Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Bacon Skittles
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by Bacon Skittles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:36 pm
Better? I did not put a connection between Super Saiyan/3 to Golden Oozaru. When Baby Vegeta achieved Golden Oozaru, he was also Super Saiyan at the time. It can be assumed he was Super Saiyan 2 due to that being Vegeta's highest achieved form. It's also implied Baby Vegeta was Super Saiyan 3 at the time. I went ahead and left that branch off just in case. However with Black Smoke Shenron's magic, Legendary Super Saiyan 3 Broly is transformed into a Legendary Golden Oozaru and then into a Legendary Super Saiyan 4.
I also did not include branches for "jumping" forms. For example, Goku can achieve Super Saiyan 4 without becoming an Oozaru once he's achieved the form for the first time. The same goes for Super Saiyan 3, as he's demonstrated going from Base form to Super Saiyan 3. Finally, there is no branch from Super Saiayan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan due to the fact that it does come before the other. The SSG form is more of a variant of the standard form, and gives the user God ki. When the user masters the form, they become "Saiyan Beyond God." From there their Super Saiyan forms are God Ki based and have blue hair.
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fadeddreams5
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by fadeddreams5 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:23 pm
Looks good, only I'd link SSJ with Golden Oozaru as well. Not only is it obvious a saiyan needs to be able to transform into a SSJ to achieve that golden ape form in the first place, but I assume if a SSJ with a tail were to look at the moon, he'd automatically turn into a Golden Oozaru without first becoming a regular one.
Also, I don't think SSJ2 and SSJ3 are necessary for the Golden Oozaru form. Going by that logic, I would link LSSJ1 with the Legendary Golden Oozaru form instead of LSSJ3.
Besides that, great chart.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
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Bacon Skittles
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by Bacon Skittles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:28 pm
fadeddreams5 wrote:Looks good, only I'd link SSJ with Golden Oozaru as well. Not only is it obvious a saiyan needs to be able to transform into a SSJ to achieve that golden ape form in the first place, but I assume if a SSJ with a tail were to look at the moon, he'd automatically turn into a Golden Oozaru without first becoming a regular one.
Also, I don't think SSJ2 and SSJ3 are necessary for the Golden Oozaru form. Going by that logic, I would link LSSJ1 with the Legendary Golden Oozaru form instead of LSSJ3.
Besides that, great chart.
Except we see never see Super Saiyan turn into a Golden Oozaru. This chart is based on the flow of the on screen transformations.
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TheDevilsCorpse
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by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:43 pm
Bacon Skittles wrote:Except we see never see Super Saiyan turn into a Golden Oozaru. This chart is based on the flow of the on screen transformations.
I think that logic falls apart the moment you include game exclusive transformations in the line up, where it's possible to basically transform from one form into any other form.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)
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supercat
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by supercat » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:58 pm
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I think that logic falls apart the moment you include game exclusive transformations in the line up, where it's possible to basically transform from one form into any other form.
I'm going to have to agree with this. Transformations that have never been shown in the manga, or even the anime for that matter, are nearly impossible to accurately factor into the sequence. Something as straightforward as this would benefit greatly from the absence of complex speculation brought forth by game only transformations.
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Cetra
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by Cetra » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:30 am
Bacon Skittles wrote:
There's zero evidence that Super Saiyan 4 is tied with Super Saiyan God forms. GT is non-canon.
You confused something here. There is zero evidence that GT is not canonical. How so? There is no canonicity. Everything is in an undefined area. And Dragon Ball Super by now should show that. So stop bringing that up again as long as they don't decide about actual connections. It won't work.
Hitiro wrote:Cetra wrote:snip
The actual dialogue from the movie says Pure-hearted Saiyan's. Not SSJ's. They did go SSJ when making Goku a SSJGod but being a SSJ apparently isn't a prerequisite for making a SSJGod. According to Shenlong anyway.
A pure-heart is the heart of a Super-Saiyajin.
"Citation needed."
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feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:41 am
Cetra wrote:Hitiro wrote:The actual dialogue from the movie says Pure-hearted Saiyan's. Not SSJ's. They did go SSJ when making Goku a SSJGod but being a SSJ apparently isn't a prerequisite for making a SSJGod. According to Shenlong anyway.
A pure-heart is the heart of a Super-Saiyajin.
You are both wrong. Neither Super Saiyan, nor Super Saiyan God require pure heart. Super Saiyan requires
tranquil heart, while Super Saiyan God requires the light of righteous Saiyans. Super Saiyan is also not a requirement for Super Saiyan God, and being a Super Saiyan doesn't make you good enough to create a God (Cell/Boo arc Vegeta or Broli wouldn't work). Fetus Pan wasn't a Super Saiyan obviously, and neither were the good Saiyans from the past, since they were stated to be weak compared to the evil Saiyans.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Cetra
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by Cetra » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:43 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
You are both wrong. Neither Super Saiyan, nor Super Saiyan God require pure heart. Super Saiyan requires tranquil heart, while Super Saiyan God requires the light of righteous Saiyans. Super Saiyan is also not a requirement for Super Saiyan God, and being a Super Saiyan doesn't make you good enough to create a God (Cell/Boo arc Vegeta or Broli wouldn't work). Fetus Pan wasn't a Super Saiyan obviously, and neither were the good Saiyans from the past, since they were stated to be weak compared to the evil Saiyans.
Just because Pan did not transform that does not mean she does not have a pure heart of a Super-Saiyajin. And I do not remember anything about a Super-Saiyajin needing a tranquil heart.
"Citation needed."
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feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:54 am
Cetra wrote:Just because Pan did not transform that does not mean she does not have a pure heart of a Super-Saiyajin. And I do not remember anything about a Super-Saiyajin needing a tranquil heart.
Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Cetra
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by Cetra » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:56 am
I hope that's a text from Herms and not the English version because that would not help me.
"Citation needed."
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feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:14 am
Cetra wrote:I hope that's a text from Herms and not the English version because that would not help me.
It's Herms' translations.James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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supercat
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by supercat » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:42 am
Well in a sense having a pure heart makes reaching a state of tranquility a far less challenging task. So from that standpoint, the two could be synonymous.
With that said, a pure heart isn't always a necessitated requirement. There are multiple ways one could obtain a status of tranquility that would ultimately pave the way for the legendary transformation. This would explain how two individuals with opposing personalities and aspirations were able to reach the same end result.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:27 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Cetra wrote:Hitiro wrote:The actual dialogue from the movie says Pure-hearted Saiyan's. Not SSJ's. They did go SSJ when making Goku a SSJGod but being a SSJ apparently isn't a prerequisite for making a SSJGod. According to Shenlong anyway.
A pure-heart is the heart of a Super-Saiyajin.
You are both wrong. Neither Super Saiyan, nor Super Saiyan God require pure heart. Super Saiyan requires
tranquil heart, while Super Saiyan God requires the light of righteous Saiyans. Super Saiyan is also not a requirement for Super Saiyan God, and being a Super Saiyan doesn't make you good enough to create a God (Cell/Boo arc Vegeta or Broli wouldn't work). Fetus Pan wasn't a Super Saiyan obviously, and neither were the good Saiyans from the past, since they were stated to be weak compared to the evil Saiyans.
How am I wrong exactly? I said that the Saiyan's had to be pure hearted. I was merely pointing out they didn't need SSJ to make the ritual work. That is what the dialogue said.. Kuririn(Or Piccolo, I can't remember which) even wondered if the ritual would work with Vegeta as he may still be considered a bad guy.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:37 pm
Hitiro wrote:How am I wrong exactly? I said that the Saiyan's had to be pure hearted.
This is where you are wrong. The Saiyans don't have to be pure hearted, they have to be righteous. It's not the same thing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:41 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Hitiro wrote:How am I wrong exactly? I said that the Saiyan's had to be pure hearted.
This is where you are wrong. The Saiyans don't have to be pure hearted, they have to be righteous. It's not the same thing.
Then what is the point in saying Vegeta or Trunks may not count? Being righteous would be pure-hearted anyway. These characters are without malice, treachery or evil intent. Which is what purehearted is defined as. Trunks was not included in the "righteous" side of things because he has a girlfriend at a questionable age. If it was just that they have to be a little good then him having a girlfriend at that age shouldn't be an issue.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:02 pm
Hitiro wrote:Then what is the point in saying Vegeta or Trunks may not count? Being righteous would be pure-hearted anyway. These characters are without malice, treachery or evil intent. Which is what purehearted is defined as. Trunks was not included in the "righteous" side of things because he has a girlfriend at a questionable age. If it was just that they have to be a little good then him having a girlfriend at that age shouldn't be an issue.
What are you trying to say? At no point it is stated that the Saiyans must have a pure heart. Righteous & pure hearted are not the same thing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:08 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Hitiro wrote:Then what is the point in saying Vegeta or Trunks may not count? Being righteous would be pure-hearted anyway. These characters are without malice, treachery or evil intent. Which is what purehearted is defined as. Trunks was not included in the "righteous" side of things because he has a girlfriend at a questionable age. If it was just that they have to be a little good then him having a girlfriend at that age shouldn't be an issue.
What are you trying to say? At no point it is stated that the Saiyans must have a pure heart. Righteous & pure hearted are not the same thing.
It makes no sense for them to quip over things like Trunks dating at his age if it was just about being righteous. The translation I had says "Good hearted" which is pretty much pure-hearted.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:12 pm
Hitiro wrote:It makes no sense for them to quip over things like Trunks dating at his age if it was just about being righteous. The translation I had says "Good hearted" which is pretty much pure-hearted.
Piccolo's logic was that Trunks was too young to have a girlfriend, meaning that what he was doing was not right, therefore, he wasn't righteous.
And no, good hearted & pure hearted aren't the same thing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:40 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Hitiro wrote:It makes no sense for them to quip over things like Trunks dating at his age if it was just about being righteous. The translation I had says "Good hearted" which is pretty much pure-hearted.
Piccolo's logic was that Trunks was too young to have a girlfriend, meaning that what he was doing was not right, therefore, he wasn't righteous.
That's illogical because you can be righteous without having every facet of your life be good. Piccolo's logic doesn't make sense unless he meant something like pure hearted. Because as far as I'm aware, just having a girl friend at a young age shouldn't invalidate someone being a righteous person. But it would possibly invalidate a person from being pure-hearted.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:01 am
Hitiro wrote:That's illogical because you can be righteous without having every facet of your life be good. Piccolo's logic doesn't make sense unless he meant something like pure hearted. Because as far as I'm aware, just having a girl friend at a young age shouldn't invalidate someone being a righteous person. But it would possibly invalidate a person from being pure-hearted.
So, what do you want me to do? Rewrite the movie because it goes against your opinion of what makes someone righteous in a gag scene?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
