"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, I look at it as a similar situation to when he mastered Super Saiyan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber/

[Sora Saiyan]

RE: SSJG and SSJGSS
@Chuquita I like SSJG but I actually prefer SSJGSS as it's my favourite SSJ form (replacing the original), but I would prefer it if it did take some cues from SSJG, say, for example the pupils were a bit bigger and it had irises. Basically I'm just wondering would you miss SSJG as much then? And what would you like SSJGSS to take from SSJG?

[mikezilla2]

- Why on Earth did they use old animation to form a narrative link at the start? Whilst I like the idea of Super being used as a direct continuation of Z, using old animation was at best out of place, and at worst damn right lazy.
.

blame KAI but shows like one peice have also done so.

I'd argue that the difference is that One Piece is a a show that has been running continually since 1999. Sure, technology and style have since moved on greatly since then, but by showing old animation they're still referencing the same show. Moreover, Toei have gotten around the issue in recent years by creating 'Episode of [Insert Character or Place name here], to recap old events with new animation, which can then be used in future flashbacks.

thing is KAI is pretty cheaply animated re traced for the most part , and the last buu arc of KAI is even worse so they arnt afraid to cheap out on pretty much everything

[funrush]

On the topic of design for blueper and SSG, keep in mind that SS2 was mainly a design upgrade for Gohan, and that it didn't affect Goku's appearance much is a side affect of that.

I'm not expecting a dub release of this for a while, though would not be surprised if Funi swipes those rights up fast.

[Chuquita]

RE: SSJG and SSJGSS
@Chuquita I like SSJG but I actually prefer SSJGSS as it's my favourite SSJ form (replacing the original), but I would prefer it if it did take some cues from SSJG, say, for example the pupils were a bit bigger and it had irises. Basically I'm just wondering would you miss SSJG as much then? And what would you like SSJGSS to take from SSJG?

If blueper had the same eye type as ssjg (only in blue) it would feel more like a natural extension of it and I wouldn't be so disappointed about the whole thing. There's absolutely nothing retained from ssjg in blueper saiyan; if I didn't know any better and someone told me the forms were completely unrelated I'd believe them.

The character sheets for blueper (and I blame Yamamuro for this because he's the one who battled Toriyama over ssjg's looks in BOG, but didn't direct that but did direct F) actually do show it as also being a slimmer-body'd form like ssjg. I saw the photos of the character sheets. Yamamuro or someone completely ignored them when it came time to animate the thing and just drew them with regular ssj1 proportions. For all intensive purposes, the character sheets don't even matter. So something was supposed to carry over from ssjg and they decided they didn't want it to. >_>

I really wanted Vegeta to have a blue ssjg form. Getting that at the cost of Gokû's magenta ssjg form was a monkey's paw wish and made me regret wanting to see blue ssjg Vegeta so badly. I think I'd be willing to trade away the hand-holding scene from F that I really enjoyed if it meant I could get ssjg Gokû back for keeps; and I got a lot of entertainment out of that hand-holding scene.


What I like about ssjg Gokû's appearance is similar to what I like about kid Gokû's appearance in the original DB; "This character looks cute and non-threatening, but surprise! It's shockingly strong!" It's like watching tiny kid Gokû beat up those giant guys in the tournament preliminaries, or a dinosaur, or bear with sword. I love the dichotomy of it. Same reason I like "sweet magenta haircolor" with "eerie red irises".
Gokû keeping his base form's hair is an appreciated touch too. I never cared for how his ssj1 and ssj2 hair looked too much like Vegeta's with bangs/fringe. I rarely draw ssj Gokû because of how samey his hair is to Vegeta's if you swap out the widow's peak for bangs/fringe.


My biggest problem with blueper is it took away something I loved. Blueper itself appears in F as a recolor, but they picked a good shade of blue, and I like the way the blue ki aura disperses and flows. And I like how it looks on Vegeta.


Honestly, if BOG never existed, and F did, somehow, I'd probably have liked blueper a lot. I wouldn't be missing ssjg if they'd never created it at all.

Even with ssj1/2/3; the earlier forms of that are never really gone. Gokû's got ssj3 in the Buu arc, but he still uses ssj1 and ssj2 plenty. F has it like we'll never see ssjg again; not even against weaker villains and saving blueper for the big bad. I was super bummed out, I was actually legit depressed for a couple days and actually left the forums briefly until I got past it and accepted that it's over and I'd never see it again. It's best not to get attached to these sorts of things is what I learned.

If blueper hadn't been a replacement, if Yamamuro/whoever hadn't ignored blueper's character sheets, I wouldn't feel that down about it, but I'd still really miss it.

[dbzfan7]

What I like about ssjg Gokû's appearance is similar to what I like about kid Gokû's appearance in the original DB; "This character looks cute and non-threatening, but surprise! It's shockingly strong!" It's like watching tiny kid Gokû beat up those giant guys in the tournament preliminaries, or a dinosaur, or bear with sword. I love the dichotomy of it.

I kinda had something like that mentioned in my entry for Dragon Soul, though not about SSJ God. I definitively agree with this.

[MaGyunia]

I don't mind a new way to ssjg as long as it gets to hang around for a while and Gokû gets to learn and show off any fun form unique powers like that one he never figured out at the end of BOG.

I don't mind if they change the BoG ritual, but I like the aspect of teamwork/community it introduced, that it is not attainable just through training -- I hope they don't change that, even if they make it so it only needs 4 people or something. He can then later incorporate that new power and make it his own through training, but I liked the idea in BoG that there are things they couldn't do without collaborating.

The whole background of the Saiya-jin ritual explained by Shenlong in Battle of Gods was intended both to put the Saiya-jin as a race in a different light (as in, not as naturally violent and evil as they're portrayed in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs), namely by introducing the concept of "good-hearted" or "pure-hearted" Saiya-jins on Planet Vegeta, and also to precisely turn a new SSJ transformation into something that could only be achieved with the help of others, which contrasts with the well-known ways of reaching other levels of Super Saiya-jin (by an explosion of anger, in the "regular" Super Saiya-jin's case, by training, in the cases of Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, by completely mastering all aspects of the Super Saiya-jin state, in the case of Super Saiya-jin Full Power, by another explosion of anger and/or through rigorous training and natural abilities and talents in the case of Super Saiya-jin 2, and through immense training and latent fighting abilities in the case of Super Saiya-jin 3).

The concept of being able to reach a particular stage only with the help of others might be interesting or even touching and emotional to some, however Goku himself states more than once that he isn't quite pleased with the fact that he couldn't attain the stage by himself in BoG, although he eventually manages to reach it by himself afterwards (whether by undergoing the actual physical transformation or by - as pointed out by Beerus himself - "absorbing" that stage into him, enabling him to have the power and abilities of the SSJG state even in his base form).

The fact that Goku is at first far from pleased with the fact he couldn't get to the SSG stage by himself alone only goes to show, or rather confirm, that he's quite proud himself. Vegeta may be all about pride, but Goku, as a pure Saiya-jin and fighting maniac, also has his fair dose of pride himself.

I've never seen Super Saiya-jin God (or Super Saiya-jin 4, in GT, for that matter) as part of a direct sequence of SSJ transformations and stages, but rather separate stage(s) that can only be achieved through some special method. Since the events in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are going to be, or have already been indeed basically made "non-canon" and there's no way they can use the exact same procedure for Goku (and Vegeta) to reach SSJG, I'm quite curious and hyped to see what they came up with as the method to reach it. Later on, as far as SSJGSSJ is concerned, I assume both Goku and Vegeta just realize at some point that they can upgrade the SSJG stage by completely mastering its characteristics and adding the natural and latent fighting and violent aspects of a Super Saiya-jin transformation, while still keeping the advantages of the SSG stage, namely the ability to sense godly Ki and the massive increase in power. Ever since I was first introduced to the concept of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin I thought of it as an upgrade to Super Saiya-jin God, keeping all of the latter's advantages and being slightly stronger as far as sheer destructive power is concerned.

If they had kept both Bog and Fukkatsu no F as canon direct continuations of the main timeline of Z, then at some point Vegeta would have had to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage just like Goku did before he (and Goku) could attain the state of SSJGSSJ. If they had gone that road, and they didn't, whether we like or not, it would be extremely interesting to see both the process of Vegeta turning SSJG through the ritual, Vegeta "absorbing" the state just like Goku did in BoG and then Goku and Vegeta's decision to go and train with Whis. By the time of the events of Fukkatsu no F, Vegeta is basically finally at the same exact level of power as Goku both in his base form (when he fights Whis both he and Goku are in their base forms but have all the abilities of the SSJG stage) and in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin state.

I guess none of this really matters now, as, although Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin have been and will be introduced in DBSuper, they have been and will be introduced in different settings and circumstances, and at a different, earlier time.

I'm actually still in the process of "deleting" the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F and "turning" them into "non-canon" stuff just like the other movies and GT need to be looked at. It's not easy, as the stories were quite phenomenal, especially BoG's, and it took me some time to "assimilate" them as direct canon continuations of the events of the Majin Buu arc in Z in the 10 year gap between Kid Buu's defeat and the last 3 episodes of Z (Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub). Toriyama didn't really need to retcon BoG or Fukkatsu no F at all, but this has been thoroughly discussed previously and the best conclusion we can get to is that he did so so that we could properly explore and expand Beerus' and Whis' backgrounds, as well as the entire process of the transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, with more time. He definitely wanted to turn the main elements from BoG and Fukkatsu no F into differently-told entire arcs covering a number of episodes without any sort of time restraints typical of movies.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

SSJG will probably be thrown out once Bluper comes into the picture. SSJG is a temporary form, while SSGSS is basically mastering it's power.

Yes exactly SSG was always meant to be temporary, hence thats why it can only be achieved by that ritual, if Goku hadn't gone SSGSS then he would have simply been in his base.

[SuperSayanJim]

Regarding SSJGSSJ(which I will refer to as GPSSJ "God Power Super Saiyan" because I think it's a more suiting name), I don't think it's going to replace SSJG altogether.

The way I've pretty much always interpreted it, is that GPSSJ is weaker than SSJG and is a stepping stone for Goku and Vegeta as they continue to go toward reaching SSJG on their own..

No, Goku absorbed SSG and has SSG power available to him in his base form. He's basically always a God now, and when you combine that with SS, you get SSGSS.

This is from an interview with Toriyama

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

Well, he's retelling the movies, so maybe this is subject to change... I also prefer SSG form to SSGSS

[UpFromTheSkies]

Regarding SSJGSSJ(which I will refer to as GPSSJ "God Power Super Saiyan" because I think it's a more suiting name), I don't think it's going to replace SSJG altogether.

The way I've pretty much always interpreted it, is that GPSSJ is weaker than SSJG and is a stepping stone for Goku and Vegeta as they continue to go toward reaching SSJG on their own..

No, Goku absorbed SSG and has SSG power available to him in his base form. He's basically always a God now, and when you combine that with SS, you get SSGSS.

This is from an interview with Toriyama

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

But it begs the question about the /entire/ ending scene in Battle of Gods... Why was Super Saiyan regular blonde and not blue? Why was it even possible for him to go back into God?

I don't think he fully absorbed the God power until he had transformed on his own when Beerus was about to destroy the Earth.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

With the confirmation that the "F" is being adapted it's safe to say that SSG will be benched for SSGSS. Since the "F" movie was basically just Goku, Vegeta and Freeza showing off their new forms, and basically training for Goku and Vegeta too. There really is not much more the TV adaption can do differently which is why I also think they won't change anything major in BoG, we just about bought Freeza as a threat if in BoG arc we see our heroes go up against both Beerus and Champa then it would be hard to see Freeza has a follow up threat, I could be very wrong though we'll just have to wait for more information on the BoG arc I suppose.

[SansrivaaL]

I personally dont think super saiyan god super saiyan is a true super saiyan god form either because goku is still pretty weak compared to beerus and whis. Goku is still regadless of his power is very squishy with that Freeza laser thing and him almost dying by beerus sun busting attack.
If Goku had an God armor and a blue super saiyan hair, I think then you could trully consider him a super saiyan god who can make beerus and maybe even whis run for their money XD

I remember Akira Toriyama mentioning that eventually its possible that the saiyans will surpass them so all hope is not lost with them getting more powerful, hopefully TOEI delivers some good feats for us like what they did with the finger tap and them leaving the planet that fast. I mean if they showed a feat like that in a non fight ep theres no telling what they might do in a fight ep (this is me being naive about that but the heck with it I wanna stay possitive with the whole feat stuffs)

[Captain Space]

I mean, they could also just get much more powerful in SSGSS. There's a world of variation within one form (Namek SSJ Goku vs. Cell Games SSJ Goku; adult SSJ2 Gohan vs. Majin Vegeta).

[pacz360]

I wonder what planet both beerus and whis are going to?

[MaGyunia]

I mean, they could also just get much more powerful in SSGSS. There's a world of variation within one form (Namek SSJ Goku vs. Cell Games SSJ Goku; adult SSJ2 Gohan vs. Majin Vegeta).

Goku as a Super Saiya-jin on Namek against Freeza, the first time we were introduced to the concept of any form of SSJ (besides Vegeta's mentions about it earlier in the arc), is much, much weaker than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin Full Power at the Cell Games against Cell. There was an enormous amount of instances of fighters surpassing each other's powers throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, a new, stronger fighter is introduced almost in every 5 episodes on average during the entire saga, things got quite hectic on that department, as they in fact did in the Freeza and Majin Buu arcs. That's one of the major points of DBZ: to have a new villain introduced with a level of power surpassing that of previous enemies, and the need to attain new stages and overcome their limits so they can keep up and keep surpassing both themselves and the others on a constant basis. Adult Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan might be slightly weaker than teen SSJ2 Gohan, but he's still not that much weaker than Majin Vegeta, who's basically exactly on par with Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku when they fight early in the Majin Buu arc. Piccolo himself struggles to compare Majin Vegeta's strength to that of SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games when Vegeta is beating the shit out of Majin Buu, although he ends up conceding that Vegeta is even beyond Gohan when he thrashed Cell.

The potential for developments and reaching of new stages in the Saiya-jin race might just be virtually limitless. While I've never regarded Super Saiya-jin God or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (or Super Saiya-jin 4 in GT, for that matter) as direct follow-ups of all the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, but rather separate states achieved through a different special method, we could argue that there might be and probably is room for limitless improvement in terms of power and new SSJ states even beyond Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. That's basically what they mean when they refer to the fighting-race Saiya-jin as battle maniacs capable of basically unbelievable feats, with seemingly no limits to how strong they can get and how much they can improve even when they're supposed or thought to have reached their final evolution.

Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek is slightly stronger than 100% Freeza, Mirai no Trunks is slightly stronger than that, SSJ Vegeta against #19 is slightly above that but weaker than #17 or #18. It took the achievement of a new SSJ sub-type state within the first Super Saiya-jin stage for the Saiya-jin to fight on par or above the Jinzouningen, Piccolo and Cell: Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, the stage Vegeta is when he fights Cell, who in his second form is much stronger than #17 or #18. Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Mirai no Trunks is even stronger than SSJ Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, but weaker than Cell in his perfect form. Goku and Gohan in their Super Saiya-jin Full Power stages at the Cell Games are close to Cell in his perfect form in terms of power, but Cell still has the upper hand; it took another transformation, the one which TRULY goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin" to kill Cell, Super Saiya-jin 2. Teen Gohan as a SSJ2 is much stronger than Cell in his perfect form, but slightly weaker than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 when they fight in the Majin Buu arc, while both of them are weaker than any form of Majin Buu. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are much stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, but still weaker than more than one form of Super Buu, who at his strongest could only be beaten by Vegitto, who at the time of his introduction was basically twice as strong as a Super Saiya-jin 3 or Ultimate Gohan and pretty much the strongest character of the entire series (even when compared to movie 12 Gogeta, who isn't even canon). After that, it took the likes of Beerus and Whis to surpass Vegitto, and I would place Super Saiya-jin God Goku in BoG (and DBSuper) in between Vegitto and Beerus. Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Vegeta are slight improvements in terms of destructive power when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, but they're still below Beerus and Whis and most likely Champa and his attendant.

This is a quite short version of the power increases and character surpassings as the sagas progressed, not anything even close to a detailed, full list of power levels by fighter. I have my own detailed version of that which is obviously subject to debate, and I've never shared it with anybody.

If at some point, most likely in the 6th Universe arc, we get to see new villains with a level of power similar or beyond Beerus and Whis, either they'll have to team up to defeat them or some new stage of Super Saiya-jin beyond SSJGSSJ will need to be attained. This is just speculation, we know literally nothing about the 6th Universe arc besides the fact that there will be a search for a new set of Dragon Balls, although, after the introduction of already-known characters such as Beerus, Whis and Freeza in his Golden form, I imagine Toriyama has prepared some sort of insanely powerful villain. If that happens, I hope we get to see major fights and dramatic turns of events with really messed-up psychotic villains such as what we had in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, the Majin Buu arcs.

[Barunks]

Has there ever actually been official confirmation of how strong blue super saiyan is compared with SSG, Beerus, Whis, or SS4 or is everyone still speculating based upon their biases?

[Doctor.]

Has there ever actually been official confirmation of how strong blue super saiyan is compared with SSG, Beerus, Whis, or SS4 or is everyone still speculating based upon their biases?

Whis said Goku and Vegeta together could beat Beerus.

That's about it.

[Captain Space]

Has there ever actually been official confirmation of how strong blue super saiyan is compared with SSG, Beerus, Whis, or SS4 or is everyone still speculating based upon their biases?

Whis said Goku and Vegeta together could beat Beerus.

That's about it.

Super is probably gonna confirm how strong it is, go more in-depth etc.

(I think this puts SSJG/SSGSS above SSJ4 at least? Since isn't SSJ4 Goku supposed to be on par with Vegetto, whereas they didn't even think it was worth trying fusing into Vegetto to fight Beerus in the extended cut? I may be remembering either of these wrong...)

[MaGyunia]

I don't mean this to turn into a power level debate, but here's a basic and not too detailed list of power increases including only Super Saiya-jin stages and the respective time at which they were present and against whom they fought at each stage, along with the arc in which it was first shown or attained.

From weakest to strongest:
1- Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs 100% Freeza on Namek - Freeza arc)
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goten (Majin Buu arc)
3 - Super Saiya-jin Chibi Trunks (Majin Buu arc)
4 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan (at the RoSat while training with Goku - Cell arc)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Gohan (vs #17 and #18 in Trunks' timeline - Jinzouningen arc)
6 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks (vs King Cold and Freeza - Jinzouningen arc)
7 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (when he comes back to Earth and meets Mirai no Trunks - Jinzouningen arc)
8 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs #19 - Jinzouningen arc)
9 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (vs #19 and #18 - Jinzouningen arc)
10 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks (vs Cell in his second form - Cell arc)
11 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta (vs Cell - Cell arc)
12 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks (vs Cell in his perfect form - Cell arc)
13 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan (at the Cell Games - Cell arc)
14 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku (vs perfect Cell - Cell arc)
15 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (vs Majin Buu - Majin Buu arc)
16 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan (vs Dabura and Majin Buu - Majin Buu arc)
17 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan (vs Cell - Cell arc)
18 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (after becoming Majin Vegeta and against Goku in the early Majin Buu arc and against Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
19 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku (vs Vegeta in the early Majin Buu arc and against Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
20 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (vs Super Buu - Majin Buu arc)
21 - Ultimate Gohan (vs Super Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
22 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (vs Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
23 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with the influx of power from all the others during the first attempt at becoming Super Saiya-jin God in BoG - Battle of Gods)
24 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (vs Super Buu - Majin Buu arc)
25 - Base Vegeta (against Whis with "assimilated" power of SSJG - Fukkatsu no F)
26 - Base Goku (against Beerus and Whis with "assimilated" power of SSJG - Battle of Gods)
27 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku (vs Beerus - Battle of Gods)
28 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (vs Golden Freeza - Fukkatsu no F)
29 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs Golden Freeza - Fukkatsu no F)

Not counting the movies or GT, of course. Although BoG and Fukkatsu no F will be or have already been indeed become "non-canon", I chose to include them and the respective Super Saiya-jin states shown there, also and especially due to the fact that we'll eventually see them in the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs within DBSuper itself.

And it's quite reductive to reduce this list to Super Saiya-jin states and characters only, but I'm kind of interested and amused at what your reaction and response to this will be. Even restricting this to Super Saiya-jin-only stages and fighters, this list can easily be altered here and there.

[Captain Space]

I mean, yeah, it's all up for interpretation--I'd put Gotenks much higher on the list in both cases--but like you said, not the place for a debate so I won't go off on a rant about why.