No that's a rule based off your own opinion..h0kuten wrote:No that's just logic.
As was stated before, Vegeta probably stopped sensing the planet after Goku lost his body. So he wouldn't have the chance to sense Goku.
Can you prove he couldn't?SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:No that's a rule based off your own opinion..h0kuten wrote:No that's just logic.
As was stated before, Vegeta probably stopped sensing the planet after Goku lost his body. So he wouldn't have the chance to sense Goku.
Can you prove Vegeta had sensed SS3 Goku at any point before Pure Boo?
Uhh.. no.. that doesn't matter, though. You need to prove he did, you can't just say something with no backing evidence and expect someone to prove it wrong, that's a fallacy.h0kuten wrote:Can you prove he couldn't?
How does that relate to Vegeta?h0kuten wrote:a) Vegetto lost his body and it didn't matter.
Because he saw SS3 Goku in action against Fat Boo. He knew how strong Boo was, and he saw Goku was stronger than that. That doesn't require feeling Ki. We also know by Goku's own admission that he wasn't giving it his all during that fight, so Vegeta's surprise can just be from seeing Goku going all out.h0kuten wrote:b) Vegeta has a set expectation of Goku Ssje and he saws he saw it previously.
It does matter. If we have grounds that say Vegeta could 'sense' and see what was happening on Earth than it's only logical he could sense and 'feel' what was happening on Earth.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Uhh.. no.. that doesn't matter, though. You need to prove he did, you can't just say something with no backing evidence and expect someone to prove it wrong, that's a fallacy.h0kuten wrote:Can you prove he couldn't?How does that relate to Vegeta?h0kuten wrote:a) Vegetto lost his body and it didn't matter.Because he saw SS3 Goku in action against Fat Boo. He knew how strong Boo was, and he saw Goku was stronger than that. That doesn't require feeling Ki. We also know by Goku's own admission that he wasn't giving it his all during that fight, so Vegeta's surprise can just be from seeing Goku going all out.h0kuten wrote:b) Vegeta has a set expectation of Goku Ssje and he saws he saw it previously.
What grounds do we have to say Vegeta could feel the Ki from Earth? All we know is that he was aware of the events.It does matter. If we have grounds that say Vegeta could 'sense' and see what was happening on Earth than it's only logical he could sense and 'feel' what was happening on Earth.
Which statement?I've already a statement that says so. You don't have anything saying otherwise.
Different character and different context, so too many assumptions for you to make to say Vegeta felt Goku's Ki.It relates to Vegeta because Vegetto lost his body, like Vegeta, but didn't loose his powers.
Again, let's agree to disagree.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:What grounds do we have to say Vegeta could feel the Ki from Earth? All we know is that he was aware of the events.It does matter. If we have grounds that say Vegeta could 'sense' and see what was happening on Earth than it's only logical he could sense and 'feel' what was happening on Earth.Which statement?I've already a statement that says so. You don't have anything saying otherwise.Different character and different context, so too many assumptions for you to make to say Vegeta felt Goku's Ki.It relates to Vegeta because Vegetto lost his body, like Vegeta, but didn't loose his powers.
No, he said they would have no choice to beat him to get out of there. Not that they will beat him. There is a difference. The first is a "passing comment", look up the definition. And the second is a statement.h0kuten wrote:Goku still says they will defeat Majin Buu.
It is a "passing comment" what don't you understand about that? And no, Evil Boo is saying that they can't beat him because they are incapable the way they are currently the only thing that was preventing them from being able to beat that mini Evil Boo was the fact that they couldn't fuse any more. It really doesn't matter if they are now smaller than fleas. That shouldn't effect how much damage the could apply to the mini-Evil Boo. Yes, it prevents them from escaping. But why would that mean they couldn't harm the mini-Evil Boo? That makes no sense.h0kuten wrote:There only way that's plausible is if Gokus is to turn Ssj3 during the duration of the fight. Also Super Buu says the reason they can't hurt him is because they are now smaller than fleas. Had it been under normal circumstances it probably would have did some damage.
Again, this is a "passing comment" it is not indicative of what they can or can't do. Like the example I gave before, if I was stuck in a cave with a boulder blocking it. I would say "I've got no choice but to move the boulder to escape" that does not mean I could move the boulder, it is a "passing comment" assessing the situation.h0kuten wrote:Goku says we've got no choice but to defeat you THEN search for an exist.
You obviously don't understand what a "passing comment" is if you think this. Goku said he would have no choice but to beat Freeza at one point even though he couldn't. That doesn't mean Goku > Freeza. It's a passing comment stating facts. Goku is stating that for them to look for an exit they would have to beat him first and then look for one. Again, a passing comment.Hitiro wrote:No, he said they would have no choice to beat him to get out of there. Not that they will beat him. There is a difference. The first is a "passing comment", look up the definition. And the second is a statement.h0kuten wrote:Goku still says they will defeat Majin Buu.
What's the difference? Goku blatantly says they will defeat him but Boo says they can't because of how they are now, smaller than fleas.
It is a "passing comment" what don't you understand about that? And no, Evil Boo is saying that they can't beat him because they are incapable the way they are currently the only thing that was preventing them from being able to beat that mini Evil Boo was the fact that they couldn't fuse any more. It really doesn't matter if they are now smaller than fleas. That shouldn't effect how much damage the could apply to the mini-Evil Boo. Yes, it prevents them from escaping. But why would that mean they couldn't harm the mini-Evil Boo? That makes no sense.h0kuten wrote:There only way that's plausible is if Gokus is to turn Ssj3 during the duration of the fight. Also Super Buu says the reason they can't hurt him is because they are now smaller than fleas. Had it been under normal circumstances it probably would have did some damage.
Super Buu says Goku can't hurt him because they are smaller than fleas. Than going says they will defeat him, in response, Buu says they can't because of how they are now. Quite clearly
he is referring to their size. Otherwise there would be no reason for Goku to be surprised that his blast couldn't hurt Buu.Again, this is a "passing comment" it is not indicative of what they can or can't do. Like the example I gave before, if I was stuck in a cave with a boulder blocking it. I would say "I've got no choice but to move the boulder to escape" that does not mean I could move the boulder, it is a "passing comment" assessing the situation.h0kuten wrote:Goku says we've got no choice but to defeat you THEN search for an exist.
[quote=""h0kuten"]There wouldn't be a secondary point that Goku is making unless the first couldn't happen under any circumstances. Super Buu builds on his smaller than fleas logic by stating that they can't defeat him because of the way they are now.
In the first episode of Dragon Ball Super, Goten imagined Chi Chi talking down to Goku and joked about her being the strongest person in the universe, implying that she may be even scarier than Boo, the former strongest being that anyone couldn't defeat on their own. This is how some people interpret that scene.TheGmGoken wrote:I honestly don't get this thread. I really don't. Can someone explain to me?
I just explained the difference. His comment was a "passing comment" it had nothing to do with his ability to beat Boo or not. He was just stating what had to happen for them to get out there. Not whether they were capable or not of doing it. That is what a "passing comment" is.h0kuten wrote:What's the difference? Goku blatantly says they will defeat him but Boo says they can't because of how they are now, smaller than fleas.
Evil Boo was on about his true self in this statement. There is no reason Goku nor Vegeta couldn't damage the mini-Evil Boo. He had changed in size too. Why would the small version be immune to damage like the big one. When Boo said they couldn't beat him, he was referring to his mini version. Size shouldn't matter here, mini-Evil Boo should suffer from the same disadvantages as mini-Goku and mini-Vegeta. So Boo was quite clearly referring to their fighting ability and not their size the second time around. Only the first time was he pointing to their reduced power due to size.h0kuten wrote:Super Buu says Goku can't hurt him because they are smaller than fleas. Than going says they will defeat him, in response, Buu says they can't because of how they are now. Quite clearly
he is referring to their size. Otherwise there would be no reason for Goku to be surprised that his blast couldn't hurt Buu.
I'm not really following what you are saying here. I already said he doesn't need to be alive to sense Ki. That's what I thought you were saying. As for Vegeta assessing how much power Evil Boo was loosing after each warrior, it doesn't make a difference with Mr. Boo. Because Mr. Boo was the Dai Kaioshin influence that was weakening Boo. When Vegeta removed Mr. Boo he thought that it would decrease Pure Boo's power to well below Fat Boo's level. But that isn't the case. It would look something like this:h0kuten wrote:Vegeta doesn't need to be alive to sense Ki. Goku was dead and able to gauge how strong a metamoran fusion could potentially be (but was never proven to be), yet Vegeta is dead and inable to sense Super Buu's Ki? Quite clearly Vegeta could assess how much power Super Buu was loosing after each warrior was removed. Yet he still blatantly says 'THAT' Majin Buu is stronger than I expected. The previous bar of expectations WAS Super Buu.
I've read the manga and Vegeta just exclaimed that he wanted to see the form with his own eyes rather than seeing it from afterlife, probably through Baba's orb or something. It is never explained how he saw the events.Hugo Boss wrote:...to not ignore your reply, if you didn't do that yet, I suggest you check the manga in the part where Goku is about to fight Pure Boo. It's all about Vegeta wanting to see what SS3 is capable of.
Except there is never any indication that Vegeta didn't already know how strong SSJ3 Goku was. The lines do not hint at him suddenly realising it. It's a possibility but is isn't fact. So this is a redundant point.Hugo Boss wrote:It happened that both Goku and Boo surpassed Vegeta's expectations, so there is likely no way anyone could know how strong they really were before that chapter.
The only reason movements are more useful than Ki is when you're using them to gauge the opponent against yourself. As far as we've seen the characters can't sense their own Ki. If they can follow the other persons movements then they must be on the same pegging. But Vegeta already knows he is more-or-less equal to SSJ2 Goku as a SSJ2. If he felt Goku's power increase up to 4x the amount he knew that he was equal to he is going to know that Goku is massively stronger than him. Regardless of movement.Hugo Boss wrote:Note that, in the Boo Arc, there a lot of implications about how movements are more reliable than ki sensing while analysing characters' strength. (I won't debate if Vegeta felt it anyway).
But like I said there is no way to confirm when he realised they were stronger than he imagined. As I said, he could have realised how strong Goku was before the fight with Pure Boo.Hugo Boss wrote:Vegeta said Goku and Boo were stronger than imagined and that came after Vegeta saw how they fight.
By not exerting your full power you also reduce your movements too. You aren't going to throw that fast or powerful a punch if you are suppressed. No matter how much effort you put in while you're suppressed you are capped at your suppressed speed and strength limits. So this shouldn't matter too much.Hugo Boss wrote:What I want to say is that you can't know if a fighter is exerting his full power until you see how much effort they put in the fight. That's why ki sensing is not 100% accurate. Not forgeting there are skills that might influence in a battle's outcome.
a) We should throw Kid Buu down to a 38 and Goku down to a 36 if it makes you happy. Goku also says 'we are simply no match for his strength'. Meaning they would fight together. Unknowingly to Vegeta he might assume he could play a role in a Ssj3 tier battle but Goku knows that he couldn't. Again, this is going off of Vegeta's expectations and the level Goku previously set as a Ssj3. We could throw Super Buu at a 42 and still nothing would be wrong with that. Nobody made a comment saying Kid Buu is an ant compared to Super Buu or even Buff Buu for that matter.Hitiro wrote:You have SSJ3 Goku as stronger than Evil Boo though. Which doesn't make sense. There is no reason for Goku to be lying about them not being able to beat Evil Boo. The circumstance of Evil Boo showing up inside and the circumstance of Pure Boo are exactly the same. Gohan and Gotenks aren't applicable in either situation and Vegeta's affirmed that he doesn't want to fuse in both situations. It is simply illogical for him to desperately want to fuse against an enemy he could beat and then be completely relaxed about fighting one-on-one with another. As I already stated, his comment about having no choice but to try and beat Evil Boo and then find a way out is just a passing comment. As far as we are concerned, unless he outright says "Don't worry, I can beat Evil Boo as a SSJ3", his statement about not standing a chance against him holds true.
Also, no. it does not make sense that Evil Boo would have a mini version of himself with the same level of durability as his real self. Even if it is part of him. That small version is only going to be able to hold so much Ki. It isn't going to be able to hold all the Ki of Boo's body. And if it did then Goku shouldn't have any trouble popping a whole in Boo. Because Ki acts as a defence. Something that small would have reduced Ki and would not be able to make a Ki blast big enough to do damage to Boo.
Let's also not forget that SSJ Gotenks was a character that should have been able to fight Fat Boo. Regardless of whether you think Fat Boo was more powerful (Which in my opinion would be illogical as if that were the case Piccolo would not have wasted any time in putting the boys into the RoSaT. Instead he chose the single day option, that screams to me that Gotenks was above Fat Boo. There would be no reason for Piccolo to do so otherwise.) SSJ3 Gotenks would be between 2x to 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. And seeing as Evil Boo is considered on par with SSJ3 Gotenks then SSJ3 Goku < Evil Boo <= SSJ3 Gotenks.
I think the fact that they require fusion for Evil Boo when they don't for Pure Boo is enough of a comment to show that the two are vastly different. Goku says they practically need fusion for Evil Boo. Yet when it's Pure Boo he is the first one to dismiss the idea of fusion, because he thinks they can handle him the way he is now.h0kuten wrote:a) We should throw Kid Buu down to a 38 and Goku down to a 36 if it makes you happy. Goku also says 'we are simply no match for his strength'. Meaning they would fight together. Unknowingly to Vegeta he might assume he could play a role in a Ssj3 tier battle but Goku knows that he couldn't. Again, this is going off of Vegeta's expectations and the level Goku previously set as a Ssj3. We could throw Super Buu at a 42 and still nothing would be wrong with that. Nobody made a comment saying Kid Buu is an ant compared to Super Buu or even Buff Buu for that matter.
You're ignoring the fact that the mini-Boo would also be affected by his size. There is no reason for him to be able to blow away a solar system while he is that size. If Evil Boo can use his full power there is no reason Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be able to. And if this mini-Boo does have access to his full power then the rest of his body should not have Ki. In which case Goku should be able to blast a hole out of there. There is literally no reason why mini-Evil Boo should be exempt from the size disadvantage.h0kuten wrote:b) They were already inside Boo's body. He should have access to his full power by default.
h0kuten wrote:c) A team of Ssj2s would be capable of fighting Fat Buu, Vegeta nearly took him out himself. All that was required was someone to clean up the mess and destroy Buu for good. This occurred at a time when Goku wasn't sure if Ssj3 would be enough, due to Buu's Ki being a lie and everybody over estimating Buu for what he was. So Gotenks being able to fight Buu isn't all that impressive.
Vegeta practically says no matter how many of them go at Fat Boo it won't make a difference. So a team of SSJ2's wouldn't be capable of fighting Fat Boo. The only reason Vegeta nearly took him out his because he used a very unorthodox method. Hence why he said "Not if we fight in the ordinary way." If Gotenks can fight Fat Boo then that still puts him above Goku by a fair bit.Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3
Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!”
Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…”
He wants Gotenks to train for the day before he fights with Fat Boo because any extra strength will increase their odds. They had to already be fairly above Fat Boo for Piccolo to be content with just training outside of the RoSaT. I don't think you get that.h0kuten wrote:Piccolo told Base Gotenks to train and train in preparation for his fight with Buu, despite knowing Gotenks could become a Ssj. In the Androids Saga we have statements that show Piccolo knows how strong a Ssj should be yet he wants to send Gotenks off to train.
Exactly, Evil Boo had become much more powerful than Fat Boo. To the point that 2 weeks of training plus SSJ3 were the only way to match him. So it would look something like this:h0kuten wrote:The whole reason Piccolo sends Gotenks into the RoSaT early is because Super Buu attained a body better suited for battle and was now able to sense Ki. So there wasn't any room for a full day's worth of training anyways and Piccolo had to act on the spot. Again, the Viz even has Piccolo saying Boo is still superior in every way.
You are reading this quote completely wrong. Goku says "If worse comes to worse, we can just fight again." That is to say that in worst possible scenario, if Gohan or Gotenks aren't alive/available to beat Boo, Goku and Vegeta will do it. And that they will train so this time Goku nor Vegeta won't lose even if they go one-on-one. He isn't saying that nobody was strong enough to beat Pure Boo. You can pretty much ask anybody on here. They will say the same.h0kuten wrote:Summarily at the end of the Kid Buu fight Goku says he's going to train.
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
Goku states he'll be training so this time he can fight Boo even one-on-one. At the current powers of the Z-Senshi, nobody is strong enough to defeat Chibi Boo in a one-on-one.
Well, Goku can hardly bring back a Boo that was made up of different Boo's. Now can he? He would be killing Mr. Boo for starters.h0kuten wrote:During the events of Dragonball Super Goku even says he's going to keep training to be able to defeat someone of Buu's magnitude. The only Buu previously referenced was Kid Buu and because Goku asked to have Kid Buu revived (But as a better person) it's only logical that he's the one in question.
I don't even know what you are saying with this sentence. Can you please re-phrase it?h0kuten wrote:P.S.
The only problem with your number is that you're missing one key-point of evidence. There is non after the boys finally become Gotenks. Everything else such as the anime, Viz, Daizenshuu all acknowledge that.
Hitiro wrote:I think the fact that they require fusion for Evil Boo when they don't for Pure Boo is enough of a comment to show that the two are vastly different. Goku says they practically need fusion for Evil Boo. Yet when it's Pure Boo he is the first one to dismiss the idea of fusion, because he thinks they can handle him the way he is now.h0kuten wrote:a) We should throw Kid Buu down to a 38 and Goku down to a 36 if it makes you happy. Goku also says 'we are simply no match for his strength'. Meaning they would fight together. Unknowingly to Vegeta he might assume he could play a role in a Ssj3 tier battle but Goku knows that he couldn't. Again, this is going off of Vegeta's expectations and the level Goku previously set as a Ssj3. We could throw Super Buu at a 42 and still nothing would be wrong with that. Nobody made a comment saying Kid Buu is an ant compared to Super Buu or even Buff Buu for that matter.
The kids needed fusion for Super Buu or any other form of Buu including the fat one. Nothing says the opposite of Super Buu. Based on all said evidence in the current debate at hand, I think it's reasonable to surmise Super Buu is imply the Base point of Ssj3 tier power for the Majin's like the Metamoran is for the kids and Ssj3 is for individual Saiyan users, with the exclusion of Gohan.
Summarily, Goku's statement about needing to train and train just to defeat someone like Kid Buu infers that Kid Buu should be on a different level of power than Goku Ssj3. Bear in mind that there is always the distinction made by Goku that neither Gotenks or Gohan could defeat a Kid Buu tier opponent in the future. True, they apparently had a roughly even fight but Kid Buu next shows full effort up until the Genki Dama, the art proves it. Further-more, Goku could only defeat him with a fully powered Kamehameha wave, which has been shown to be a 1.33x AMP. This could put Gohan & Gotenks & Super Buu all above Goku Ssj3, but still still not enough to defeat Kid Buu, hence why Goku needs to train.
You're ignoring the fact that the mini-Boo would also be affected by his size. There is no reason for him to be able to blow away a solar system while he is that size. If Evil Boo can use his full power there is no reason Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be able to. And if this mini-Boo does have access to his full power then the rest of his body should not have Ki. In which case Goku should be able to blast a hole out of there. There is literally no reason why mini-Evil Boo should be exempt from the size disadvantage.h0kuten wrote:b) They were already inside Boo's body. He should have access to his full power by default.
There is, because they are inside his body. Due to their diminishing of strength and Ki they are only able to perhaps hurt a small mini version of Majin Buu, but not damage or huge the whole thing.[b/]
h0kuten wrote:c) A team of Ssj2s would be capable of fighting Fat Buu, Vegeta nearly took him out himself. All that was required was someone to clean up the mess and destroy Buu for good. This occurred at a time when Goku wasn't sure if Ssj3 would be enough, due to Buu's Ki being a lie and everybody over estimating Buu for what he was. So Gotenks being able to fight Buu isn't all that impressive.Vegeta practically says no matter how many of them go at Fat Boo it won't make a difference. So a team of SSJ2's wouldn't be capable of fighting Fat Boo. The only reason Vegeta nearly took him out his because he used a very unorthodox method. Hence why he said "Not if we fight in the ordinary way." If Gotenks can fight Fat Boo then that still puts him above Goku by a fair bit.Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3
Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!”
Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…”
All Vegeta has to work with is Kuririn + Piccolo and the Kids Pre-ROST. Of course it wouldn't make a difference. In a physical combat the Fat Majin Buu wasn't able to tank any attacks from Vegeta and despite doing his last (in the series) and probably, full power up, he STILL couldn't one shot Vegeta Ssj2, even with an angry explosion. Even if Gotenks was slightly stronger than Majin Vegeta Ssj2 and able to fight Buu, he still wouldn't and doesn't need to be even HALF of Goku's strength.
Also Piccolo believed the boys to be their last chance in defeating Majin Buu, does this mean they would also need to be stronger than the previous tiers of strength that failed just because Piccolo thought so? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Gotenks is no exception hence why nothing says he is AFTER he arrives.
He wants Gotenks to train for the day before he fights with Fat Boo because any extra strength will increase their odds. They had to already be fairly above Fat Boo for Piccolo to be content with just training outside of the RoSaT. I don't think you get that.h0kuten wrote:Piccolo told Base Gotenks to train and train in preparation for his fight with Buu, despite knowing Gotenks could become a Ssj. In the Androids Saga we have statements that show Piccolo knows how strong a Ssj should be yet he wants to send Gotenks off to train.
I do get that, but it doesn't make sense. Nothing says Gotenks has to be stronger. Piccolo called the boys their only hope, according to your logic two brats who couldn't one shot Android 18 can somehow defeat Majin Buu.
Exactly, Evil Boo had become much more powerful than Fat Boo. To the point that 2 weeks of training plus SSJ3 were the only way to match him. So it would look something like this:h0kuten wrote:The whole reason Piccolo sends Gotenks into the RoSaT early is because Super Buu attained a body better suited for battle and was now able to sense Ki. So there wasn't any room for a full day's worth of training anyways and Piccolo had to act on the spot. Again, the Viz even has Piccolo saying Boo is still superior in every way.
Fat Boo: 15
SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT): 19
SSJ Gotenks(Post-RoSaT): 25
SSJ3 Gotenks(8x SSJ): 200
Evil Boo: 195
I disagree with those numbers for stated reasons above.
The training statement comes from Herms and the Viz + Daizenshuu all agree with this perspective. The only misleading theorizin' going on is fan interpretation.
You are reading this quote completely wrong. Goku says "If worse comes to worse, we can just fight again." That is to say that in worst possible scenario, if Gohan or Gotenks aren't alive/available to beat Boo, Goku and Vegeta will do it. And that they will train so this time Goku nor Vegeta won't lose even if they go one-on-one. He isn't saying that nobody was strong enough to beat Pure Boo. You can pretty much ask anybody on here. They will say the same.h0kuten wrote:Summarily at the end of the Kid Buu fight Goku says he's going to train.
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
Goku states he'll be training so this time he can fight Boo even one-on-one. At the current powers of the Z-Senshi, nobody is strong enough to defeat Chibi Boo in a one-on-one.
Before the 'worse comes to worse' dialogue Vegeta states that Good Buu might become Kid Buu again and that it might really mean the end of the world. Now this wouldn't be the case if Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks could defeat Buu on their own. Further-more, that's why Goku is saying 'if the worst' comes to worst; if Kid Buu destroys the planet not that there were other people who could defeat him.
Well, Goku can hardly bring back a Boo that was made up of different Boo's. Now can he? He would be killing Mr. Boo for starters.h0kuten wrote:During the events of Dragonball Super Goku even says he's going to keep training to be able to defeat someone of Buu's magnitude. The only Buu previously referenced was Kid Buu and because Goku asked to have Kid Buu revived (But as a better person) it's only logical that he's the one in question.
I don't think you were able to counter my particular argument here.
I don't even know what you are saying with this sentence. Can you please re-phrase it?h0kuten wrote:P.S.
The only problem with your number is that you're missing one key-point of evidence. There is non after the boys finally become Gotenks. Everything else such as the anime, Viz, Daizenshuu all acknowledge that.
Piccolo's comment about them needing to train was before he even witnessed them become Super Saiya-jin Gotenks, and there's only so much progress that someone can do in one day's time. Piccolo clearly makes no indication that Ssj Gotenks isn't powerful enough when he forms for the first time, and his only fear regarding Ssj Gotenks fighting Fat Buu is that Gotenks screwed around so much that he has almost no time left of the thirty minute time limit. Nothing about him not being strong enough to beat Buu, simply that he has practically no time left in the fusion.h0kuten wrote: There is no evidence that Gotenks lived up to any sort of expectations. No prophecy was fulfilled nor did anybody state that Goku's prediction actually came true. Everything, from Herms (stating Gotenks needs to train and train), to the Viz (with Piccolo + Krillin blatantly stating Buu is still stronger, to the Daizenshuu (which lists Gotenks as weaker than Vegeta). Fan theorizin' shouldn't over-ride three key points of evidence and reliable source material that says otherwise.
Which wouldn't make sense unless it was there to indicate, or at least suggest, that base Gotenks was above where Ssj Gotenks previously was. So, if that were truly the case, and with all the strong evidence that the pre-RoSaT Ssj Gotenks was above Ssj2 Vegeta, that'd end up putting post RoSaT base Gotenks above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus Gotenks had completely surpassed him.Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
Which wouldn't make sense unless it was there to indicate, or at least suggest, that base Gotenks was above where Ssj Gotenks previously was. So, if that were truly the case, and with all the strong evidence that the pre-RoSaT Ssj Gotenks was above Ssj2 Vegeta, that'd end up putting post RoSaT base Gotenks above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus Gotenks had completely surpassed him.Darkprince410 wrote:Piccolo's comment about them needing to train was before he even witnessed them become Super Saiya-jin Gotenks, and there's only so much progress that someone can do in one day's time. Piccolo clearly makes no indication that Ssj Gotenks isn't powerful enough when he forms for the first time, and his only fear regarding Ssj Gotenks fighting Fat Buu is that Gotenks screwed around so much that he has almost no time left of the thirty minute time limit. Nothing about him not being strong enough to beat Buu, simply that he has practically no time left in the fusion.h0kuten wrote: There is no evidence that Gotenks lived up to any sort of expectations. No prophecy was fulfilled nor did anybody state that Goku's prediction actually came true. Everything, from Herms (stating Gotenks needs to train and train), to the Viz (with Piccolo + Krillin blatantly stating Buu is still stronger, to the Daizenshuu (which lists Gotenks as weaker than Vegeta). Fan theorizin' shouldn't over-ride three key points of evidence and reliable source material that says otherwise.
It doesn't matter if it was before Piccolo witnessed them become Super Saiyans. Piccolo has been familiar with Super Saiyans for 7+ years. Also in the Androids Saga Piccolo is well aware of how strong a Super Saiyan should be. So if Piccolo tells Gotenks he needs to train and train, it should be applicable to his Super Saiyan form as well.
Piccolo clearly makes no indication that Ssj Gotenks is strong enough. As we've seen before, speed does not correlate with strength. So to just give Gotenks the benefit of the doubt for no reason, when nothing concrete has been established is just grasping at straws.
As for the Daizenshuu, that's your interpretation of what's stated. The Daizenshuu simply states that Gotenks "leveled up" so much in the Room of Spirit and Time that he surpassed Vegeta and the others, though at no point are the forms being referenced indicated. Given the vagueness of the Daizenshuu, the statement could just as easily indicate that base Gotenks had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta. In fact, this would be supported by what is shown in the manga itself, where Piccolo, before the boys entered the Room of Spirit and Time, indicated that Ssj Gotenks stood no chance against Evil Buu. Then, after the boys fused inside the Room of Spirit and Time, but before Piccolo realized that they could transform after fusing, Piccolo indicates that they've powered up greatly, and then comments:
No point has to be referenced. It speaks of Gotenks as a whole. He was weaker than Gotenks in Super Saiyan before he entered the RoSaT. The benefits of their training made them stronger than Vegeta because they weren't before hand. Again, grasping.
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
See, that's the thing. Piccolo's hope being contradicted doesn't have to negate Gotenks powering up vastly, only Gotenks being stronger than Evil Boo in base form.h0kuten wrote:Piccolo late contradicts his hopes when Gotenks Base can't do shit. He's a horrible Ki sensor and quite clearly makes a lot of bloated mistakes.
