SSJ2 Vegeta?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:41 am

I couldn't think up a better subject name, I'm much better at thinking up topics than I am at naming them.

I've noticed their seems to be a general accepted theory on this forum, and among DBZ fans in general, that Vegeta 'cheated' to reach SSJ2 by becoming Majin.

However, after watching the Babidi saga I find no evidence of this. I had naturally assumed while watching, that Vegeta had learned how to become SSJ2 a long time ago, during the 7 years between Goku's death and his return. Their's more evidence to sugest this:

1. East Kaioshin makes a comment when they raid Babidi's ship that Gohan was the strongest of the group because he could transform into SSJ2. At this, Vegeta and Goku both exchange glances and then look away.

2. When Goku transforms into SSJ2, people say Vegeta did the same out of anger. However, Vegeta isn't angry at all, he's not even suprised. He comments about Goku being stronger than Gohan was against Cell.

So then you'll probably ask, "Well if Vegeta could transform into SSJ2, why did he bother allowing himself to be controlled?" Well the answer to that isn't difficult.

Remember, Vegeta wasn't suprised that Goku could transform into SSJ2, which indicated that he already knew or assumed he could. However, when Goku killed Yakon, he had to unleash a lot of his ki as a Super Saiyan. Vegeta couldve gauged or felt how much power Goku was really holding back then, and realised that even as SSJ2 that he wasn't strong enough.

If you can think of any other facts to disprove my reasoning, I'd love to hear it. C'mon, I dare ya...

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:24 pm

Heh heh. Sorry but I actually agree with you. I always thought he could go SSJ2 but knew Goku was still stronger than him anyway so he went Majin for the extra boost to even them out.

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:45 pm

I don't remember clearly, but didn't Goku say Vegeta was a whole lot weaker when he was brought back from the death, and no more Majin?

That doesn't discard that SSJ2 theory, though. I just don't believe it. I think Vegeta, if he reached SSJ2, would have not kept it secret, and showed it off when he could. It just doesn't fit his character to keep it bottled up for seven years, not even given the barest hint he reached it, and then unleashing it finally in his battle against Goku. There's also the fact he's not really seen going SSJ2 at all after he's no longer Majin... But it is a little hard to distinguish SSJ and SSJ2.

Even so, you could be well right. I just feel it clashes with Vegeta's character a little bit... But that's just me.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:56 pm

Damn you, you anime purists! READ THE MANGA!!! Vegeta DOES go SSJ2 against Kid Boo!

New theory: as you know, going various SSJ stages takes up energy. I think Vegeta could go SSJ2, but not maintain it for long, which is where the Majin boost came from.

The reason why I believe this is because when Goku's charging to full SSJ3 strength, Vegeta had to stall. He starts off by going SSJ2 and releasing a HUGE energy blast. Then he uses a renzoku energy-dan like technique while Kid Boo reforms behind him. Then Kid Boo wacks him to the ground, and kicks him in the air. When Kid Boo then punches him in the gut, Vegeta reverts to normal SSJ where he continues to get his ass handed to him.

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:34 pm

I'm not an anime purist (I even prefer the manga), but it's just that I never saw Vegeta destinctively going SSJ2, neither in the manga nor the anime. It's been a long time since I read it, though. Could you perhaps post a picture of the transformation? Or just give me the chapter number, so I can check it out for myself?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:31 pm

Chapter 9 of volume 42.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:38 pm

Dai wrote:I think Vegeta, if he reached SSJ2, would have not kept it secret, and showed it off when he could. It just doesn't fit his character to keep it bottled up for seven years, not even given the barest hint he reached it, and then unleashing it finally in his battle against Goku.

While it might be like Vegeta to show off right away, who says he learned how to go SSJ2 at the start of the seven years? He could have mastered the technique a day before Goku arrived, and then it would be easy to hold it in for the less-than-one-day that Goku actually spent on Earth. However, even if Vegeta pulled it off on the first year after the battle with Cell, he would save it until a major battle, not run into Bulma's room screaming "look at what I can do!".

However, I think that if Deus ex Machina's theory is correct, he would have learned it just before the day came by. Vegeta might have gone SSJ2, but he was still a weak SSJ2. The point is, I find this theory entirely possible.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:34 am

I thought occured to me that there might be more proof to Vegita already learning SSJ2 beforehand. Remember Vegita was really eager to fight Goku in the Budokai Tournament. Well, I mean, he's always been eager to fight Goku, but this time he was really, really eager! Look it how smug he was when he pulled out the corrosponding number to Goku's and showed it at the lot drawing. Look at how ticked off he was when Goku was going to leave the tournament to go with Kaioshin. He was really upset, almost to the point that someone might infer that he was a bit panicky. Could it be that Vegita had attained SSJ2 and was eagerly waiting to battle Goku in the tournament? This would certainly be a great way to introduce his latest accomplishment, best of all in front of Goku! This would be his one and only chance to test his new level of power on his ultimate rival and hopefully, finally come out on top. Finally proving the superiority that he always knew he had over Goku. No wonder he hit the roof when it looked like he wouldn't get the chance!

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:33 pm

That's all very well and true... But becoming a SSJ2 just the day before he turns Majin and all the Buu business starts, sounds way too coincidental to be true.

So, y'all believe what you want, but remember that Dragon Ball had a pretty straightforward plot at most times, and Toriyama surely didn't mean to 'hint' towards stuff... If Vegeta indeed went SSJ2, Toriyama would have made it clear at some point, not leave extremely subtle meanings all over the place. Remember Dragon Ball was a children's manga.

But heck, that's just my say...

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:39 pm

Befoire you label me an anime purist keep in mind that the Buu Manga has yet to be translated into English, and I can barely make phoenetic sounds based on the Hiragana and Katakana I see, I dont always know whats being said ^^;

That said, I don't think Vegeta went SSJ2 before Majin. He HAD to go Majin to do this,n it was the only way out. After all if he could do it all on his own he could have just done it and faced Goku right then and there.

Remember Bibidis magic releases power that would otherwise "be impossible for the body" (Vegetas comment on Spopovitch). Vegeta ALLOWED himself to be taken into Bibidis spell and it was not to be abke to face Goku, he could have done that without it. He did it for two reasons as far as I can tell. He wanted to get the extra power, but more importanly he wanted to return to his evil self and shed the softness he had grown. He felt this necessary to be victorious. Vegeta may well have been able to go SSJ2 post Majin, but NOT before.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:44 pm

Dai wrote:

But becoming a SSJ2 just a day before he turns Majin and all the business starts, sounds way to coincindental to be true.

I never said he attained SSJ2 just a day before, just that he did at some point before the Tenka'ichi Budokai. I was just tossing out a possibility anyway. In my personal opinion, I don't think Vegita reached SSJ2 beforehand either. I agree with Laserkid's comments for those being Vegita's motives.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:08 am

You all make some good points, but I'm still convinced Vegeta could transform into SSJ2 if he had wanted, post Majin.

When Goku first transformed into a SSJ, Vegeta spent 3 years training relentlessly until he could do it to. Then after the Cell games, Vegeta had 7 years to train as well. It seems to me he would never be able to settle being weaker than Gohan.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:15 am

Keep in mind the difference between Goku's body and Vegeta's body during training, though... Goku didn't have a living body. This seems to be something that's completely overlooked, yet may be the most important factor.

We know that being in SSJ3 takes a toll on Goku's body, because it reduced the amount of time he was able to stay on Earth. It also reduced the amount of time that Gotenks could stay fused.

Goku was dead; he didn't have to worry about over-powering or over-exerting his living body. Vegeta, on the other hand, had to worry about this, and it possibly came into play.

Once Goku was able to REACH these stages (SSJ2 and SSJ3) in his "dead" body, perhaps he was able to later control and keep them (somewhat) in his "normal" living body state. With Gohan being half-human, perhaps the genetics allow him to attain and keep the SSJ2 stage more easily (this is what Toriyama was leading up to the entire Cell saga, anyway). So what about Vegeta? Not only did he have a living body, but he was not half-human... I can only infer that these were huge obstacles for him to try and overcome.

Any of that make sense? Yeah, we're totally reading into something that's probably not even there, but it's remotely amusing... !

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:02 am

Don't forget how fast Goku did run out of energy in SSJ3 form when he was alive again and fighting Kid Buu.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:21 am

o.o; I had never thought about it from EX's way before...gives me something new to think about. Arg, why must these things go on forever unexplained?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:50 pm

Here's a thought too: Up to Goku's explanation speech to Boo about the SSJ levels, Dai 2 and 3 Dankai and SSJ2 were always referred to the as the leves above/beyond super saiyan. Is it possible Dai 2 and 3 Dankai are inefficient SSJ2 and 3 levels and they later simply turned the bulk into pure energy?

If so, it all makes sense since Vegeta never saw Goku in Dai 2 Dankai.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:31 pm

Actually, I was going to bring that up with regards to this comment:

Deus ex Machina wrote:1. East Kaioshin makes a comment when they raid Babidi's ship that Gohan was the strongest of the group because he could transform into SSJ2. At this, Vegeta and Goku both exchange glances and then look away.

I didn't think, at this stage in the show/comic, that the phrase "Super Saiyan/Saiya-jin 2" had ever been used. So what did East Kaioshin really say?

Also, couldn't Vegeta and Goku's look simply be that they think/know that they are now stronger than Gohan, but don't want to embarrass him (for whatever reason)?

Post by **TripleRach** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:39 am

I just remembered something: When Gokuu is fighting Yakon, and feeding all of his SSJ energy to him, he looks like he gets up to SSJ2 near the end. After the fight, Vegeta even comments that Gokuu "climbed over the Super Saiya-jin wall", which was also the way Gohan referred to it when he went SSJ2 at the Budoukai. Vegeta makes this comment very calmly, as opposed to the way he reacted when he first found out Gokuu was SSJ and got angry. To me, this implied that Vegeta had may have already reached SSJ2 himself, or else he would've been pissed that Gokuu was so much stronger.

I think the reason he let himself get Majin'd was because he saw that he and Gokuu were both SSJ2, but he knew deep down that Gokuu was the better fighter. He saw that he had become a soft family man, and thought the only way he could stand a chance was if he became coldblooded and evil again (as he says in his speech).

Just my two cents on the subject.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:42 am

PsyLiam wrote:Also, couldn't Vegeta and Goku's look simply be that they think/know that they are now stronger than Gohan, but don't want to embarrass him (for whatever reason)?

That was exactly my point...

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:46 am

Ahh. I thought you meant it in a specific "both Goku and Vegeta had also attained SSJ 2" way, and not a general "they knew they were stronger".

Kanzenshuu

SSJ2 Vegeta?

SSJ2 Vegeta?

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