Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Doctor. wrote:Vegeta and Gohan met the requirements. Goku was said to have surpassed the limits of a Saiyan at 90,000; both Vegeta and Gohan were logically above that when they transformed, you can't even assume they were, on-screen portrayal of their strength pretty much confirms it directly (with Vegeta saying he too surpassed the limits plenty of time, and then Gohan surpassing that same Vegeta by managing to damage Freeza a bit). If a story is badly written, then the characters suffer too because of the writing. This is a case where the transformation is bad and the character's worth is lowered because the story is badly written (not bad just because of the power thing, but plenty of other aspects as well).
The fact that Bardock transforms means that he me the requirements as well. We have no reason to think that he didn't meet them.
Also, if I recall correctly, it was just stated that they found Bardock unconscious, not nearly dead.
My bad, you are correct. But still, Bardock was very injured, since he would need half a month for his wounds to heal, even with the special water, so he should still get a power-up.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But still, Bardock was very injured, since he would need half a month for his wounds to heal, even with the special water, so he should still get a power-up.
Surviving the events that he did, it's should be expected a significant boost in power, which helps explain one of the requirements.
Part of what made Bardock unique was that he was remembered due to that fact that he wasn't a Super Saiyan. He was just a regular Saiyan who, among the thousands of other Saiyans, stood up to Freeza even though he knew he was going to die.
This is something I can agree with.
Plus, with EOB making it seem as though Bardock was the original legendary Super Saiyan, it makes it seem as though that it was all in the genes that Goku would become a Super Saiyan, and not because he was his own unique individual. That single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan, and with that, arguably the entire portion of Z.
This however.
Bardock turning SSJ single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan? In my opinion, having every single Saiyan (other than Tarble and Paragus) becoming a SSJ right after Goku transforms into the warrior of legend ruins the theme of Super Saiyan.
It's a damn Super Saiyan bargain sale is what it is...
"I am neither Goku nor Vegeta! I am the one who will defeat you!!" - Gogeta
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:Bardock turning SSJ single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan? In my opinion, having every single Saiyan (other than Tarble and Paragus) becoming a SSJ right after Goku transforms into the warrior of legend ruins the theme of Super Saiyan.
It's a damn Super Saiyan bargain sale is what it is...
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't have minded Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan, or maybe not Gohan. But Goten and Trunks having Super Saiyan was really pushing it.
I never minded Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans as young as they did. It retains the whole "the new generation is stronger than the old generation" theme that Dragon Ball had.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:Bardock turning SSJ single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan? In my opinion, having every single Saiyan (other than Tarble and Paragus) becoming a SSJ right after Goku transforms into the warrior of legend ruins the theme of Super Saiyan.
It's a damn Super Saiyan bargain sale is what it is...
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't have minded Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan, or maybe not Gohan. But Goten and Trunks having Super Saiyan was really pushing it.
I never minded Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans as young as they did. It retains the the whole "the new generation is stronger than the old generation" theme that Dragon Ball had.
That was only a theme after Goten and Trunks became SSJs. lol.
Before that, Gohan was special.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Lord Beerus wrote:
I never minded Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans as young as they did. It retains the the whole "the new generation is stronger than the old generation" theme that Dragon Ball had.
There was a time that Bardock was the old generation and Goku was the new.
"I am neither Goku nor Vegeta! I am the one who will defeat you!!" - Gogeta
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:Bardock turning SSJ single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan? In my opinion, having every single Saiyan (other than Tarble and Paragus) becoming a SSJ right after Goku transforms into the warrior of legend ruins the theme of Super Saiyan.
It's a damn Super Saiyan bargain sale is what it is...
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't have minded Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan, or maybe not Gohan. But Goten and Trunks having Super Saiyan was really pushing it.
I never minded Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans as young as they did. It retains the the whole "the new generation is stronger than the old generation" theme that Dragon Ball had.
That was only a theme after Goten and Trunks became SSJs. lol.
Before that, Gohan was special.
And before that, Master Roshi was once the world's greatest and strongest martial artist, and Goku and Krillin were the youngsters looking to surpass him.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Well the whole idea behind Goten and Trunks conveniently becoming Super Saiyans could actually be deemed as a unique concept in my opinion. Every other character in the past was either subjected to a major life changing event, or some form of emotional turmoil. While having the kids inherit the legend as prodigies somewhat devalues the authenticity of the transformation itself, there really aren't a million ways you can portray a Saiyan transforming because their best friend gets blown up.
As for SSJ Bardock, I personally liked the transition he went through, as his transformation wasn't merely limited to superficial characteristics like enhanced physical strength and golden hair. It was coupled with a deep maturation in character as he evolved from a ruthless killer to a warrior, who to some degree learned to acknowledge fighting for a just cause.
supercat wrote:As for SSJ Bardock, I personally liked the transition he went through, as his transformation wasn't merely limited to superficial characteristics like enhanced physical strength and golden hair. It was coupled with a deep maturation in character as he evolved from a ruthless killer to a warrior, who to some degree learned to acknowledge fighting for a just cause.
Exactly. It's a nice little story and due to its self-contained nature, anybody can take it or leave it. It literally has no bearing on what happens before and after in the franchise.
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:So what I've gotten form this.
Bardock becoming a SSJ and hundreds of years later his son becomes one as well=Bad
Goku becoming a SSJ and from then on every (male) decedent of his becomes a SSJ=Good?
I don't think anyone thinks that the over-saturation of SSs is a good thing, that's one of the main criticisms of the franchise. That there was only one in a thousand years and yet everyone after that can become one and surpass it multiple times.
I, personally, just think Bardock's does more harm than the others.
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:So what I've gotten form this.
Bardock becoming a SSJ and hundreds of years later his son becomes one as well=Bad
Goku becoming a SSJ and from then on every (male) decedent of his becomes a SSJ=Good?
No, that's not it at all. The issue I have with SSJ Bardock and EOB is that it retcons, and quite sloppily, the whole legend of the Super Saiyan by turning him into Goku's ancestor, killing the whole mystique of the legend of the form and ruining the main theme of Goku's character; which was that he was a low class nobody who achieved greatness through hard work and determination, rather than relying of the past achievements and legacy of his family.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:rather than relying of the past achievements and legacy of his family.
But that's not what happened, how did you jump to such a false conclusion?
That's what the story of EOB implies though, for having Bardock become the very catalyst for what would kick start the entire plot of Dragon Ball.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bardock didn't just become a SSJ, but THE SSJ. Through him, Chilled passes off the myth to his clan. This myth causes Frieza to become paranoid for years, and might have been what led him to hold them in bondage. That paranoia leads to the destruction of Planet Vegeta, which Bardock is caught in, sending him to the past to repeat this vicious cycle for all eternity. And Frieza's rule is indirectly why Goku is sent to Earth, I believe.
Thanks to that special, it all starts with Bardock. That is so fucking stupid.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
It's all a different timeline anyway. The myth Chilled starts is to beware blond Saiyans. That's obviously not the same myth Freeza in our timeline was aware of, as he didn't know what happened to Goku when he transformed.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)
fadeddreams5 wrote:Bardock didn't just become a SSJ, but THE SSJ. Through him, Chilled passes off the myth to his clan. This myth causes Freeza to become paranoid for years, and might have been what led him to hold them in bondage. That paranoia leads to the destruction of Planet Vegeta, which Bardock is caught in, sending him to the past to repeat this vicious cycle for all eternity. And Freeza's rule is indirectly why Goku is sent to Earth, I believe.
Thanks to that special, it all starts with Bardock. That is so fucking stupid.
Thank you so much for beautifully summing up what a mess SSJ Bardock is, fadeddreams5.
If it wasn't for Dragon Ball Kai 2.0, I'd say that Episode Of Bardock was the worst thing to happen in modern Dragon Ball. Seriously, that special can rot.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
