Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
h0kuten wrote:Instead of asking questions to try and make the Majin Buu saga more of a puzzle than it already is, why not adhere to the fact that the notion Gotenks was so strong was never proven? Yet we've countless feats and sources from alternative means that say the opposite? The feats of Yo Son Goku + Battle of Gods, Goten's statement in the new Manga and The Daizenshuu all come to mind.
It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. Which I would like to have an answer, because honestly, I can't think of any other answer than "Piccolo believed that Gotenks was strong enough".
As for the JSAT, it doesn't prove anything because Gotenks was fooling around, in BoG, everyone gets their asses kicked equally by Beerus, and in Super, Goten doesn't imply anything about Goku being stronger than Gotenks or Gohan, he is just making a joke about everyone being afraid of Chichi.
As for the Daizenshuu, what are you referring to, specifically?
Fat Majin Buu is in-able to sense Chi, whereas Super Buu can. Piccolo tells Gotenks Base that he needs to train and train, this notion also builds unto his Super Saiyan state because in the Viz translations Piccolo holds the same consensus about his power and during The Androids Arc Piccolo knows how powerful a Super Saiyan should be.
This is the main reason for sending Gotenks in quickly against Super Buu and not Fat Buu because everyone would be dead.
I hope I've sufficed it well enough.
Last edited by h0kuten on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Goku in Super probably is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks. I only say that cause I'm pretty sure that's how they're gonna be writing it anyways despite previous conceptions. I'd be damn surprised if they actually came out and said, Gotenks and Gohan are still stronger (not cause that'd obviously make sense, but because they'd admit Goku ain't #1 at this point on earth.)
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Rocketman wrote:The Buu arc is actually pretty straightforward, people just don't like that Goku is supremely outclassed and the final fight is slapped together to give him screentime.
It is pretty straightforward, but it's the arc where battle powers reach the status of being ridiculous and nonsensical. Before the Boo arc, you'll see most people would agree on who's stronger than who and what this statement meant and so on. In the Boo arc, tons of discussions arise such as what form of Gotenks is stronger than Goku, which Boo form is the strongest, was Gohan SS2, how strong Gotenks got after the ROSAT, are the base Saiyans stronger than Freeza, is Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo and so forth. It's sloppy in terms of properly displaying how strong x and y characters are compared to other arcs who were much clearer in presenting such information.
Or maybe it's just as clear as the others and most fans just make ridiculous interpretations, I don't know.
Last edited by Doctor. on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rocketman wrote:The Buu arc is actually pretty straightforward, people just don't like that Goku is supremely outclassed and the final fight is slapped together to give him screentime.
I don't see why de-powering an opponent is such an unbelievable thing in any story really. There are several manga's and comics that will have the bad guy not fighting at their strongest version for the hero to win. Ulquiorra in Bleach is a fine example of fighting the main protagonist wounded.
Rocketman wrote:The Buu arc is actually pretty straightforward, people just don't like that Goku is supremely outclassed and the final fight is slapped together to give him screentime.
It is pretty straightforwards, but it's the arc where battle powers reach the status of being ridiculous and nonsensical. Before the Boo arc, you'll see most people would agree on who's stronger than who and what this statement meant and so on. In the Boo arc, tons of discussions arise such as what form of Gotenks is stronger than Goku, which Boo form is the strongest, was Gohan SS2, how strong Gotenks got after the ROSAT, are the base Saiyans stronger than Freeza, is Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo and so forth. It's sloppy in terms of properly displaying how strong x and y characters are compared to other arcs who were much clearer in presenting such information.
Or maybe it's just as clear as the others and most fans just make ridiculous interpretations, I don't know.
I do not believe my interpretations are ridiculous.
dbzfan7 wrote:Goku in Super probably is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks. I only say that cause I'm pretty sure that's how they're gonna be writing it anyways despite previous conceptions. I'd be damn surprised if they actually came out and said, Gotenks and Gohan are still stronger (not cause that'd obviously make sense, but because they'd admit Goku ain't #1 at this point on earth.)
This is what'll actually happen. They don't care about power relations, only praising Goku.
h0kuten wrote:Fat Majin Buu is in-able to sense Chi, whereas Super Buu can. Piccolo tells Gotenks Base that he needs to train and train, this notion also builds unto his Super Saiyan state because in the Viz translations Piccolo holds the same consensus about his power and during The Androids Arc Piccolo knows how powerful a Super Saiyan should be.
This is the main reason for sending Gotenks in quickly against Super Buu and not Fat Buu because everyone would be dead.
I hope I've sufficed it well enough.
Piccolo does tell Gotenks to train. But Gotenks has a single day before he has to fight Majin Boo. Piccolo was not going to send him into the RoSaT until after he became Evil Boo. How much stronger do you think Goten an Trunks would have become with a days worth of training? Not a lot I'd say. And Piccolo doesn't hold the same consensus when Gotenks becomes SSJ.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
The only thing he was wondering about here is Gotenks' speed. Probably because he was worried that this increase in power didn't translate to speed like when Trunks used SSJG3 the Cell arc.
h0kuten wrote:Fat Majin Buu is in-able to sense Chi, whereas Super Buu can. Piccolo tells Gotenks Base that he needs to train and train, this notion also builds unto his Super Saiyan state because in the Viz translations Piccolo holds the same consensus about his power and during The Androids Arc Piccolo knows how powerful a Super Saiyan should be.
This is the main reason for sending Gotenks in quickly against Super Buu and not Fat Buu because everyone would be dead.
I hope I've sufficed it well enough.
Piccolo does tell Gotenks to train. But Gotenks has a single day before he has to fight Majin Boo. Piccolo was not going to send him into the RoSaT until after he became Evil Boo. How much stronger do you think Goten an Trunks would have become with a days worth of training? Not a lot I'd say. And Piccolo doesn't hold the same consensus when Gotenks becomes SSJ.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
The only thing he was wondering about here is Gotenks' speed. Probably because he was worried that this increase in power didn't translate to speed like when Trunks used SSJG3 the Cell arc.
Piccolo believes the boys are their only hope. prior to knowing about fusion. Seeing as how Ssj2 and Ssj3 and a year of training was out of the question, what do you think Piccolo had in mind? The RoSaT of course.
Piccolo does hold the same consensus according to the Daizenshuu and Viz translations. The Herms translations do not disagree with this notion by not explicitly stating the opposite. All it says is 'Oooh Aaaah', that really isn't grounds for any form of confirmation.
The normal Super Saiyan transformation has never displayed a lack of speed. Piccolo knows the Super Saiyan state well enough by The Android Arc to deduce Goku wasn't as powerful as he should be, so to believe he think's it's like SSJG3 is really reaching.
h0kuten wrote:Piccolo believes the boys are their only hope. prior to knowing about fusion. Seeing as how Ssj2 and Ssj3 and a year of training was out of the question, what do you think Piccolo had in mind? The RoSaT of course.
Piccolo only suggested the RoSaT after Boo powered up. The only mention of RoSaT other than this was to allow Goku more time to to teach them the technique. But Goku said they should learn the technique pretty quickly. Also if he really thought Gotenks wasn't enough to fight against Fat Boo he would have send them into the RoSaT rather than just have them train outside for a day.
h0kuten wrote:Piccolo does hold the same consensus according to the Daizenshuu and Viz translations. The Herms translations do not disagree with this notion by not explicitly stating the opposite. All it says is 'Oooh Aaaah', that really isn't grounds for any form of confirmation.
What consensus are you actually talking about? All the story ever tells us is that the current Gotenks is no match for Evil Boo. Piccolo was perfectly happy just having them waste the day outside the RoSaT because he believed the fusion would be enough. Nothing suggests otherwise until Boo powers up by becoming Evil Boo.
Honestly if Gotenks was truly weaker than Fat Boo, Piccolo would have not thrown away a years worth of training and opted for a single days worth of training instead.
h0kuten wrote:The normal Super Saiyan transformation has never displayed a lack of speed. Piccolo knows the Super Saiyan state well enough by The Android Arc to deduce Goku wasn't as powerful as he should be, so to believe he think's it's like SSJG3 is really reaching.
I don't think you are understand what I'm saying here. What I'm saying is Gotenks was incredibly strong and Piccolo probably was worried that there were side effects to them being so strong in fusion. There would be no use in all that power if their speed remained the same so Piccolo wanted to make sure that there were no adverse effects. Just because the SSJ transformation never displayed a lack of speed doesn't mean a fusion of two SSJ's wouldn't have any weird effect on their speed. It's not like Goku would know if it had any weird effects on a SSJ fusion because he had nobody to fuse with in the afterlife.
Last edited by Hitiro on Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
h0kuten wrote:There is no such thing as gaps you can't get around because there is no 'Universally' accepted gap range between all said fighters. The strongest argument for Gotenks Pre-ROST is also it's heaviest burden, due to nothing being proven after the fact.
Nothing supports that SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) is weaker than Fat Boo. Goku was sure that he would have been stronger than Boo, and based on the information he knew, he should have a very good estimation of Gotenks' power. After Piccolo saw SS Gotenks' power, he never showed any doubt in his power, until Boo transformed into Evil Boo.
And yes, even though Goku admitted that he lied about his strength being weaker than Fat Boo's, he doesn't say anything about how his power relates to Gotenks'.
Nothing really supports the notion that Goku was right either.
Again, a strawman.
The objective evidence in favor of Gotenks is multiple statements, while the evidence against Gotenks is absolutely nothing. Therefore, the opposing view relies on more assumptions, and Goku's predictions remain right by virtue of Occam's Razor.
Piccolo feels Gotenks' Ki and says it really is absolutely incredible, meaning Gotenks met his expectations.
Always found it funny the Goku supporters / Gotenks detractors don't mind turning Goku into an idiot + mass murderer yet have a problem with him being weaker than Gotenks / Gohan.
h0kuten wrote:Fat Majin Buu is in-able to sense Chi, whereas Super Buu can. Piccolo tells Gotenks Base that he needs to train and train, this notion also builds unto his Super Saiyan state because in the Viz translations Piccolo holds the same consensus about his power and during The Androids Arc Piccolo knows how powerful a Super Saiyan should be.
This is the main reason for sending Gotenks in quickly against Super Buu and not Fat Buu because everyone would be dead.
I hope I've sufficed it well enough.
So, you believe that Gotenks is weaker than Boo because Piccolo told him to train hard for 1 day?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Rocketman wrote:The Buu arc is actually pretty straightforward, people just don't like that Goku is supremely outclassed and the final fight is slapped together to give him screentime.
Yea. But whose a SSJG now and who isn't? Both Goku & Vegeta at this point in time are above even Vegito from the buu saga.
Rocketman wrote: only praising Goku.
Amen.
"I was born in a small village. I was still a child when we were raided by soldiers. Foreign soldiers. Torn from my elders, I was made to speak their language. With each new post my masters changed. Along with the words they made me speak. With each change, I changed too. My thoughts, personality, how I saw right and wrong. Words - can - kill." —Skull Face
h0kuten wrote:Fat Majin Buu is in-able to sense Chi, whereas Super Buu can. Piccolo tells Gotenks Base that he needs to train and train, this notion also builds unto his Super Saiyan state because in the Viz translations Piccolo holds the same consensus about his power and during The Androids Arc Piccolo knows how powerful a Super Saiyan should be.
This is the main reason for sending Gotenks in quickly against Super Buu and not Fat Buu because everyone would be dead.
I hope I've sufficed it well enough.
So, you believe that Gotenks is weaker than Boo because Piccolo told him to train hard for 1 day?
This is a post I wrote in October. It seems like it might be relevant for this discussion.
In order to understand the Boo saga one must first realize that up until Goku gains his life back he does not want to use SSJ3 or be the world's savior again.
Goku first does not want to fight Majin Boo and says he has a fusion technique to teach. Mind you Goku doesn't even suggest Goten and Trunks, that is Mr. Popo. Goku then says he will stall so they can learn the technique. Goku doesn't want to win because he knows one day a stronger threat may arise.
The next time we see Goku on earth is when Super Boo has absorbed earth's hope Gotenks and is about to destroy earth's hope number 2 Gohan. This is the next time we see SSJ3.
So far there is an example set of Goku only using SSJ3 in dire situations. The first one where stalling and not finishing the threat is best for the potential future, and the next time where everyone else on the planet is already dead and the Earth's last hope is about to die. Goku isn't strong enough to defeat this threat, but it does help him.
The next time we see Goku is when he is with Vegeta, and the one thing Goku does not want to do is mess with Vegeta's pride. That is why all throughout there fight Goku does not even hint at a new form. Even still while facing the dire outcome of dieing against Super Boo, Goku still does not want to use SSJ3. Goku says they will find another way to win. He does not want to have to use SSJ3 to win because he thinks it is unfair.
Goku only again decides to use SSJ3 as another last resort when both Gotenks and Gohan, the earth's potential saviors are dead.
tldr;
As you can see the Boo saga is really about how Goku, the word's hero, no longer feels responsible for the world and must make tough and seemingly unorthodox decisions in order to get the next generation ready for a world without him. However it all back fires when he must come to the realization that he is the only one capable of saving the day.
Pure Boo > Evil Boo > Majin Boo
First Goku does not want to be the savior.
Then Goku does not want to have to use SSJ3 in front of Vegeta.
Finally Goku has no other options and must save the day.
The story is really simple when you look at it that way, and the narration fits perfectly in line with this.
khalildh wrote:This is a post I wrote in October. It seems like it might be relevant for this discussion.
In order to understand the Boo saga one must first realize that up until Goku gains his life back he does not want to use SSJ3 or be the world's savior again.
Goku first does not want to fight Majin Boo and says he has a fusion technique to teach. Mind you Goku doesn't even suggest Goten and Trunks, that is Mr. Popo. Goku then says he will stall so they can learn the technique. Goku doesn't want to win because he knows one day a stronger threat may arise.
The next time we see Goku on earth is when Super Boo has absorbed earth's hope Gotenks and is about to destroy earth's hope number 2 Gohan. This is the next time we see SSJ3.
So far there is an example set of Goku only using SSJ3 in dire situations. The first one where stalling and not finishing the threat is best for the potential future, and the next time where everyone else on the planet is already dead and the Earth's last hope is about to die. Goku isn't strong enough to defeat this threat, but it does help him.
The next time we see Goku is when he is with Vegeta, and the one thing Goku does not want to do is mess with Vegeta's pride. That is why all throughout there fight Goku does not even hint at a new form. Even still while facing the dire outcome of dieing against Super Boo, Goku still does not want to use SSJ3. Goku says they will find another way to win. He does not want to have to use SSJ3 to win because he thinks it is unfair.
Goku only again decides to use SSJ3 as another last resort when both Gotenks and Gohan, the earth's potential saviors are dead.
tldr;
As you can see the Boo saga is really about how Goku, the word's hero, no longer feels responsible for the world and must make tough and seemingly unorthodox decisions in order to get the next generation ready for a world without him. However it all back fires when he must come to the realization that he is the only one capable of saving the day.
Pure Boo > Evil Boo > Majin Boo
First Goku does not want to be the savior.
Then Goku does not want to have to use SSJ3 in front of Vegeta.
Finally Goku has no other options and must save the day.
The story is really simple when you look at it that way, and the narration fits perfectly in line with this.
Goku had no other options when they had to fight Evil Boo. So this is illogical. His statement holds up that they couldn't beat Evil Boo unless they weakened him further. He literally says they have no chance. Vegeta already knew about SSJ3 at this point so it would make little sense for Goku to not want to use the form in front of Vegeta. Especially in this dire situation.
It is not illogical if you think that, though Vegeta knew Goku was stronger as SS3, Goku didn't want Vegeta to know the difference between them was so big. And Goku still thought Vegeta might fuse with him at that time, before both discovering there was still the Good Boo left to be cut off.
It was only during Pure Boo's fight that Goku stated Fusion and Potara were impossible since Vegeta would never allow a fusion again as well as they even intended to fight one at a time, suggesting that Goku also wanted Vegeta to have a chance to fight Boo. It turned out that both Boo and Goku were a lot stronger than Vegeta expected.
By the way, good post, @khalildh.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hugo Boss wrote:It is not illogical if you think that, though Vegeta knew Goku was stronger as SS3, Goku didn't want Vegeta to know the difference between them was so big. And Goku still thought Vegeta might fuse with him at that time, before both discovering there was still the Good Boo left to be cut off.
It was only during Pure Boo's fight that Goku stated Fusion and Potara were impossible since Vegeta would never allow it again as well as they even intended to fight one at a time, suggesting that Goku also wanted Vegeta to have a chance to fight Boo. It turned out that both Boo and Goku were a lot stronger than Vegeta expected.
By the way, good post, @khalildh.
It is illogical because Vegeta said he saw everything from the afterlife. So he would know how strong SSJ3 was in comparison to himself. Vegeta also out-right said that he didn't want to fuse. Goku also made it seem like fusion was the only way after Boo appeared inside himself straight after Vegeta declined fusion as an option yet again.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”
I think this is pretty much a dire situation. If Goku could handle Evil Boo he would have.
Last edited by Hitiro on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To be honest, that is subjective (not aimed at you Hugo Boss, at khalid).
I interpret Goku not wanting to use Super Saiyan 3 against Fat Boo and instead having Gotenks beat Fat Boo as:
SS Gotenks pre > Fat Boo (expected max) >~ SS3 Goku >~ Fat Boo (actual)
The way I see it, Goku was expecting Boo to further power up, and thus he when he said he was unsure he could beat Boo, he wasn't lying, he truly was unsure. Goku noted Boo's Ki is like a lie, so he perhaps wasn't aware of the true depths of Fat Boo's full power.
So instead of beating Boo himself and then teaching the kids fusion incase a later enemy showed up, he banked on fusion since he doubted his own power against his expectations for Fat Boo's maximum and had the utmost confidence in Gotenks' power.
So I don't believe Goku didn't want to use his SS3, just that against Pure Boo was the only time he absolutely had to (since Gohan and Gotenks were dead and Vegeta wouldn't fuse.)
