The dislike for SSJ Bardock

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I've seen many people talk about their dislike for Bardock becoming a Super Saiyan in Episode of Bardock. Some say it was "unnecessary" and "ruins" the character. Some reasons given are pretty good and understandable, I agree with some of the points people make. However, some say it's one of the worst transformations in the series. Really? Bardock becoming a SSJ is the worst? Not Goten and Trunks etc.? Bardock is at the bottom of the barrel?

I'll just get it out of the way and say that I like SSJ Bardock. I also like the new SSJ3 form they gave him for Heroes...
C'mon, it's not the worst thing Heroes has given us...

Anyway, as I said I like them but I don't love them. I don't go crazy for it but I think it's alright. As I said above I get and agree with some of the dislike for it but saying it's the worst, really?

So to wrap it up I would like to know more of your thoughts on this. Do you think SSJ Bardock is as bad as people say he is?

[ShadowDude112]

The thing with SSJ Bardock is that, like, Bardock was this nobody who went against Freeza. Freeza didn't care and just wiped him out with the Planet Vegeta. Freeza literally forgot about Bardock until he saw Goku on Namek. Episode of Bardock makes it so Bardock is the Legendary Super Saiyan that everyone is talking about up until Goku's transformation. Now, EoB isn't canon, but it does seem weird that this nobody who couldn't even take on Saiyan Saga Vegeta, is not the Legendary Super Saiyan. The form looks cool, but it doesn't fit and just makes Bardock more than he shoukd.

[fadeddreams5]

SSJ Bardock isn't a bad thing at all. What people hate is how he achieves the transformation, and the fact that the new special tarnishes the developments of the original one.

It was a piss poor story, as well as a terrible concept with equally bad execution. SSJ Bardock, however, is not a bad thing at all, especially if it appeared in a re-envisioning of his backstory instead of a sequel to the original special.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't really get the hate for it.

[dae428]

I've just never been fond of the idea of a character like Bardock achieving SS in the first place. I've got nothing against the look. It's just the means and circumstances to which he achieved it that I feel make no sense at all. I'm pretty much rehashing what everyone else has said before, but Bardock was never really shown to be this gifted genius or incredible hard worker. He was just an ordinary schlub who happened to be a Saiyan. So to have him become a SS was just kind of a dumb gimmick like most of the transformations from Dragon Ball Heroes.

Still, I consider SS Bardock far superior to that terrible SS Goku Jr. which annoyed the heck out of me even as a kid.

[Rocketman]

It's also the laziest possible design since it's just Goku's Super Saiyan hair copy-pasted.

[dbzfan7]

I don't like it. The more special Bardock is, the less spectacular it is for Goku to have become so great. Goku was born from nobodies and became a somebody. If his parents are uber awesome then it takes away from that.

Vegeta: I am a super elite, born from the top hierachy of saiyans.

Goku: My father was the Legendary Super Saiyan of legend, which gives me even greater prestige.

Vegeta:....Shit.......

[Lord Beerus]

I don't like it. The more special Bardock is, the less spectacular it is for Goku to have become so great. Goku was born from nobodies and became a somebody. If his parents are uber awesome then it takes away from that.

A thousand times this.

I despise the concept of SSJ Bardock with a red hot passion. Part of what made Bardock unique was that he was remembered due to that fact that he wasn't a Super Saiyan. He was just a regular Saiyan who, among the thousands of other Saiyans, stood up to Freeza even though he knew he was going to die. That was what made Bardock's story and character so awesome and tragic. Then EOB had to shit all over that by having sent back in time when he was dying, which is the stupidest plot device in the history of writing and narrative, just to assimilate him into the Golden Haired Army, beat up Freeza's ancestor and make him a "badass".

Fuck. That.

Plus, with EOB making it seem as though Bardock was the original legendary Super Saiyan, it makes it seem as though that it was all in the genes that Goku would become a Super Saiyan, and not because he was his own unique individual. That single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan, and with that, arguably the entire portion of Z.

To hell with SSJ Bardock and Episode Of Bardock.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well if you go by the TV Special, wasn't Bardock already the second strongest Saiyan behind Vegeta at the time he died? Why didn't anyone complain about that?

[B]

If you place any amount of stock in the importance of the lore around Super Saiyan, than I guess Bardock achieving it might upset you. It's triggered with the easiest, least original catalyst. But then, you would have to place any amount of stock in Episode of Bardock to begin with, and I don't really know why you'd do that. It's simple dumb fun. Just let the high-pitched cries of "Baaardock-sama~" wash and cascade over you. Sit back and marvel at Ryou Oonishi's fantastic Chilled cuts.

[Gonstead]

Well if you go by the TV Special, wasn't Bardock already the second strongest Saiyan behind Vegeta at the time he died? Why didn't anyone complain about that?

I don't remember that being stated anywhere in the special.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well if you go by the TV Special, wasn't Bardock already the second strongest Saiyan behind Vegeta at the time he died? Why didn't anyone complain about that?

I don't remember that being stated anywhere in the special.

Dub line. He is still very strong though, as he is a low-class warrior with a battle power at almost 10.000.

[Luso Saiyan]

What people hate is how he achieves the transformation, and the fact that the new special tarnishes the developments of the original one.

How? It happens after the TV special. Whatever happened there is not affected by what happens after it.

Not to mention that the fact that he's a 'nobody' is irrelevant to his ability to become a Super Saiyan in the future. Following that (flawed) logic, Goku should never be able to accomplish what he did since he was a 'nobody' as well.

[Doctor.]

It ruins Goku's character growth, yes I hate it. Goten and Trunks' transformations don't do that. Goku's story is about being an underdog that with pure determination and hard-work can reach great heights. He was born as trash and as trash he reached the status of a legend when everyone thought he would never amount to anything. Bardock's transformation gives off the impression that just because Goku's father was great, then OF COURSE, Goku had to be great as well, it all makes sense! No, it's stupid, it ruins Goku's Super Saiyan transformation.

And of course it also ruins Bardock's character, who was supposed to be WEAK (in the grand scheme of things), and it was that weakness that made his story so tragic, relatable and likable to so many people. You don't pick him instead of ANY other Saiyan just because he's Goku's father and then give him a bullshit power-up with the most stupid motive (well, not stupid, but late) when he didn't have the required power to achieve it (since he didn't get it when his friends died and NO power increase was ever noted since then). He's no tragic character anymore, he's not likable anymore, he's.... generic now.

Also add to the fact that Episode of Bardock as a whole was quite literally garbage, and it doesn't make it any easier to take it in. If it were a masterpiece, then.... it would still be bullshit, but it'd be easier to accept I guess.

[Luso Saiyan]

Goku's story is about being an underdog that with pure determination and hard-work can reach great heights. He was born as trash and as trash he reached the status of a legend when everyone thought he would never amount to anything.

And when did that change?

Bardock's transformation gives off the impression that just because Goku's father was great, then OF COURSE, Goku had to be great as well, it all makes sense!

How does one jump to that conclusion? Goku's status and potential as a Saiyan doesn't change just because Bardock was able to transform later whenever and wherever he ended up being.

And of course it also ruins Bardock's character, who was supposed to be WEAK (in the grand scheme of things), and it was that weakness that made his story so tragic, relatable and likable to so many people.

And that story remains the same. EoB happens after that.

You don't pick him instead of ANY other Saiyan just because he's Goku's father and then give him a bullshit power-up with the most stupid motive (well, not stupid, but late) when he didn't have the required power to achieve it (since he didn't get it when his friends died and NO power increase was ever noted since then).

So, just because he wasn't able to do it before, it means he will never be able to do it in the future? What kind of logic is that?

He's no tragic character anymore, he's not likable anymore, he's.... generic now.

Generic is the opposite of special. So which is it? Does it make him special or generic?

Also add to the fact that Episode of Bardock as a whole was quite literally garbage,

That's your opinion, not fact.

[Doctor.]

And when did that change?

The moment he was the child of the legendary Super Saiyan, I think that's fairly obvious.

How does one jump to that conclusion? Goku's status and potential as a Saiyan doesn't change just because Bardock was able to transform later whenever and wherever he ended up being.

Yes it does. If Bardock had the potential to transform, then Goku has the potential too because he's his son, because as we see in this series, the children almost always become strong due to their father's strength (King Vegeta -> Vegeta; Goku -> Gohan and Goten, etc). There were MILLIONS of Saiyans before who never ever got to transform, and Bardock was the only one who transformed? Bardock was just ONE in millions, it makes no sense for him to transform and it's clear the only reason he did was because he was Goku's father.

Now, you see, in the case of Goku, it's different. He was repeatedly stated to have surpassed the limitations of a normal Saiyan and went through Hell and back before he could transform.

And that story remains the same. EoB happens after that.

It does? His death remains tragic right?

So, just because he wasn't able to do it before, it means he will never be able to do it in the future? What kind of logic is that?

Nobody said he couldn't transform after. If EoB wasn't so badly written and he actually had a good reason to transform, then it would be easier to swallow. I'd still hate it, but at least it'd be believable, just like how Trunks and Goten's SS transformations are believable even though I dislike them.

The point is that NOTHING changed from the TV special to Episode of Bardock. The special never made reference to his power increasing, it never hinted at why he could go Super Saiyan now but couldn't before, he just achieved the transformation without explanation.

Generic is the opposite of special. So which is it? Does it make him special or generic?

Most Shounen protagonists are special. Most Shounen rivals are special. Most Shounen villains are special. Most Shounen anti-heroes are special. Most fathers of Shounen protagonists are special I'm not seeing your point here. Not being special is reserved to a select few like Goku and (pre-EoB) Bardock.

That's your opinion, not fact.

As is everyone's post here, so I'm not sure why this part of your post was necessary.

[mogi67]

Bardock isn't strong enough to achieve Super Saiyajin

[DBZGTKOSDH]

On the one hand, Bardock's death was perfect in the TV Special, and we didn't need him to return for more, expecially make him the Super Saiyan of the legend.

On the other hand, I like Bardock & his design in both the anime & DBO, and he looks awesome as a SS/2/3.

As for how it ruins Goku, I disagree. Bardock has nothing to do with Goku's growth. Bardock was like Goku, a trash that became a Super Saiyan. He wasn't special, and he didn't make Goku special either. Goku, while he was treated as a prodigy by Earth's standards, was still trash by Saiyan standards by the time Raditz arrived, and he still had to go through a lot to reach that level, and he went through even more to become the legend he became. Neither Bardock, nor Goku were born special, they both became what they became through hard work.

[Doctor.]

On the one hand, Bardock's death was perfect in the TV Special, and we didn't need him to return for more, expecially make him the Super Saiyan of the legend.

On the other hand, I like Bardock & his design in both the anime & DBO, and he looks awesome as a SS/2/3.

As for how it ruins Goku, I disagree. Bardock has nothing to do with Goku's growth. Bardock was like Goku, a trash that became a Super Saiyan. He wasn't special, and he didn't make Goku special either. Goku, while he was treated as a prodigy by Earth's standards, was still trash by Saiyan standards by the time Raditz arrived, and he still had to go through a lot to reach that level, and he went through even more to become the legend he became. Neither Bardock, nor Goku were born special, they both became what they became through hard work.

Do you think Gohan isn't special, then?

Do you think that Gohan would have become as strong if he was Nappa's son? I certainly don't.

Apply the same logic to Goku, do you think he'd be as strong if he's father didn't have a huge potential, unlike any other Saiyan? Bardock HAD potential, EoB never said Bardock had acquired a huge power, he transformed out of nowhere. Goku on the other hand TRAINED to become strong enough to transform and the story itself said Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits many times.

It's why someone like Vegeta is so strong, because he's king Vegeta's son. If Goku was someone else's son, instead of the soon-to-be legendary Super Saiyan's (!), then he wouldn't have such huge potential in the first place. Bardock being the SS doesn't make Goku strong from the get-go, but makes him have huge potential to achieve great heights, Bardock being a Saiyan like the rest makes Goku have to surpass his limits time and time again and go beyond his intended potential, like the story demonstrated.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you think Gohan isn't special, then?

Do you think that Gohan would have become as strong if he was Nappa's son? I certainly don't.

Gohan isn't special because he is Goku's son, he is special because he is a Saiyan/Earthling Halfling. Same goes for Goten & Trunks. So yes, if he was Nappa's & an Earthling woman's son, he would still be special.

Apply the same logic to Goku, do you think he'd be as strong if he's father didn't have a huge potential, unlike any other Saiyan? Bardock HAD potential, EoB never said Bardock had acquired a huge power, he transformed out of nowhere. Goku on the other hand TRAINED to become strong enough to transform and the story itself said Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits many times.

We never saw Bardock doing training, but he lived his life in the front lines, fighting all the time to near-death. If he was born special, he wouldn't have been a low-class warrior.

It's why someone like Vegeta is so strong, because he's king Vegeta's son. If Goku was someone else's son, instead of the soon-to-be legendary Super Saiyan's (!), then he wouldn't have such huge potential in the first place. Bardock being the SS doesn't make Goku strong from the get-go, but makes him have huge potential to achieve great heights, Bardock being a Saiyan like the rest makes Goku have to surpass his limits time and time again and go beyond his intended potential, like the story demonstrated.

Vegeta is different. Vegeta was born special, and his father was also born special. Both Goku & Bardock were born trash, and had to go through a lot to reach the levels they reached.