I don't like the direction the franchise is going...

[ssj4]

First the characters mainly goku and vegeta are becoming way too overpowered even by dbz standards, like they can take out gods potentially. Additionally everyone else is useless compared to them, even gohan who was introduced as being a fighting prodigy. I don't like how the original super saiyan is becoming even more obsolete. What do you guys think of how the franchise is going?

[Doctor.]

They have been surpassing Gods since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, nothing new. Everyone else is useless, but that's the way the franchise has always been, you introduce new characters who take the spotlight alongside Goku while the other main characters now take a backseat. Before the humans took a backseat for Piccolo and the Saiyans and now the Saiyans and Piccolo take a backseat for Beerus and Whis. The Super Saiyan transformation is arguably at its best right now, it was used against Beerus in Battle of Gods, Toriyama said Goku won't go SS2 or 3 anymore and SSGSS is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, so it's clear Toriyama wants to make base and SS, Goku's most iconic looks.

[LuckyCat]

Overpowered by DBZ standards

As long as they can bring the fights back down to Kung fu with some impressive ki attacks the power of the characters is irrelevant. Take a look at the Beerus fight; sure both fighters can easily destroy planets but their moves are reduced to martial arts and energy blasts. This same theme has been going on since Saiyan saga.

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't like how the original super saiyan is becoming even more obsolete.

Not trying to pick on you, but that's a bit ironic considering your username.

[fadeddreams5]

They have been surpassing Gods since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, nothing new. Everyone else is useless, but that's the way the franchise has always been, you introduce new characters who take the spotlight alongside Goku while the other main characters now take a backseat. Before the humans took a backseat for Piccolo and the Saiyans and now the Saiyans and Piccolo take a backseat for Beerus and Whis. The Super Saiyan transformation is arguably at its best right now, it was used against Beerus in Battle of Gods, Toriyama said Goku won't go SS2 or 3 anymore and SSGSS is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, so it's clear Toriyama wants to make base and SS, Goku's most iconic looks.

I think when he refers to Gods, he actually means the PL scale. For example, Goku may have surpassed Kami in DB, but Kami wasn't a being capable of moving at the speed of light or blowing up a planet with a flick of his finger. At that point in the story, Goku could barely fly. Now he's able to teleport anywhere across the universe. In order to keep up with the character's strength, they have to keep on expanding the DBverse more and more. Now, I don't mind any of this. My gripe with ever increasing powers is that nothing is demonstrated through feats, but through word of mouth and beating other supposed strong characters. Been this way since after the Frieza or Cell saga. Battles should look more like this by now:
https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=9m15s
And we should be seeing feats like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKGtWCLofg
https://youtu.be/Uy8gFEIG4IM?t=6s

That said, the Buu saga had several awesome battles thanks to the uniqueness of the villain himself, so that's also a major factor if they don't want to go more over-the-top. Frieza and Beerus, unfortunately, didn't provide that, though the BoG battle was good thanks to the dialogue, setting changes, and music. Remove all that, and it would have been just as boring as the F one, imo.

Another thing is that characters, besides Gohan, had a clear weakness in the Buu saga to compensate for their incredible powers that can now be sensed across the galaxy (the strain of SSJ3 and time limit of fusion). Nowadays, there's no weakness for these new forms except the incredibly stupid weakness they pulled out of their ass or borrowed from a filler that was clearly meant to be a joke scene (being off-guard).

Just because characters have gotten the backseat in the past doesn't mean they should continue to do this. It was bad back then, and it's bad now, especially when they're doing it to a character like Gohan who was actually above everyone by the end of the series.

He ruined Goku's iconic look by making it blue. A color even he admitted looks weak...

First the characters mainly goku and vegeta are becoming way too overpowered even by dbz standards, like they can take out gods potentially. Additionally everyone else is useless compared to them, even gohan who was introduced as being a fighting prodigy. I don't like how the original super saiyan is becoming even more obsolete. What do you guys think of how the franchise is going?

As you can probably tell from above, I have not been fond of these movies as a long-time fan. They're neat though. Entertaining, and have some funny scenes. I'm not dreading them, but they could be better. Just find them...meh. Nothing different from most of the Toei movies for me, only some of the decisions they've made to move the series forward through them are pretty terrible, imo.

Can't say I have high hopes for Super to deliver what I want, but I do know I will be entertained, and that's good enough.

[Saiyan007]

I think when he refers to Gods, he actually means the PL scale. For example, Goku may have surpassed Kami in DB, but Kami wasn't a being capable of moving at the speed of light or blowing up a planet with a flick of his finger. At that point in the story, Goku could barely fly. Now he's able to teleport anywhere across the universe. In order to keep up with the character's strength, they have to keep on expanding the DBverse more and more. Now, I don't mind any of this. My gripe with ever increasing powers is that nothing is demonstrated through feats, but through word of mouth and beating other supposed strong characters. Been this way since after the Freeza or Cell saga. Battles should look more like this by now:
https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=9m15s
And we should be seeing feats like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKGtWCLofg
https://youtu.be/Uy8gFEIG4IM?t=6s

None of those don't seem like anything Goku can't do

A heavily weakened 4th form Frieza destroyed earth with just the palm of his hand in fukkatsu no F

[Marco Polo]

At the end of DBZ, martial arts didn't matter anymore and everything was just a matter of who can produce the biggest ki blasts. Notice how Goku trained without even a master from the end of the Freeza Saga all the way to EoZ.

Nowadays on the other hand, Whis actually implies that Goku and co. can't rely on the same strategy of ki spamming anymore, and his training introduces or re-introduces martial arts concepts that were missing for a long time in the series.

[Rocketman]

Just because characters have gotten the backseat in the past doesn't mean they should continue to do this. It was bad back then, and it's bad now, especially when they're doing it to a character like Gohan who was actually above everyone by the end of the series.

This is the part that's different this time. The humans were already falling behind at the end of DB, and Piccolo was left behind at the Cell Games. By Buu's defeat, Gohan was the most powerful being in the universe, so far above Goku and especially Vegeta they could never catch him.

Then bog is like NOP! GOKU BESTEST, VEGETA OK, GOHAN COMPLETE TRASH WEAKER THAN SS1 VEGTA

There's never been a knockdown that hard or that sudden.

[dbzfan7]

Well all they gotta do is introduce new characters to replace Gohan and the others. Just like how over time the humans were replaced by Piccolo and the Saiyans.

[B]

"The individuals in charge are incapable of crafting non-linear stories." I agree, original poster. All your complaints disappear once we get something more complex than "the greatest threat ever shows up just because."

[Doctor.]

Been this way since after the Freeza or Cell saga.

Then there's no reason to complain about it now, is there? If people are complaining about stuff modern Dragon Ball is doing wrong, then they shouldn't be bringing up stuff that has existed in the franchise for a long time.

Battles should look more like this by now

I agree and hopefully we get something like that in the future. I really dislike the slow-motion movement that the Goku vs Freeza fight in the new movie liked to show-off.

though the BoG battle was good thanks to the dialogue, setting changes, and music. Remove all that, and it would have been just as boring as the F one, imo.

Well, I don't know about you, but even in a series like this, I prefer substance over action. And BoG's excelled there. Of course if you remove said substance, the only thing it is is a punch-fest, which can be good or bad.

Another thing is that characters, besides Gohan, had a clear weakness in the Buu saga to compensate for their incredible powers that can now be sensed across the galaxy (the strain of SSJ3 and time limit of fusion). Nowadays, there's no weakness for these new forms except the incredibly stupid weakness they pulled out of their ass or borrowed from a filler that was clearly meant to be a joke scene (being off-guard).

I agree, hopefully the God forms are retconned/updated to have some weakness. I already covered it before, but I once said I'd like it if Saiyans who already turned SSG once couldn't perform the ritual again. That way, if someone fucks up, they can't get SSG ever again and people like Goku, who have achieved and absorbed the SSG power, can't help others (like Vegeta) to get SSG (so basically, Vegeta would need Bra, Tarble or Future Trunks so that the ritual could be done on him).

Just because characters have gotten the backseat in the past doesn't mean they should continue to do this. It was bad back then, and it's bad now, especially when they're doing it to a character like Gohan who was actually above everyone by the end of the series.

Of course it's not a reason to continue to do it, but that's not the point. The point is that people are attributing that problem to modern Dragon Ball only, and that's completely wrong.

So what if Gohan was the strongest? Piccolo was the strongest mid-way through the Cell arc and he got surpassed. One arc later he was weaker than two kids and had to serve as their teacher. Kame-sennin was the strongest when introduced and was second to Goku for the majority of the series, after the Daimao arc the others got progressively stronger and he didn't, making it so that characters like Chaozu could surpass him. God was the strongest being when he was introduced, later in his last appearance he was nothing more than an ant. What's the difference between these characters and Gohan? All of them, except for God, had important appearances in multiple arcs and were relevant and strong characters until they eventually got surpassed by a lot of people. The same thing is happening to Gohan now.

This is nothing new. Beerus and Whis (maybe Champa, FemWhis and other new characters too) will serve as the new ones who will replace the old, just like the Saiyans and Piccolo replaced Kame-sennin, Kuririn & co.

He ruined Goku's iconic look by making it blue. A color even he admitted looks weak...

That's 100% subjective, I like blueper over super.

There's never been a knockdown that hard or that sudden.

Kame-sennin stands in the corner, crying.

[pacz360]

They have been surpassing Gods since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, nothing new. Everyone else is useless, but that's the way the franchise has always been, you introduce new characters who take the spotlight alongside Goku while the other main characters now take a backseat. Before the humans took a backseat for Piccolo and the Saiyans and now the Saiyans and Piccolo take a backseat for Beerus and Whis. The Super Saiyan transformation is arguably at its best right now, it was used against Beerus in Battle of Gods, Toriyama said Goku won't go SS2 or 3 anymore and SSGSS is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, so it's clear Toriyama wants to make base and SS, Goku's most iconic looks.

I think when he refers to Gods, he actually means the PL scale. For example, Goku may have surpassed Kami in DB, but Kami wasn't a being capable of moving at the speed of light or blowing up a planet with a flick of his finger. At that point in the story, Goku could barely fly. Now he's able to teleport anywhere across the universe. In order to keep up with the character's strength, they have to keep on expanding the DBverse more and more. Now, I don't mind any of this. My gripe with ever increasing powers is that nothing is demonstrated through feats, but through word of mouth and beating other supposed strong characters. Been this way since after the Freeza or Cell saga. Battles should look more like this by now:
https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=9m15s
And we should be seeing feats like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKGtWCLofg
https://youtu.be/Uy8gFEIG4IM?t=6s

That said, the Buu saga had several awesome battles thanks to the uniqueness of the villain himself, so that's also a major factor if they don't want to go more over-the-top. Freeza and Beerus, unfortunately, didn't provide that, though the BoG battle was good thanks to the dialogue, setting changes, and music. Remove all that, and it would have been just as boring as the F one, imo.

Another thing is that characters, besides Gohan, had a clear weakness in the Buu saga to compensate for their incredible powers that can now be sensed across the galaxy (the strain of SSJ3 and time limit of fusion). Nowadays, there's no weakness for these new forms except the incredibly stupid weakness they pulled out of their ass or borrowed from a filler that was clearly meant to be a joke scene (being off-guard).

Just because characters have gotten the backseat in the past doesn't mean they should continue to do this. It was bad back then, and it's bad now, especially when they're doing it to a character like Gohan who was actually above everyone by the end of the series.

He ruined Goku's iconic look by making it blue. A color even he admitted looks weak...

First the characters mainly goku and vegeta are becoming way too overpowered even by dbz standards, like they can take out gods potentially. Additionally everyone else is useless compared to them, even gohan who was introduced as being a fighting prodigy. I don't like how the original super saiyan is becoming even more obsolete. What do you guys think of how the franchise is going?

As you can probably tell from above, I have not been fond of these movies as a long-time fan. They're neat though. Entertaining, and have some funny scenes. I'm not dreading them, but they could be better. Just find them...meh. Nothing different from most of the Toei movies for me, only some of the decisions they've made to move the series forward through them are pretty terrible, imo.

Can't say I have high hopes for Super to deliver what I want, but I do know I will be entertained, and that's good enough.

I agree with you especially on the feats thing but at least latetly we had goku. Punch through a planet 10x earth gravity,beerus smashing through 8 planets then destroyed several suns and a weakened Freeza destroyed earth by the palm of his hand or least with a kiai and whis rewinding time but yeah i want guys like gohan and piccolo staying in the game

[FortuneSSJ]

At the end of DBZ, martial arts didn't matter anymore and everything was just a matter of who can produce the biggest ki blasts.

Ironically the last fight, Goku vs Uub, didn't have ki blasts. They ended it right.

[TheAldella]

Overpowered by DBZ standards

As long as they can bring the fights back down to Kung fu with some impressive ki attacks the power of the characters is irrelevant. Take a look at the Beerus fight; sure both fighters can easily destroy planets but their moves are reduced to martial arts and energy blasts. This same theme has been going on since Saiyan saga.

There was far more hand-to-hand in Resurrection "F" than I had thought there would be, actually. It was pleasant.

[rereboy]

I think when he refers to Gods, he actually means the PL scale. For example, Goku may have surpassed Kami in DB, but Kami wasn't a being capable of moving at the speed of light or blowing up a planet with a flick of his finger.

Ok, they've been surpassing beings that destroy planets with a flick of their fingers ever since they surpassed first form Freeza who destroyed planet Vegeta with a flick of his finger.

[SaintEvolution]

It's a better direction than Dragon Ball GT or AF or Absalon or all those other shits.

[Rocketman]

It's a better direction than Dragon Ball GT or AF or Absalon or all those other shits.

I don't see the difference, really.

[fadeddreams5]

That's 100% subjective, I like blueper over super.

...You really prefer bottom from top? O.o

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Regardless though, he changed and replaced an iconic design. Unless I'm wrong, that is, and Goku can still go SSJ and THEN tap into the god powers to become SSGSS, which is how it should have been. But the movie seems to indicate that it's literally just the new SSJ. =P

[Doctor.]

...You really prefer bottom from top? O.o

Of course, it looks much better.

I have a feeling if blueper was the original SS, and SSGSS was golden, then people would complain too.

[dbgtFO]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Anyone know, if those two frames were drawn by the same guy?