will be the true canon.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/lucasf ... 0-6419225/

Shueisha have no say in what is canon though. It's Toriyama's story.

Shueisha owns the franchise on the same level as Toriyama. And it's not only Toriyama's story, there are more things beyond the manga. Toriyama can just ignore other's stories in his own stories.

I was speaking specifically in where they sit in the story. Having a good look I can only think of four movies, prior to BoG and FnF, that could fit in the official timeline without screwing up the whole timeline. That would be the Deadzone movie, Bojack Unbound, Broly - Second Coming and Bio Broly. The last two can't really fit because the original movie with Broly can't fit in the timeline.

Movie 13 can also fit after Boo arc & before BoG.

None of Broli's movies can fit, even on their own. The 2nd movie has Videl knowing about the Dragon Balls & Super Saiyans before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, even though she learns about them during it, and the movie can't take place after Boo arc because Goku is still dead, Gohan doesn't have Ultimate, etc. The 3rd movie can't fit because this takes place after the 25th TB, since #18 wants her money from Mr. Satan, yet the kids still don't know how to do Fusion.

And I don't know how you can think Return of Cooler can fit in the storyline seeing as it and the original movie with Cooler can't fit the official timeline.

Movie 5 is the 1st Coola movie, which fits fine in the 3-years time-skip before the Artificial Humans.

[Hitiro]

Can you prove this? As far as I'm aware it still works off of the tiered system list in which the games will be ignored and the movies will be the true canon.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/lucasf ... 0-6419225/

And only now is this a thing. Everything prior to this point in time is still considered non-canon. If you read the article it says "all aspects of Star Wars storytelling moving forward will be connected." meaning that things like Republic Commando or Force Unleashed are still considered non-canon. Even if the rules have changed now it doesn't change the fact that this is a thing. And the Dragon Ball story also follows this pattern, like nearly every other franchise.

Shueisha owns the franchise on the same level as Toriyama. And it's not only Toriyama's story, there are more things beyond the manga. Toriyama can just ignore other's stories in his own stories.

Shueisha is not on the same level as the creator. It's ultimately up to him whether they create stuff or not because he can always take them to court if they want to make new material. It is his intellectual property. Nothing they say matters.

Movie 13 can also fit after Boo arc & before BoG.

None of Broli's movies can fit, even on their own. The 2nd movie has Videl knowing about the Dragon Balls & Super Saiyans before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, even though she learns about them during it, and the movie can't take place after Boo arc because Goku is still dead, Gohan doesn't have Ultimate, etc. The 3rd movie can't fit because this takes place after the 25th TB, since #18 wants her money from Mr. Satan, yet the kids still don't know how to do Fusion.

Then even less movies can fit the story.

And I don't know how you can think Return of Cooler can fit in the storyline seeing as it and the original movie with Cooler can't fit the official timeline.

Movie 5 is the 1st Coola movie, which fits fine in the 3-years time-skip before the Artificial Humans.

This is debatable because Goku can't seem to control his SSJ transformation. Yet he clearly can when Trunks shows up. So either Goku returned to Earth early or he somehow forgot how to transform into a SSJ. The movie also seems to suggest that it was Goku was the one that killed Coolers brother back on Namek.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And only now is this a thing. Everything prior to this point in time is still considered non-canon. If you read the article it says "all aspects of Star Wars storytelling moving forward will be connected." meaning that things like Republic Commando or Force Unleashed are still considered non-canon. Even if the rules have changed now it doesn't change the fact that this is a thing. And the Dragon Ball story also follows this pattern, like nearly every other franchise.

They are not non-canon now because they are video-games. Even in the past, the video-games were still canon, just not on the same level as the movies. But at this point, every Star Wars movie, TV series, novel, comic book, video game, etc, everything is equally canon from now on.

Shueisha is not on the same level as the creator. It's ultimately up to him whether they create stuff or not because he can always take them to court if they want to make new material. It is his intellectual property. Nothing they say matters.

Can you prove this?

Then even less movies can fit the story.

Which is why the Daizenshuu, Toriyama, and XenoVerse have most of them taking place in different dimensions.

This is debatable because Goku can't seem to control his SSJ transformation. Yet he clearly can when Trunks shows up. So either Goku returned to Earth early or he somehow forgot how to transform into a SSJ. The movie also seems to suggest that it was Goku was the one that killed Coolers brother back on Namek.

Coola just thinks that Goku killed Freeza, even though he didn't really die. As for Super Saiyan, Goku just didn't transform right away because he had it as a last resort.

[Hitiro]

And only now is this a thing. Everything prior to this point in time is still considered non-canon. If you read the article it says "all aspects of Star Wars storytelling moving forward will be connected." meaning that things like Republic Commando or Force Unleashed are still considered non-canon. Even if the rules have changed now it doesn't change the fact that this is a thing. And the Dragon Ball story also follows this pattern, like nearly every other franchise.

They are not non-canon now because they are video-games. Even in the past, the video-games were still canon, just not on the same level as the movies. But at this point, every Star Wars movie, TV series, novel, comic book, video game, etc, everything is equally canon from now on.

That is not what the article says. "The stories told in the Expanded Universe--which consists of games, books, comics, and so on--has always been considered non-canon." They were considered non-canon according to the article.

Shueisha is not on the same level as the creator. It's ultimately up to him whether they create stuff or not because he can always take them to court if they want to make new material. It is his intellectual property. Nothing they say matters.

Can you prove this?

This is a simple fact. He is the creator therefore he has owns the intellectual property over it. No matter what Shueisha do they can't take this away from him. Sure they can sign a contract with him that allows them to use his IP. But that doesn't give them the same level of ownership over the story or franchise.

Then even less movies can fit the story.

Which is why the Daizenshuu, Toriyama, and XenoVerse have most of them taking place in different dimensions.

Which brings me back to the point that BoG or FnF doesn't need to have taken place in GT. Because the movies often have differences from the main story. Like Dende being the Guardian of Earth during Return of Cooler but Goku and Gohan haven't trained in the RoSaT. You could think of the GT in Xenoverse as a different dimension to the actual GT anime. It doesn't mean that BoG of FnF take place in GT. And there is no reason to dwell on it because the "different dimensions" aren't canon. They can be ignored.

This is debatable because Goku can't seem to control his SSJ transformation. Yet he clearly can when Trunks shows up. So either Goku returned to Earth early or he somehow forgot how to transform into a SSJ. The movie also seems to suggest that it was Goku was the one that killed Coolers brother back on Namek.

Coola just thinks that Goku killed Freeza, even though he didn't really die. As for Super Saiyan, Goku just didn't transform right away because he had it as a last resort.[/quote]

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That is not what the article says. "The stories told in the Expanded Universe--which consists of games, books, comics, and so on--has always been considered non-canon." They were considered non-canon according to the article.

The article is wrong in that part then. They don't have any source, and official sources in the past have conformed that the EU was canon in the past, just not in the highest level.

This is a simple fact. He is the creator therefore he has owns the intellectual property over it. No matter what Shueisha do they can't take this away from him. Sure they can sign a contract with him that allows them to use his IP. But that doesn't give them the same level of ownership over the story or franchise.

Any proof? How do I know that you are not making these up?

Which brings me back to the point that BoG or FnF doesn't need to have taken place in GT. Because the movies often have differences from the main story. Like Dende being the Guardian of Earth during Return of Cooler but Goku and Gohan haven't trained in the RoSaT. You could think of the GT in Xenoverse as a different dimension to the actual GT anime. It doesn't mean that BoG of FnF take place in GT. And there is no reason to dwell on it because the "different dimensions" aren't canon. They can be ignored.

They aren't canon to you, because there is no official canon.

[Hitiro]

That is not what the article says. "The stories told in the Expanded Universe--which consists of games, books, comics, and so on--has always been considered non-canon." They were considered non-canon according to the article.

The article is wrong in that part then. They don't have any source, and official sources in the past have conformed that the EU was canon in the past, just not in the highest level.

This is a simple fact. He is the creator therefore he has owns the intellectual property over it. No matter what Shueisha do they can't take this away from him. Sure they can sign a contract with him that allows them to use his IP. But that doesn't give them the same level of ownership over the story or franchise.

Any proof? How do I know that you are not making these up?

It's the rights of any creator to have higher authority on their work than anybody else. This isn't something I should need to provide proof on. Go look up the law if you want to. Nobody can rank on the same level as you if you're the creator. The only way someone could possibly have the same level as you is if you sold your intellectual property through a legally binding contract and in that case you wouldn't have the same level because now whoever has ownership of the intellectual property outranks you. So if Toriyama sold his IP to Shueisha then he would have no say in what they did. They could do whatever they wanted and Toriyama would have to go to them to make material about Dragon Ball.

They aren't canon to you, because there is no official canon.

They aren't canon like every other franchise deals with "different dimensions" aren't considered as canon. Even if they haven't established an official canon it is clear that anything Toriyama his written storywise is considered canon and anything else falls outside of that in the "whatever" category. You can choose to believe that it's canon if you want but the simple fact of the matter is if it was canon then it would have some baring on what is perceived by everyone(Toriyama's work) as what is canon.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's the rights of any creator to have higher authority on their work than anybody else. This isn't something I should need to provide proof on. Go look up the law if you want to. Nobody can rank on the same level as you if you're the creator. The only way someone could possibly have the same level as you is if you sold your intellectual property through a legally binding contract and in that case you wouldn't have the same level because now whoever has ownership of the intellectual property outranks you. So if Toriyama sold his IP to Shueisha then he would have no say in what they did. They could do whatever they wanted and Toriyama would have to go to them to make material about Dragon Ball.

I'll make a thread for this in order to learn more.

They aren't canon like every other franchise deals with "different dimensions" aren't considered as canon. Even if they haven't established an official canon it is clear that anything Toriyama his written storywise is considered canon and anything else falls outside of that in the "whatever" category. You can choose to believe that it's canon if you want but the simple fact of the matter is if it was canon then it would have some baring on what is perceived by everyone(Toriyama's work) as what is canon.

Do you have any proof that XenoVerse, or the different dimensions, are non-canon? Do you have a statement that confirms this?