East Kaioshin

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:56 am

Onikage725 wrote:The notes are not "pretty clear" if you can't read them.

The chart and the map are.

Forgive me for wanting a source instead of immediately basking in your ineffable "rightness."

Did I give you the impression that I was just talking out of my ass? I believe I mentioned several times that I was using information from official guides, starting on page 1. And yet here we are, on page 3. It sure took long enough. Condescending? "Annoyed" is more like it...

caejones wrote:Just to be perfectly clear, is the dub wrong when they have Kaioshin say that there were once "five grand Kais"? I'm assuming that's an error of the dub.

Well, there were five Kaiôshin (four "regular" Kaiôshin and one Daikaiôshin).

And since we have an ancient Kaioshin that wasn't active during Buu's ravage of the universe, we have to wonder: how are Kais destroyed, and where do new ones come from?

Out of convenience.

And if they are the overseers of the universe, why aren't they immortal?

Well, "our" Kaiô and the elder Kaiôshin sure appear to be, in the sense that being dead doesn't change much for them...
So yeah, one has to wonder where the Kaiôshin killed by Boo disappeared exactly, like I said earlier. Same thing for the previous generations of Kaiôshin (and, presumably, Kaiô).

I just recalled the concept of "those killed by demon folk" going into a state of... not-very-alive-ness when dead... Ur... yeah, they go into that non-perceptive limbo state

Good point.
I guess that could work (for Boo's victims, at least).
As a matter of fact, I think that would be even more fitting for Boo than it should be for Piccolo Daimaô (who turned out to be half-an-alien rather than an actual "demon"), ironically.
(and I'm just now realizing that Piccolo not-Daimaô killed Gokû along with Raditz without any side-effect... 'guess he wasn't a "mazoku" anymore at that point...)

Speculation as to the demon status of Buu could go on for a while, but... I don't know when to stop... .

Well, the "demon folk" thingy is called "mazoku" in Japanese, and Boo is a "majin", soooo...

Fat Buu's victims wound up in otherworld.

Who are you referring to?

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:44 am

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe he's referring to Dabura, Chi-chi, Bulma, and the other girls being in "Heaven", while Krillin, Yamcha, and some other hanging with King Kai on the Grand Kai's Planet.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:06 am

They weren't victims of "fat" Boo (and that was filler anyway).

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:23 am

I'm referring to the millions of people killed in Buu's rampage before he splits and eats himself.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:27 am

Did we we see them ending up in the otherworld? In the manga?

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:36 am

I'm not sure; are any of Enma's reactions to the mass destruction in the manga? Or the scene where Goku returns to the otherworld after his time on Earth runs out? Besides that and some filler "people-watching-from-the-sidelines" scenes, I can't think of anything, so it's quite possible I was mistaken about that (though I recall Enma being perplexed about all of the death as ... umm... Meh.).

Well in either case, there is support for at least some forms of Buu as having the mazoku effect?

... and, I think Kami did notice that Piccolo's killing of Raditz and Goku didn't limbo-fy them, which is the main reason I remembered it... [edit] And... it just occurred to me that Kami's comments may have been filler. :O[/edit]

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:45 am

caejones wrote:I'm not sure; are any of Enma's reactions to the mass destruction in the manga?

I... don't remember. No idea.

Well in either case, there is support for at least some forms of Buu as having the mazoku effect?

Well, yeah, but that theory would sound a lot better if it worked for all forms. ^^;

(then again, even if that theory works, it still wouldn't explain where the previous generations of Kaiôshin (and Kaiô?) went... unless we're to believe they were all killed by mazoku... pretty powerful mazoku, too...)

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:57 am

Agreed. I could buy the Fat Buu not being Mazoku because of having DaiKaioshin in him... but the other 15 generations of Kaioshin/Kaio don't have much of a way out, unless there are generational wars with armies of Mazoku, but if they managed to create 15 generational gaps, they'd be ridiculously powerful and the universe might as well have been dead long before Buu.

I guess it's possible that the generations that Kaioshin was referring to might be generations of change, that is, if anything catastrophic happened to any of the Kaio/Kaioshin and one of them had to be replaced... but that's completely speculation. Perhaps they all... fused or something... which would let them continue to get stronger...
Ok, I'm going to stop before I say something really crazy...

[edit] I... 'm actually starting to lean toward the idea that when the Kaioshin hit "divine puberty" and figure out how the potara work, some of them fuse... since there seem to be less females at both levels (though we don't know how constant that is), we could assume that some of the guys fuse and the females use some excess spirit energy or something from all of that to allow new Kaio/Kaioshin to develop... then I guess the girls would eventually fuse as well if ever they fell behind in power and ability... that could explain why the Potara are like, Standard issue for Kaioshin (though why not Kaio?)... *wonders if Gohan's Kaioshin gi had authentic Kai earrings*.[/edit]

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:42 am

My theory:

The sections of the universe arent galaxies any more than the secors of earth are "spheres" (I read somewhere that the districts of Earth where known as Spheres). There certainly can't just be 4 or eight galaxies in the entire universe.

The universe is divided into quarters. Each quarter is ruled by a kaioushin. The Dai Kaioushin presides over all four of them. They all share a planet.

Each quarter is further divided into eighths, each eighth is ruled by a Kaiou and the dai Kaou presides over them, living on one of four Dai Kaiou planets, while the Kaiou each have their own planetoid.

I dont think that the entire west, north and south quarters of the universe were destroyed; certainly trillions perished but I doubt there were no surviving systems whatsoever.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:14 am

aarondirebear wrote:My theory:
The sections of the universe arent galaxies any more than the secors of earth are "spheres" (I read somewhere that the districts of Earth where known as Spheres). There certainly can't just be 4 or eight galaxies in the entire universe.

I don't believe they called the four quarters of the Universe "galaxies" in the manga, but according to the anime, yes, there are only four galaxies in the entire Universe.
I'm not sure how you can say that "there can't be". This is "Dragon Ball". ^^;

Each quarter is further divided into eighths, each eighth is ruled by a Kaiou and the dai Kaou presides over them, living on one of four Dai Kaiou planets, while the Kaiou each have their own planetoid.

Please read the topic... ^^;

(also, 4 x 4 = 16, not 8)

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:45 am

Got a couple of 'them questions for you guys:

Was it established where is Pikkon from..?

Was the location of the "new" namek ever stated in the manga?

I would go back a few pages but there's a bunch of other info and.. I'm cold.

-Rick

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:54 am

Mr.Piccolo wrote: Was it established where is Paikuhan from..?

You mean, like a planet name? Nope.

Was the location of the "new" namek ever stated in the manga?

I really don't think so.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:06 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Additional thoughts?
I'd like to see the original Japanese. That's the only version I've ever read, and I'm pretty sure it makes it clear it's an area thing.
If someone busts that volume out (appears I don't have it), then fine... let's rock.

I just checked the original text.

It says:
宇宙空間だ… 生きかえった瞬間にまた死がまっている……
どうにもならん… あそこはわたしの区域ではないのだ……

"Asoko wa watashi no kuiki dewanai no da..."

So yes, it is an area thing, like I thought.
Namecc isn't in the North galaxy, and that's why Kaiô couldn't do anything about the Kulilin thing.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:27 am

Ah, because Asoko always literally refers to a physical place.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:25 am

aarondirebear wrote:Ah, because Asoko always literally refers to a physical place.

And there's "kuiki", too.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:53 pm

Kuiki wasn't in my vocab this semester, but asoko was :p

EvilLaughKid · Post by **EvilLaughKid** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:44 pm

desirecampbell wrote:I'm going to pop in here and give my two cents.

The chart shows one daikaioshin over four kaioshin over one daikaio over four kaio. This, coupled with the fact that nothing else is ever said about there being more kaio or kaioshin makes it seem pretty clear that the kaioshin each look after a galaxy, as do the kaio.

But wait, that seems redundant and pointless. But, it's exactly what it looks like. There should be four kaio under each kaioshin, that would make the system easier and seem less 'tacked on'. But there's no evidence to support such a theory - and, in fact, the kaioshin were simply 'tacked on'.

Should've would've, could've, but isn't.

It doesn't have to be redundant. There are two ways I look at it.

1. Kaioshin are busy people. They don't have time for petty squabbles like Frieza, or Cell.(lol) THey've got places to be and things to do. Therefore, the shins deal with big galaxial problems, while the kaiohs take on planatery disputes.

2. Kaiohs are shins in training. one day dai kaioshin decides he's had enough playing universal overseer. and decides its time to have a vacation, retire, die, whatever. He says, "ok North, you're promoted" and then North Kaioshin says "Ok Dai Kaio, you're New North, pick a new Dai Kaio" So Dai Kaio says "East, you're the new Dai Kaio" So East goes "ok, ((Insert decision on new East Kaio here. creation maybe? perhaps picking a pure spirit from heaven?))" and everything keeps on movin along.

future_trunks · Post by **future_trunks** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:29 pm

......uh its been two weeks and a day since the last person.

I'm bad at knowing whats necroposting though so I'm probably wrong