What made GT so bad ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That sounds arbitrary. Why would Rild have to remain on the floor? Who says Trunks can even knock Rild down?

Who says that Pan can knock him down if he is serious against her?

I wouldn't consider a scratch or 2 "damaged".

She has scratches all over her, which means she got damaged.

Making things up doesn't help your argument.

I'm not making things up. Pan surviving Goten's blast doesn't mean anything, except if she really was unscathed. Base Vegeta survived multiple hits from Pure Boo in the anime, does that mean he is on the same level as him?

Toei doesn't use the same logic as Toriyama when it comes to battle powers.

Because his Ultimate is his "base". That's how GT sees it. The only reason he didn't use it against Rild is because Rild used his metal beam on Gohan's arm. If you watch Goku vs. Rild, Rild's metal beam knocked Goku out of SS, despite not actually doing damage, so it seems like it nullifies Super Saiyan.

But Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate shouldn't increase his power, if it's even possible.

I don't see why? His base form still has his Ultimate traits.

Ultimate is implied in the manga, and shown in M13, BoG, and video-games, to work like a transformation. The fully outlined eyes seem to be a permanent side-effect on base Gohan.

Why would being in the air make it any easier? The blast still shoots up at them.

Don't ask me, ask Pan. It was her that called this Qi Xing Long's weakness in his technique.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Who says that Pan can knock him down if he is serious against her?

How exactly does this negate Trunks' statement? Pan was strong enough to make him wonder if she's stronger than him, and instead of proving him wrong, you just make up some rule where Rild getting up negates Trunks' statement, but to do that you'd need to prove Trunks would be able to take Rild down.

She has scratches all over her, which means she got damaged.

Cosmetic damage. I guess Vegeta really "damaged" #18 with that blast, right? She had scratches on her. Cell really "damaged" Gohan? Gohan's Ki didn't drop, but he had scratches and his face was bloody.

I'm not making things up. Pan surviving Goten's blast doesn't mean anything, except if she really was unscathed. Base Vegeta survived multiple hits from Pure Boo in the anime, does that mean he is on the same level as him?

Toei doesn't use the same logic as Toriyama when it comes to battle powers.

Except we know Pure Buu was toying around, since we know he's SS3 tier based on his fight with Goku. There's nothing saying Goten is holding back here, you just made that up.

The fight was also in the manga, not just the anime.

But Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate shouldn't increase his power, if it's even possible.

This is again, arbitrary. Nothing explicitly states Gohan can't increase in power anymore. If he just goes past his limits, like characters always do, what's stopping him from getting stronger?

Ultimate is implied in the manga, and shown in M13, BoG, and video-games, to work like a transformation.

It is not even remotely implied to be a transformation in the manga. Old Kaioshin says transformations are the wrong way of doing things, so why would he give Gohan another transformation? What kind of logic is that?

Also, question: What would be the point of having Gohan lose his Ultimate power up in GT? What purpose does that serve to the story?

The fully outlined eyes seem to be a permanent side-effect on base Gohan.

In FnF, Gohan is confirmed to have lost his Ultimate power, right? Aren't his eyes no longer fully outlined?

Don't ask me, ask Pan. It was her that called this Qi Xing Long's weakness in his technique.

I'd have to go back and re-watch the fight, but I only quickly skimmed over the FUNi dub on YouTube. Can you tell me exactly what Pan said, please?

[ABED]

-Goku and Trunks could have done that as well... without the "girl gets stronger when they cry" bullshit

Is that any worse than Gohan gets stronger because of his emotions?

Yes, cuz it's a false generalization and a bad message especially considering she was the first female lead for the series in the longest time. It proves she's a horrible female protagonist.

So this is a feminist argument?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How exactly does this negate Trunks' statement? Pan was strong enough to make him wonder if she's stronger than him, and instead of proving him wrong, you just make up some rule where Rild getting up negates Trunks' statement, but to do that you'd need to prove Trunks would be able to take Rild down.

I don't know, the scene feels to me a lot like "Pan defeated Rild so easily! Is she stronger than me?! Wait, Rild is fine after all". I guess you interpretation is valid as well though.

Cosmetic damage. I guess Vegeta really "damaged" #18 with that blast, right? She had scratches on her. Cell really "damaged" Gohan? Gohan's Ki didn't drop, but he had scratches and his face was bloody.

Was it just cosmetic damage though? Pan couldn't withstand the shock-wave from SS Gohan's ki blast, the ki blast itself would have killed her.

There's nothing saying Goten is holding back here, you just made that up.

Ιt's the most logical scenario, IMO.

The fight was also in the manga, not just the anime.

In the anime, they fight twice, and the first fight is filler. I'm talking about the filler fight.

This is again, arbitrary. Nothing explicitly states Gohan can't increase in power anymore. If he just goes past his limits, like characters always do, what's stopping him from getting stronger?

I'm not saying Gohan can't get stronger through training, I'm asking how his dormant power, which was fully released far beyond its limits, is suddenly x50 greater than his base form.

It is not even remotely implied to be a transformation in the manga. Old Kaioshin says transformations are the wrong way of doing things, so why would he give Gohan another transformation? What kind of logic is that?

I said it works like a transformation, not that it is a transformation. If base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan, how would Goku & Gohan do Fusion against Gotenks Boo? Because Goku was about to do that, and Rou Kaioshin's only problem was that Boo wouldn't let them do it, not that there is a huge difference in their powers. Plus, Ultimate Gohan's hairstyle (except in his first chapter) is different compared to his regular hairstyle, which he has after he is revived, when he isn't fighting. M13 also treats it like a transformation.

Also, question: What would be the point of having Gohan lose his Ultimate power up in GT? What purpose does that serve to the story?

How should I know, I didn't make GT. I guess for the same reason they didn't have Gotenks, to make Goku #1.

In FnF, Gohan is confirmed to have lost his Ultimate power, right? Aren't his eyes no longer fully outlined?

Yes, but Gohan having fully outline eyes in GT may be because the Toei was using Gohan's character design from the end of the manga.

I'd have to go back and re-watch the fight, but I only quickly skimmed over the FUNi dub on YouTube. Can you tell me exactly what Pan said, please?

She says it right after he first uses it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't know, the scene feels to me a lot like "Pan defeated Rild so easily! Is she stronger than me?! Wait, Rild is fine after all". I guess you interpretation is valid as well though.

Well, if you choose to interpret it like that, I won't force mine. But from a writer's perspective, you really think they wanted to think she was really weak compared to Trunks by showing that?

Was it just cosmetic damage though? Pan couldn't withstand the shock-wave from SS Gohan's ki blast, the ki blast itself would have killed her.

That was Gohan's blast. Goten's blast is the one didn't do any real damage, as she was fine afterwards. Gohan is obviously much stronger than Goten.

Ιt's the most logical scenario, IMO.

You can believe that if you want, but you can't assert it as fact. There's nothing saying he was, meaning Pan taking no damage still counts as a feat.

In the anime, they fight twice, and the first fight is filler. I'm talking about the filler fight.

Base Vegeta still survived in the manga, though. Point is, Pure Buu fighting SS3 Goku is enough evidence to say he's holding back on Base Vegeta. No evidence for Goten holding back.

I'm not saying Gohan can't get stronger through training, I'm asking how his dormant power, which was fully released far beyond its limits, is suddenly x50 greater than his base form.

Vegeta was brought far beyond his limits by Babidi, and now look how strong he is in GT.

Also, the multiplier for SS isn't 50x in GT. Rild says Goku hasn't even been putting out half of his power up until now when Goku transforms. Either Rild is bad at sensing Ki, or his statement is a vast understatement.

Besides, you can see in most Toei productions that they don't think the boost is very large at all (SS Goku >~ Ultimate Gohan >~ Base Goku in filler).

I said it works like a transformation, not that it is a transformation. If base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan, how would Goku & Gohan do Fusion against Gotenks Boo? Because Goku was about to do that, and Rou Kaioshin's only problem was that Boo wouldn't let them do it, not that there is a huge difference in their powers. Plus, Ultimate Gohan's hairstyle (except in his first chapter) is different compared to his regular hairstyle, which he has after he is revived, when he isn't fighting. M13 also treats it like a transformation.

Gohan would suppress his Ki down to Goku's level.

M13 is kind of irrelevant. GT doesn't treat it like a transformation. His base form has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes, and then he transforms on top of that. There's nothing supporting Gohan losing it.

How does that work anyway? Does Gohan just wake up massively weaker one day?

How should I know, I didn't make GT. I guess for the same reason they didn't have Gotenks, to make Goku #1.

This doesn't make much sense either. There'd be no need to nerf Gohan, all they need to do is make Goku stronger.

Which makes ~Goku~ look more impressive? Beating a stronger SS Gohan or weaker SS Gohan?

The reason Gotenks wasn't used was because Toei wanted to showcase their newest creation, Super Saiyan 4.

Yes, but Gohan having fully outline eyes in GT may be because the Toei was using Gohan's character design from the end of the manga.

If this is the case, there was nothing in the manga prior to FnF suggesting Gohan had lost his dormant power unlock.

[Rocketman]

Plus, Ultimate Gohan's hairstyle (except in his first chapter) is different compared to his regular hairstyle

I like how you ignore the blatantly obvious and consistent change to Gohan's eyes to warble on about a single strand of hair that he explicitly has while Mystic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But from a writer's perspective, you really think they wanted to think she was really weak compared to Trunks by showing that?

What I believe is that they wanted to make us think that Pan was stronger than she really is for a second.

That was Gohan's blast. Goten's blast is the one didn't do any real damage, as she was fine afterwards. Gohan is obviously much stronger than Goten.

We don't know if Goten's blast didn't do any real damage. Scratches are usually there to show us that the character got damaged. In your previous examples, we were told that the damage was only on the surface, but not in this case. So, it's up to the way we interpret it, I guess.

You can believe that if you want, but you can't assert it as fact. There's nothing saying he was, meaning Pan taking no damage still counts as a feat.

You are right here I guess, my bad. The scratches though indicate that she took some damage. We can only guess how much damage it did to her though.

Vegeta was brought far beyond his limits by Babidi, and now look how strong he is in GT.

Also, the multiplier for SS isn't 50x in GT. Rild says Goku hasn't even been putting out half of his power up until now when Goku transforms. Either Rild is bad at sensing Ki, or his statement is a vast understatement.

Besides, you can see in most Toei productions that they don't think the boost is very large at all (SS Goku >~ Ultimate Gohan >~ Base Goku in filler).

The anime is a mess when it comes to battle powers. Suddenly, SS Goku & SS Vegeta are on par with Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks... In the filler Vegeta vs Pure Boo fight, Vegeta is going all-out in his base form, and everyone, including Vegeta, forgets about Super Saiyan, and everyone is surprised that base Vegeta doesn't stand a chance against Majin Boo... GT Base Goku randomly surpasses his SS self from his fight with Redgic during the time he was in M2, and is much stronger than Majin Boo in his base. Then, even though Super Oob was much stronger than SS3 Goku during the Baby arc, SS Goku surpasses Oob in Super #17 arc.

Also, the multiplier for SS isn't 50x in GT.

It still is, according to the GT Perfect Files, and there doesn't seem to be any exception for any of the Saiyans, since it was stated when all of the Super Saiyans in GT were listed along with descriptions, and nothing indicated that the increase was smaller or bigger for anyone.

Gohan would suppress his Ki down to Goku's level.

Fusion requires similar battle powers. The difference between U. Gohan and SS3 Goku, let alone base Goku, is huge. So, it would have been impossible for them to do Fusion.

But then again, Toriyama recently said that Fusion can happen no matter the conditions.

If this is the case, there was nothing in the manga prior to FnF suggesting Gohan had lost his dormant power unlock.

Gohan going Super Saiyan suggests this, since Ultimate is supposed to be something much better than Super Saiyan.

I like how you ignore the blatantly obvious and consistent change to Gohan's eyes to warble on about a single strand of hair that he explicitly has while Mystic.

Gohan's hairstyle was consistent through the whole Boo arc, then it suddenly changes in the chapter after he became Ultimate Gohan and consistently remained changed up until his death, and then it returned to normal after his revival. However, his eyes remained fully outlined from the time he became Ultimate Gohan up until the end. This leads leads to the following scenarios:

• Ultimate Gohan is his base form, and Toriyama decided to change the hairstyle after his first chapter, then forgot that he changed it after Gohan was revived.
• Ultimate Gohan is a different state from his altered base form, and Toriyama decided to change the hairstyle of Ultimate Gohan after his first chapter.
• Ultimate Gohan is a different state from his altered base form, and the change on his hairstyle slowly happened.

Personally, I'll go with option 3, because it kills the possibility of inconsistencies, and it fits with what we see in everything that follows Boo arc (M13, GT, BoG, and FnF).

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What I believe is that they wanted to make us think that Pan was stronger than she really is for a second.

I unno, that doesn't seem weird to you? What's the purpose of making her look good for a second?

We don't know if Goten's blast didn't do any real damage. Scratches are usually there to show us that the character got damaged. In your previous examples, we were told that the damage was only on the surface, but not in this case. So, it's up to the way we interpret it, I guess.

Well, we're not actually told Vegeta did not damage to #18, we can just clearly see that based on #18's demeanor.

Pan had small scratches, but she clearly wasn't that fazed. She turns right back up within a matter of seconds wondering what's going on instead of expressing that she's hurt.

You are right here I guess, my bad. The scratches though indicate that she took some damage. We can only guess how much damage it did to her though.

It didn't seem very bad. She turns right back up within seconds. The only time she is ever truly knocked out is by Gohan's blast.

The anime is a mess when it comes to battle powers. Suddenly, SS Goku & SS Vegeta are on par with Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks...

I agree, but I feel the Buu arc filler is the worst. Previous filler, movies, and a lot of GT isn't nearly as ridiculous as the Buu arc filler power-scaling.

GT Base Goku randomly surpasses his SS self from his fight with Redgic during the time he was in M2, and is much stronger than Majin Boo in his base.

Well, I Goku's power gains are ridiculous, but remember that this is Toei, and the same concept of him receiving unbelievably large amounts of power from seemingly every fight he is in happens in Dragon Ball Movie 4, which Toei made around the same time. Toei themselves tried to lampshade this when they had Goku state during his fight with Baby that Saiyans grow stronger the more they fight.

Time: around 15m50s
Goku: "You act as though you understand the Saiyans, but you don't know anything, do you? Saiyans get stronger the more we fight."

Then, even though Super Oob was much stronger than SS3 Goku during the Baby arc, SS Goku surpasses Oob in Super #17 arc.

Well, I go by a personal fan theory were the power of SS4 relegates into base after each use since the boost seems to get progressively lower as the series goes on. Could be Toei being inconsistent with the boost, but I prefer to take as many in-universe explanations as possible before resorting to the "Toei-logic" excuse.

In universe, without conjecture, we can just say Goku's training put him above Super Uub as a SS1.

There is also the whole argument for #17 toying around thus making the whole fight inconclusive (though I don't buy it, I have SS Goku >~ SS Vegeta >> Super Uub).

It still is, according to the GT Perfect Files, and there doesn't seem to be any exception for any of the Saiyans, since it was stated when all of the Super Saiyans in GT were listed along with descriptions, and nothing indicated that the increase was smaller or bigger for anyone.

It doesn't say it's 50x. It calls the 50x boost a "theory", which, frankly, doesn't sound like they're trying to support it (to me at least.)

Fusion requires similar battle powers. The difference between U. Gohan and SS3 Goku, let alone base Goku, is huge. So, it would have been impossible for them to do Fusion.

But then again, Toriyama recently said that Fusion can happen no matter the conditions.

That's not how I interpreted it, I just saw it as you can suppress down to have "similar battle powers".

Even if Gohan did have a base form, I wouldn't have his base close to Goku. I go by a chain of SS3 Goku >~ Fat Buu >~ SS2 Gohan (Z-sword) due to feats/implications, so that would put his Base a lot stronger than Goku's.

Gohan going Super Saiyan suggests this, since Ultimate is supposed to be something much better than Super Saiyan.

Perhaps, to Toei, Ultimate and Super Saiyan together is much better than Ultimate.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I unno, that doesn't seem weird to you? What's the purpose of making her look good for a second?

To make Rild look weak, in order to give us the impression that he was defeated. "Yay, Pan defeated Rild! Oh wait, he is completely fine after all..."

Well, I Goku's power gains are ridiculous, but remember that this is Toei, and the same concept of him receiving unbelievably large amounts of power from seemingly every fight he is in happens in Dragon Ball Movie 4, which Toei made around the same time. Toei themselves tried to lampshade this when they had Goku state during his fight with Baby that Saiyans grow stronger the more they fight.

We are told the same thing in the manga as well, and Toriyama himself repeated that when talking about BoG. Goku doesn't get significantly stronger through his fight with Slug, other than his Giji Super Saiyan form & Kaio-ken x100, so Goku's increases are really ridiculous, especially when hadn't even surpassed Freeza in his base form during Boo arc.

It doesn't say it's 50x. It calls the 50x boost a "theory", which, frankly, doesn't sound like they're trying to support it (to me at least.)

They are talking like that through the whole guidebook. If it wasn't true, why would they state it in a guidebook that is supposed to provide us correct information?

Even if Gohan did have a base form, I wouldn't have his base close to Goku. I go by a chain of SS3 Goku >~ Fat Buu >~ SS2 Gohan (Z-sword) due to feats/implications, so that would put his Base a lot stronger than Goku's.

Goku & Gohan were close enough for Goku to believe they could do Fusion when Boo was revived. As for Gohan after the Z-Sword training, I don't believe that Gohan got any incredible gains through it. Kaioshin was desperate to make sense of the Z-Sword's purpose when it broke, and Gohan only said that his arms got stronger, and Goku doubted Kaioshin's assumptions.

Perhaps, to Toei, Ultimate and Super Saiyan together is much better than Ultimate.

But that doesn't make sense. Super Saiyan draws out some dormant power, with SS2 drawing even more, and SS3 drawing to its limits. Ultimate draws it far, far, faa~aar beyond its limits. Which means that if combining them together really is possible, it shouldn't affect Gohan's power.

Furthermore, guidebooks & video-games treat base & Ultimate Gohan separately, but when it comes to GT Gohan, the guidebooks make no mention of Ultimate & just talk about base & SS Gohan, and the same happens in video-games, it's just base & SS Gohan. If Toei, who seem to view base & Ultimate as two separate things going by M13 (base Gohan didn't have outlined eyes in M13, but it could be an error because Gohan was dead when M13 was released, and we hadn't seen base Gohan post-Ultimate in the manga yet), wouldn't they have make it clear that Gohan had achieved a new power-up in their anime, or at least in their guidebooks? Instead, we just see Gohan turning Super Saiyan, and we are told in the guidebooks that he is a regular Super Saiyan.

You could make fan-theories about it, but to me, it doesn't seem to be their intention to combine SS & Ultimate. It seems that the outlined eyes are there because Toriyama designed Gohan like that, and they simply removed Ultimate from him for some reason (maybe because Super Saiyans are cooler than base Saiyans?).

[Rocketman]

Gohan's hairstyle was consistent through the whole Boo arc, then it suddenly changes in the chapter after he became Ultimate Gohan and consistently remained changed up until his death, and then it returned to normal after his revival. However, his eyes remained fully outlined from the time he became Ultimate Gohan up until the end. This leads leads to the following scenarios:
[*]Ultimate Gohan is his base form, and Toriyama decided to change the hairstyle after his first chapter, then forgot that he changed it after Gohan was revived.
Personally, I'll go with option 3, because it kills the possibility of inconsistencies, and it fits with what we see in everything that follows Boo arc (M13, GT, BoG, and FnF).

Except Gohan's hair both has that single strand and doesn't after he unlocks the Mystic powerup. It changes from panel to panel. So unless he's flickering back and forth constantly....

13/GT/bog/faff are either Toei (who can't keep SS1 and 2 straight) or two decades after the fact. None should be considered on this matter.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

To make Rild look weak, in order to give us the impression that he was defeated. "Yay, Pan defeated Rild! Oh wait, he is completely fine after all..."

They were trying to make Rild look weak, so they say he's even stronger than Buu?

What viewer is actually going to think Rild is defeated there? Here's clearly hyped up by multiple comments on his Ki, he arrives, Goku says his Ki is greater than Buu's, and the viewer is really expecting Rild to have actually have been defeated there? Not buying any of that at all.

We are told the same thing in the manga as well, and Toriyama himself repeated that when talking about BoG. Goku doesn't get significantly stronger through his fight with Slug, other than his Giji Super Saiyan form & Kaio-ken x100, so Goku's increases are really ridiculous, especially when hadn't even surpassed Freeza in his base form during Boo arc.

What's your point? That doesn't change that it happens in TOEI land. I never denied it being ridiculous, but it's still true.

They are talking like that through the whole guidebook. If it wasn't true, why would they state it in a guidebook that is supposed to provide us correct information?

Why would they call it a "theory" if they want us to think it's true? Sounds like they're avoiding saying it's not 50x. Also, why have Rild's comment be such a vast understatement?

Goku & Gohan were close enough for Goku to believe they could do Fusion when Boo was revived. As for Gohan after the Z-Sword training, I don't believe that Gohan got any incredible gains through it. Kaioshin was desperate to make sense of the Z-Sword's purpose when it broke, and Gohan only said that his arms got stronger, and Goku doubted Kaioshin's assumptions.

Again, I don't see it like that. I always figured suppressing was good enough. I do take the Zeta Sword seriously since Goku truly wondered if Gohan had a chance, despite having a track history of being blunt when it came to these situations (see post-RoSaT Vegeta and Piccolo.)

But that doesn't make sense. Super Saiyan draws out some dormant power, with SS2 drawing even more, and SS3 drawing to its limits. Ultimate draws it far, far, faa~aar beyond its limits. Which means that if combining them together really is possible, it shouldn't affect Gohan's power.

Furthermore, guidebooks & video-games treat base & Ultimate Gohan separately, but when it comes to GT Gohan, the guidebooks make no mention of Ultimate & just talk about base & SS Gohan, and the same happens in video-games, it's just base & SS Gohan. If Toei, who seem to view base & Ultimate as two separate things going by M13 (base Gohan didn't have outlined eyes in M13, but it could be an error because Gohan was dead when M13 was released, and we hadn't seen base Gohan post-Ultimate in the manga yet), wouldn't they have make it clear that Gohan had achieved a new power-up in their anime, or at least in their guidebooks? Instead, we just see Gohan turning Super Saiyan, and we are told in the guidebooks that he is a regular Super Saiyan.

You could make fan-theories about it, but to me, it doesn't seem to be their intention to combine SS & Ultimate. It seems that the outlined eyes are there because Toriyama designed Gohan like that, and they simply removed Ultimate from him for some reason (maybe because Super Saiyans are cooler than base Saiyans?).

This is based on an arbitrary rule that limits can't be broken.

Babidi brought Vegeta fa~ar past his limits, as a Super Saiyan 2. So Vegeta far beyond his limits was his Super Saiyan 2 form. Yet in GT we see him go SS4 (which brings a user to their utmost limits.) So did Vegeta have to lose his Majin power up and go back to his pre-Majin self in GT? Because, going by your rule, you can't get another transformation if you're already fa~ar beyond your limits.

How is Ultimate even a form in M13? He powered up, so what? There's such thing as suppressing, then powering up to full power, you know.

They didn't intend for Gohan to be stronger in GT? Really?

Toei writer 1: "Everyone! We need everyone to know Gohan got weaker in GT! What should we do?!"
Toei writer 2: "I've got it! We'll say he trained! That way everyone will know Ultimate Gohan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GT Base Gohan!!!"
Toei writer 1: "Genius!!!"

These guys might be dumber than Toei writer 3.

Toei writer 3: We need everybody to know Trunks >>>>>>>>>>> Pan!! Like one-shot gap! So let's have Trunks say Pan is stronger!!

[supercat]

I'm not sure why we have to interpret the result of Gohan's training as GT Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan, rather than considering the possibilities of SSJ Gohan > Ultimate Gohan. I've always considered Gohan's Ultimate state almost like a transformation that doesn't outwardly distinguish the changes that have taken place to his physical appearance. My assumption on the absence of his SSJ forms upon completing his power boost with Elder Kai was that the Saiyan simply chose to refrain from transforming to free his body from the strain brought on by transformations. I assumed that the purpose behind the Ultimate form was to enable him to tap into large reserves of power, while avoiding the drawbacks of transforming. Perhaps during the Buu arc, going SSJ and even SSJ2 probably only yielded a very negligible boost in power, and would have in fact been counter intuitive due to the constant consumption of stamina. However, with training, Gohan probably found a way to strengthen his SSJ / SSJ2 forms, thereby making the process of transforming useful again.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

There's nothing supporting Gohan losing his Ultimate powers. Saying he no longer has them is an assumption not backed by any evidence. He has his Ultimate exclusive eyes still.

There's simply no logic behind:

1.) Gohan losing his Ultimate power but keeping the eyes
or
2.) Gohan just waking up massively weaker one day

The only information we do have is:

1.) Gohan has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes
2.) Gohan trained

Nothing saying or supporting Gohan losing his Ultimate, thus, no reason to believe it. Only to avoid "over-powered" characters.

Gohan lasting against General Rild is also more proof of him being stronger than his Ultimate-self, since most evidence points in favor or Rild being stronger than Gohan-Buu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except Gohan's hair both has that single strand and doesn't after he unlocks the Mystic powerup. It changes from panel to panel. So unless he's flickering back and forth constantly....

His bang is actually slowly moving to the other side. Which is why I believe that his hairstyle slowly changed after the ritual. Because from the next chapter up until his death, his hairstyle is different from his base hairstyle before the ritual. After his revival, where he never fought again, his hairstyle returned back to normal.

They were trying to make Rild look weak, so they say he's even stronger than Buu?

What viewer is actually going to think Rild is defeated there? Here's clearly hyped up by multiple comments on his Ki, he arrives, Goku says his Ki is greater than Buu's, and the viewer is really expecting Rild to have actually have been defeated there? Not buying any of that at all.

The whole point was to give the impression that Rild was defeated. Rild was down, wasn't responding, and everyone thought that Pan was super strong. Then suddenly, Rild was up unscathed. Pan even punches Rild again later, and nothing happens this time.

Why would they call it a "theory" if they want us to think it's true? Sounds like they're avoiding saying it's not 50x. Also, why have Rild's comment be such a vast understatement?

Why would they even mention it if it isn't true? As for Rild's comment, he said that Goku wasn't even using half of his strength in his base compared to his SS form. Which is true, even going by the x50 boost.

I do take the Zeta Sword seriously since Goku truly wondered if Gohan had a chance, despite having a track history of being blunt when it came to these situations (see post-RoSaT Vegeta and Piccolo.)

To me, it looks like Goku doubted Kaioshin's assumptions. He seems to be wondering if what Kaioshin says really is true. The Z-Sword was supposed to give the greatest power in the world, yet it broke, so Kaioshin seemed to be desperate to make sense from it & not give up hope. And then later, we learn that this isn't the real purpose of the Z-Sword, it's because of Rou Kaioshin & his ability.

This is based on an arbitrary rule that limits can't be broken.

I'm not saying that limits can't be broken. But if Gohan's dormant powers were fully released beyond their limits, how does he still have that much dormant power left in GT?

Babidi brought Vegeta fa~ar past his limits, as a Super Saiyan 2. So Vegeta far beyond his limits was his Super Saiyan 2 form. Yet in GT we see him go SS4 (which brings a user to their utmost limits.) So did Vegeta have to lose his Majin power up and go back to his pre-Majin self in GT? Because, going by your rule, you can't get another transformation if you're already fa~ar beyond your limits.

Babidi's power-up obviously didn't touch the dormant powers that are used by SS3 & SS4 though. Ultimate, however, obviously touches the dormant powers that are used for SS3.

How is Ultimate even a form in M13? He powered up, so what? There's such thing as suppressing, then powering up to full power, you know.

Base Gohan's eyes aren't fully outlined. Then he powers up, his hairstyle changes, and his eyes become fully outlined.

They didn't intend for Gohan to be stronger in GT? Really?

GT SS Gohan seems to be stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan, but I can't say the same for GT base Gohan.

[Cold Skin]

What made GT so bad in my opinion can be covered in one statement: it didn't feel like Dragon Ball at all. More like some distorted, "weird dream" vision. Story, designs, everything...
It just didn't feel like it was in continuity with what I had always loved, it didn't feel right, it didn't feel like the same franchise at all.

I was more than willing to give it a chance and went through all episodes (hell, I was even willing to give a chance to Evolution when it hadn't been released yet).
But for the first time (and I think only time so far aside from Evolution), it was a Dragon Ball product that just wasn't Dragon Ball somehow. It was some alternate version, some alternate vision, seemingly by very different minds. It was like some weird, wacky fanfic.

I think GT and Evolution are the only two official video products that didn't feel like Dragon Ball to me. It just doesn't feel right, it doesn't fit somehow, and that's the kind of thing that ruins it all.

[GTx10]

Wait people can determine Cohan's Ultimate state based on his eye liner... Look?!
Pan has the same "power up when upset " gimmick like Gohan. Its not hard to believe that Pan might be ridiculously strong. Considering GT happens after Z I'm inclined to believe that GT Gohan is stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan. But still pales in comparison to GT era foes. Its simple but easy to grasp.

[supercat]

There's nothing supporting Gohan losing his Ultimate powers. Saying he no longer has them is an assumption not backed by any evidence. He has his Ultimate exclusive eyes still.

There's simply no logic behind:

1.) Gohan losing his Ultimate power but keeping the eyes
or
2.) Gohan just waking up massively weaker one day

The only information we do have is:

1.) Gohan has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes
2.) Gohan trained

Nothing saying or supporting Gohan losing his Ultimate, thus, no reason to believe it. Only to avoid "over-powered" characters.

Gohan lasting against General Rild is also more proof of him being stronger than his Ultimate-self, since most evidence points in favor or Rild being stronger than Gohan-Buu.

I think the eyes could be attributed towards Gohan's overall change in facial appearance upon receiving his power boost from Elder Kai.

I never said that Gohan lost power, I was simply saying that he's probably found a way to increase the multipliers of his SSJ / SSJ2 forms, thereby making the process of transforming well worth it. There has to be a reason why he didn't leverage his transformations in the past right? With all the other speculations, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that the Ultimate form enabled Gohan to reach levels that rendered his SSJ forms obsolete. However, through diligent training, he has now powered his transformations up far beyond what they used to be, and as a result finds it much more practical to transform and tap into substantially higher levels of power than what he would have gained from going Ultimate at that point.

Let me put in the simplest way possible on how I've always perceived the Ultimate form. Elder Kai was able to bring out Gohan's dormant potential to the surface, growing his power as a whole. Due to the ritual, Gohan also became a recipient of having the privilege of being able to access this unlocked potential, without actually undergoing a physical transformation. However, as Gohan increased his power even further, his transformations naturally increased in conjunction with his overall power. With this power increase, transforming had once again become an asset that had enabled the Saiyan to tap into larger reserves of power.

Also, if Ultimate Gohan was fighting an opponent stronger than Buuhan, he would have been one-shotted instantly. There's no way he would have tanked the amount of hits that he did. I've said this numerous time before but if Goku was comparing Rild to Buuhan, the context would likely have been a bit different. Buuhan is not just Buu alone, but rather the power of Buu plus four other powerful fighters. Therefore, it seems very plausible that Goku would take the time to elaborate on Rild's strength by pointing out how their new opponent is even stronger than Buu was after he's taken the powers of Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The whole point was to give the impression that Rild was defeated. Rild was down, wasn't responding, and everyone thought that Pan was super strong. Then suddenly, Rild was up unscathed. Pan even punches Rild again later, and nothing happens this time.

Again, no viewer would actually think a villain hyped up that much would have such an anti-climactic downfall. Especially since no one actually though Rild was defeated besides Pan.

Why would they even mention it if it isn't true? As for Rild's comment, he said that Goku wasn't even using half of his strength in his base compared to his SS form. Which is true, even going by the x50 boost.

You're answering my question with a question.

If they truly though it was 50x, they would've said it. The "theory" part makes it sound like they're entertaining the idea, but not 100% supporting it.

To me, it looks like Goku doubted Kaioshin's assumptions. He seems to be wondering if what Kaioshin says really is true. The Z-Sword was supposed to give the greatest power in the world, yet it broke, so Kaioshin seemed to be desperate to make sense from it & not give up hope. And then later, we learn that this isn't the real purpose of the Z-Sword, it's because of Rou Kaioshin & his ability.

Agree to disagree then. Different interpretations.

'm not saying that limits can't be broken. But if Gohan's dormant powers were fully released beyond their limits, how does he still have that much dormant power left in GT?

Potential grows. Compare how much stronger GT Vegeta is to Z Majin Vegeta.

Babidi's power-up obviously didn't touch the dormant powers that are used by SS3 & SS4 though. Ultimate, however, obviously touches the dormant powers that are used for SS3.

Vegeta at that time couldn't become a SS3/SS4. SS2 was his absolute limit. But he obviously transcends that by EoZ and GT. GT Vegeta could definitely be over 50x Majin Vegeta going by feats.

Base Gohan's eyes aren't fully outlined. Then he powers up, his hairstyle changes, and his eyes become fully outlined.

They don't do that for him in GT. His base always has the fully outlined eyes. So they must treat it differently then they do in M13.

GT SS Gohan seems to be stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan, but I can't say the same for GT base Gohan.

There's nothing supporting Base Gohan being weaker.

I think the eyes could be attributed towards Gohan's overall change in facial appearance upon receiving his power boost from Elder Kai.

In newer material, where he loses his Ultimate, his outlined eyes are gone. In GT, they're still there.

I never said that Gohan lost power, I was simply saying that he's probably found a way to increase the multipliers of his SSJ / SSJ2 forms, thereby making the process of transforming well worth it. There has to be a reason why he didn't leverage his transformations in the past right? With all the other speculations, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that the Ultimate form enabled Gohan to reach levels that rendered his SSJ forms obsolete. However, through diligent training, he has now powered his transformations up far beyond what they used to be, and as a result finds it much more practical to transform and tap into substantially higher levels of power than what he would have gained from going Ultimate at that point.

Let me put in the simplest way possible on how I've always perceived the Ultimate form. Elder Kai was able to bring out Gohan's dormant potential to the surface, growing his power as a whole. Due to the ritual, Gohan also became a recipient of having the privilege of being able to access this unlocked potential, without actually undergoing a physical transformation. However, as Gohan increased his power even further, his transformations naturally increased in conjunction with his overall power. With this power increase, transforming had once again become an asset that had enabled the Saiyan to tap into larger reserves of power.

Why would Ultimate be a form? It's supposed to be his new baseline. All of Gohan's power drawn to the surface (his base).

Also, if Ultimate Gohan was fighting an opponent stronger than Buuhan, he would have been one-shotted instantly. There's no way he would have tanked the amount of hits that he did.

Gohan never tanked any hits. And why would he be one-shotted instantly? If he trained, he's stronger. Base Rild > Gohan-Buu >~ Base Gohan > Ultimate Gohan, works perfectly.

I've said this numerous time before but if Goku was comparing Rild to Buuhan, the context would likely have been a bit different. Buuhan is not just Buu alone, but rather the power of Buu plus four other powerful fighters. Therefore, it seems very plausible that Goku would take the time to elaborate on Rild's strength by pointing out how their new opponent is even stronger than Buu was after he's taken the powers of Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks.

The lines do not have to go down the way you say. That's not evidence Rild wasn't compared to Gohan-Buu. Goku's huge power up in space and Rild being stronger than Gohan is actually evidence of Rild's power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, no viewer would actually think a villain hyped up that much would have such an anti-climactic downfall. Especially since no one actually though Rild was defeated besides Pan.

I think you are looking at this too deeply. It happens for a few seconds, it's just there to make us thing "Yay, he is dea- oh wait, false alarm."

If they truly though it was 50x, they would've said it. The "theory" part makes it sound like they're entertaining the idea, but not 100% supporting it.

Whatever the case is, we have other guidebooks stating the x50 multiplier as a fact, and I see no reason to assume that the multiplier somehow changed in GT.

Potential grows. Compare how much stronger GT Vegeta is to Z Majin Vegeta.

Vegeta grew stronger beyond his limits, he didn't re-developed dormant powers.

They don't do that for him in GT. His base always has the fully outlined eyes. So they must treat it differently then they do in M13.

But we don't know if he had these eyes because they thought "Hey, this is Ultimate Gohan, let's draw him like that", or it's because Toriyama drew his design like that. Toei had Ultimate work as a transformation in M13, and it also worked like that in DBHeroes & other games. However, we don't see it working like this in GT or DBHeroes for GT Gohan, and there is no mention of anything about it in the GT guidebooks either, even though the other guidebooks treat it as a separate state from base.

There's nothing supporting Base Gohan being weaker.

Which is why you can't state for a fact that GT base Gohan is stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I think you are looking at this too deeply. It happens for a few seconds, it's just there to make us thing "Yay, he is dea- oh wait, false alarm."

Agree to disagree then, I just personally don't see the logic behind having Trunks say Pan is stronger than him when we're supposed to believe the opposite.

Whatever the case is, we have other guidebooks stating the x50 multiplier as a fact, and I see no reason to assume that the multiplier somehow changed in GT.

There is plenty of evidence for a decreasing multiplier.

• General Rild's comment when sensing Goku's Ki after he transforms
• General Rild is slightly weaker than Base Goku, and Hyper Mega Rild can put up a fight against Super Saiyan Goku. Hyper Mega Rild is just Base Rild with the Mega Cannon Sigma members' power added on, and all of them are weaker than Base Goku. If their power was over 50x weaker than SS Goku, their power wouldn't have been relevant to Hyper Mega Rild.
• Goku surpassing his SS form in Base from battle in space becomes quite ridiculous sticking to the 50x multiplier.
• Toei clearly does not think the boost is large, just watch any of their productions.

Vegeta grew stronger beyond his limits, he didn't re-developed dormant powers.

Clearly Vegeta had dormant power to tap into, otherwise he couldn't have progressed.

Also, what about Goku after the Ultra Divine Water?

“Unlike the Super Holy Water, the Super God Water isn’t just a trick; it’s not merely ordinary water. Rather, it’s magnificent water capable of drawing out all the power you’ve got hidden inside you…However, if you’ve already mastered all of your power through training, even if you drink the Super God Water you won’t get stronger at all…”

Goku had all of his hidden power drawn out, yet, he still progresses, and obtains 3 more transformations..

But we don't know if he had these eyes because they thought "Hey, this is Ultimate Gohan, let's draw him like that", or it's because Toriyama drew his design like that. Toei had Ultimate work as a transformation in M13, and it also worked like that in DBHeroes & other games. However, we don't see it working like this in GT or DBHeroes for GT Gohan, and there is no mention of anything about it in the GT guidebooks either, even though the other guidebooks treat it as a separate state from base.

In Movie 13, they show him with his round / not fully outlined eyes, that's how we know it's a transformation there. The same is not done in GT.

You are correct about nothing being mentioned about his Ultimate powers in any guidebook, which is why it's pure speculation to say he lost them, and not supported by evidence.

No guidebooks ever say Ultimate to be a form, either.

Which is why you can't state for a fact that GT base Gohan is stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan.

...what? All I said is there's nothing supporting him being weaker. If you want to say he lost his Ultimate power, you need to prove it. You can't say he lost it and then make me prove you wrong, you're making the claim. Nothing ever said it was a