Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

So, here's a sort of hypothetical question I have: going off a minimalist approach, what numbers would you give SS3 Goku, Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan based only on Goku's refusal to fight Boo and the fights SS3 Gotenks vs Boo, Evil Boo vs Gohan and Bootenks vs Gohan.

I ask only to focus on those because I'm just more interested in what people think the minimum would be to replicate the feats, not how strong those characters actually are.

Well there should be a sizable gap between Goku and Super Buu; he was very scared of fighting him, even with Vegeta's help (at 1/4 of Goku's strength, he could be useful), and was scared even before he knew SS3 drained power so quickly. He also plainly said in that scene that his strength was nowhere near Buu's. I'd say the minimum difference would have to be pretty big. As for Buu vs Gotenks and Buu vs Gohan; the first is one fighter having a huge but not overwhelming advantage over the other, while the second is the standard beatdown difference, e.g. KK x3 Goku vs Vegeta, Tenshinhan vs Saibaman.

So something like this:

Goku: 75
Buu: 100
Gotenks: 120
Gohan: 150

Where do you guys have the following fighters:

Future 17: 280 (moderately weaker than his present counterpart)
Future 18: 270 (ditto)
Future SSJ Gohan (one arm): 150 (Strong enough that he feels like he has a chance against 17 and 18 together while still not being sure, until 17 reveals that he was only using ~45% of his power)
Future SSJ Vegeta: 0 (I don't believe future Vegeta obtained the form, due to lack of motivation and devotion)
Future SSJ Gohan: 90 (I presume this is with two arms? Weak enough to consistently get smacked around by 17 when he's only using 40-45% of his power)
Future SSJ Trunks (Mecha arc): 160 (Gohan initially mistaking him for Goku, along with him only being a bit stronger than Gohan, suggests he's not that far above Namek Goku levels)
Future Piccolo: 50 (I have no real reason for this specific battle power; it's just a convenient number that's far below the level he got to by training with a SS non-stop, but still many times above his Namek level)

[supercat]

With the exclusion of the brief intro, I'm basically going to copy and paste what I wrote in in here.

With a high volume of discussions pertaining to the comparison of GT and BoG / FnF, I've broken down a some subtle clues I was able to pick up to help formulate some educated guesses.

After carefully evaluating the following observations, I strongly feel the numbers I have at the bottom reflect where each character stands. Please let me know what your thoughts are.

Based on BoG, we know that both SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Vegetto were likely worlds below Beerus. Had that not been the case, Goku would have at the very least given either route stronger consideration. Although we don't know the exact gap between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ Vegetto, we're hinted that the two are not that far off from each other in power. Personally, I feel SSJ4 Goku has a moderate power advantage over SSJ Vegetto.

When Goku turned SSG, he was able to put up a decent fight against Beerus. In fact, it was even deemed that the Saiyan was roughly around 60% of his seemingly invincible opponent. Looking at how much Goku has caught up to Beerus after becoming an SSG, we could assume that he too is now leagues above SSJ Vegetto and also likely his SSJ4 counterpart.

Considering how Goku was training prior to becoming an SSG, it would appear that cramming in some training was an option. Therefore, even as SSJ Vegetto, the gap between him and Beerus was likely something that Goku felt couldn't be closed with mere training. Knowing him, if he was even able to reach 40-50% of Beerus' power as SSJ Vegetto, he probably would have taken a shot at it, with post fusion training as his trump card.

Even with all that information, it's pretty difficult to determine where exactly SSG Goku stands in comparison to powerhouses like Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta. However, seeing how SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta (who are both likely far below SSG Goku) were able to tolerate quite a beating from Omega Shenron, my personal guess is that the Shadow Dragon is at the best only marginally stronger than Golden Frieza, but still below Beerus.

While Gogeta utterly humiliating Omega was quite impressive, I consider Whis subduing Beerus with a casual chop an even greater feat.

When all is said and done, I basically feel there is a lot of logic behind the following:

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 12 (12.5 or 13 at the best)
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Frieza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5


Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron > / = Golden Frieza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta > SSG Goku (BoG) > Super 17 (energy absorbed) > SSJ4 > SSJ Vegetto

[Noah]

Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron > / = Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta > SSG Goku (BoG) > Super 17 (energy absorbed) > SSJ4 > SSJ Vegetto

That doesn't make a clear sense for me... Omega Shenron is not that above a Super Saiyan 4, Goku could almost destroy him (if hasn't for his regeneration) after receiving energy from the others.

Also I don't see Whis being above SSJ4 Gogeta, since both didn't showed their full power in battles, for me Gogeta still is one or two step ahead him.

[Hero]

Imagine that for some reason Toriyama decided to stop with power levels after the fight with Raditz. What would your power levels for the rest of the series be? I always wondered about this since many of the power levels and gaps that are given later on are usually ragged on by fans for not making much sense.

I'll do mine up to Frieza.

Saiyan Saga
Saibaman- 1200
Yamcha- 1250
Krillin- 1350
Tien- 1500
Piccolo- 1800
Nappa- 2400
Nappa (unfocused due to rage)- 2000

Goku- 2500
Kaioken- 5000
Kaioken x 3- 7500
Kaioken x 4- 10,000

Vegeta- 6,000
Galick Gun- 7,500
Great Ape- 30,000

Namek Saga
Cui- 6,000
Vegeta- 7,500
Dodoria- 6,500
Zarbon- 6,600
Monster Zarbon- 8,400

Vegeta (2nd Zenkai)- 8,500
Krillin (post Guru)- 3,000
Gohan (post Guru)- 4,000
Guldo- 2,500
Recoome- 10,000
Burter- 10,000
Jeice- 10,000
Nail- 10,000
Captain Ginyu- 18,000

Goku- 15,000
Kaioken- 30,000

Frieza Saga
First Form Frieza: 50,000
Vegeta- 45,000
Krillin- 20,000
Gohan- 30,000

Second Form Frieza- 100,000
Piccolo (pre fusion)- 25,000
Piccolo (post fusion)- 100,000

Third Form Frieza: 150,000
Fourth Form Frieza: 300,000
Vegeta (final Zenkai): 200,000

Goku: 300,000
Kaioken x 20: 6,000,000
SSJ: 15,000,000

Frieza (50%): 7,000,000
Frieza (100%): 14,000,000

[supercat]

Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron > / = Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta > SSG Goku (BoG) > Super 17 (energy absorbed) > SSJ4 > SSJ Vegetto

That doesn't make a clear sense for me... Omega Shenron is not that above a Super Saiyan 4, Goku could almost destroy him (if hasn't for his regeneration) after receiving energy from the others.

Also I don't see Whis being above SSJ4 Gogeta, since both didn't showed their full power in battles, for me Gogeta still is one or two step ahead him.

I'm not seeing the logic behind what you're saying. If you do in fact feel that Omega is only marginally stronger than SSJ4 Goku, why would think that Whis is weaker than SSJ4 Gogeta?

While the Shadow Dragon was a formidable opponent for GT characters, he still likely falls short of Beerus, who we know is leagues below Whis.

The fact that Omega was able to tank a Big Bang Kamehameha from SSJ4 Gogeta shows that the latter isn't quite as powerful as some people claim he is. On the contrary, Whis was able to render Beerus unconscious with an effortless chop behind the neck.

Simply put, while both Gogeta and Whis were likely showing a fraction of their abilities, the latter was able to subdue a stronger fighter with far less exertion. Knocking Beerus out with a mere chop is far more impressive than failing to destroy Omega with a Big Bang Kamehameha.

If the gap between Omega and SSJ4 Goku is indeed smaller as you have stated, then SSJ4 Gogeta's feat of toying around with the dragon is even less impressive.

[Doctor.]

I like to put all of the BoG & up fighters above everyone in GT except SS4 Gogeta, simply because Goku said it's a level he could never reach with training. There's really no proof that suggests SSG Goku being that strong (as there is no proof for the opposite), so it's just personal preference.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I personally have Super #17 (post-10x KHH) equal to Whiss, SS4 Goku equal to SSG Goku, and Beers in between that. Same reasoning as Doctor., personal preference.

[LightBing]

My Power Level List so far. Opinions appreciated!

Disclaimers:

Spoiler:

- My personal canon continuity; based on Jaco the Galactic Patrol, DB Minus and the Dragon Ball manga. Plus tidbits from interviews of Mr Toriyama.
- Ki is influenced by one’s psychological state, it can be molded, amplified and exhausted, used for defense, attack and speed (take this into account).
- Organized from strongest to weakest in the arc in question.
- In progress...

Feats
Mountain/Moon busting – 100
Big City busting – 200
Planet busting – 10.000

Races/Groups
Average Human – 5
Human wall – 25
Freeza Common Soldier’s - 500~2.000
Common Namekians - 200~3.500
Saiyans Low Class - 500~3.000
Saiyans Mid Class - 3.000~10.000
Saiyans Elites - 10.000~∞

Multipliers:
Zarbon’s Monster - x1,30 base
Oozaru - x10 base
SSJ - x40 base + (Mastery)

Pre - DB
(The one where Earthlings had to fend for themselves)

Spoiler:

Tori-Bot - Pick a number, I dare you!
Nameless Namek -16.100
(In the Namek arc the Grand Elder, after reading Kuririn mind, says that hadn’t he split he could've survived the fight with the Saiyans)
Kami - 1.100
(Namekian splitting and fusing is as magic as their dragon balls. It is mentioned that Kami lost a chunk of power for lack of training plus he’s old.
Piccolo Daimao - 240
Mutaito - 110
(Kame Sennin inferred Mutaito was stronger than his younger self)
Kame Sennin - 90
Tsuru Sennin - 82

Jaco the Galactic Patrolman/DB Minus
(The one where Freeza spills his vegetable soup)

Spoiler:

Freeza - 530.000
King Vegeta - 12.000
(Freeza said he crushed the King and Vegeta that he surpassed him when he was still a child)
Kid Vegeta - 5.400
Bardock - 2.800
(He was a low-class warrior, but in it’s upper tiers as stated by Mr. Toriyama)
Bardock’s Partner - 1600
Gine - 700
(She’s gentle, meaning weaker)
Neck-less Aliens - 250~750
(Strong enough to have adults Saiyans deal with them)
Jaco - 325
(Can’t defeat an adult Saiyan so weaker than Goku at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai)
Kid Raditz - 270
Lizard Race - 50~200
Grandpa Gohan - 35
Monster Shark - 20
Kid Goku - 6,5
(Gohan mentions that if he wasn’t a martial artist he would be in trouble)

Dragon Ball Search Arc
(The one where everybody sees Bulma naked)

Spoiler:

Goku - 12
Hungry - 9
Oozaru - 120
(Had an even fight with Yamcha will hungry)
Kame Sennin - 50
Kamehameha - 100
Gyuumaou - 27
Yamcha - 9
Kurilin - 8,5
(Defeated a saber tooth tiger)
Chi-Chi - 7,5
(Thew her weapon with enough force to chop the dinosaur head clean off. Yamcha was impressed)
Bear Bandit - 7
Pterodactyl - 6,5
Boss Rabbit - 5,5
Oolong - 2,5
Pilaf - 2,5

21st Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where Muten Roshi murders Boss Rabbit)

Spoiler:

Goku - 40
With tail - 50
Oozaru - 500
Jackie Chun - 50
Kamehameha - 100
(Both of them were way ahead of the competition. All the trouble Goku had was the product of techniques and tanking, which didn’t do true damage to him)
Kuririn - 34
Namu - 26
Giran - 18
(Above Yamcha because of the decent fight against Goku)
Yamcha - 15
Ranfan - 10,5
Bacterian - 9
(Stinks in more than a way)
21st Budokai Preliminaries Participants - 5,5~8

Red Ribbon Army Arc
(The one where Goku learns about colors)

Spoiler:

Arale - Gag Power
Karin - 142
(Goku had surpassed him by the 22nd Budokai)
Goku - 58
After Karin training - 120
(After the Budokai Goku increased his power from the constant fights. The number given is where it capped before the Karin training)
Taopaipai - 100
Android #8 - 72
(Goku said his punch was stronger than his)
Commander Black - 10
Battle Jacket - 65
(His battle jacket was able to hurt Goku)
Sergeant Metallic - 47
(Right before the batteries ran out, Goku was going to fight seriously)
General Blue - 43
Buyon - 40
(Gimmick creature, he was a bigger threat than Android #8 and Sergeant Metallic because of his body)
Bora - 35
Pirate Robot - 32
(Kurilin said it was really strong and Goku that it wasn’t bad)
Octopus - 16
Ninja Murasaki - 11
(Even if he’s a gag character, he seemed decent and General White said he was strong but stupid)
Colonel Silver - 7
Bruce Lee look-alike - 6,5
General White - 5,5
Red Ribbon Average Soldier - 5~6
(They rely on their weapons)
Commander Red - 2,5
(Pilaf tier)

Urunai Baba Tournament
(The one where Hallowen attacks)

Spoiler:

Goku - 120
Grandpa Gohan - 82
(Goku was never in any danger besides the tail grabbing)
Akkuman - 69
Mummy - 56
(Muten Roshi said the old Goku probably wouldn't be able to win, meaning he’s stronger than 21st Budokai Goku by a bit)
Kuririn - 34
Pilaf gang - 25
(For each battle suit)
Yamcha - 18
(He was very eager and motivated)
Invisible Man - 14
(He’s supposed to be stronger than Dracula)
Dracula Man - 12
(He won against Kurilin because of blood loss and his gimmick)
Puar - 2
Upa - 2
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where
Goku - 160
(He’s ahead of Tenshinhan even if he lost)
Tenshinhan - 155
Jackie Chun - 139
(The number of from the Saiyan Arc fits. His substantial increase since the 21st Budokai is because he actually trained to return to regain his former glory)
Tsuru Sennin - 103
(He’s weaker than Kame Sennin as stated by Tenshinhan and he wasn’t even showing his real power by then)
Kuririn - 96
Yamcha - 91
(Said by Kuririn to be at his level)
Chiaotzu - 89
King Chappa - 77
(Goku beat him easily, Kuririn thought he went all out and by the reaction of Yamcha and Jackie Chun, Chappa was powerful but still a bit below their levels)
Pamput - 25
(Top fighter who reached the human wall)
Man-Wolf - 14
22nd Budokai Preliminaries Participants - 6~12

Piccolo Daimao Arc
(The one where Kuririn is dead by the first panel)

Spoiler:

Kami - 300
Mr Popo - 250
(He dominated Goku because of his superior ki control)
Goku - 160
Tired and hungry - 80
After drinking Choushinsui - 240
Piccolo Daimao Old - 210
Young - 240
(Dominated Goku with authority while old)
Drum - 188
Tenshinhan - 155
Yajirobe - 142
(He’s strong enough for Goku to be surprised)
Tambourine - 121
Cymbal - 100
(Yajirobe called him strong but defeated him easily after getting serious)
Elite Royal Guard - 35
(He thought he could do what the royal guard couldn’t)
Piano - 15
(A “Dende” type)

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where Goku gets hitched by beating his wife)

Spoiler:

Piccolo - 368
(The fight was even but there were two instances where Goku was in a pinch and Piccolo was interrupted)
Goku With training gear- 254
Without training gear - 360
Kami - 270
Without Shen’s body - 300
(He says he’s weaker by a bit in Shen’s body)
Tenshinhan - 231
Kuririn - 189
Cyborg Tao - 170
Yamcha - 161
Yajirobe - 142
Chiaotzu - 135
Chi-Chi - 102
King Chappa - 87
(No reason to think he improved all that much)
23rd Budokai Preliminaries Participants - 7~14
(Fewer participants, the cream of the Martial Arts World)

Saiyan Arc - Vs Raditz
(The one where Gohan becomes a man)

Spoiler:

Kaio - 4.000
Enma Daio - 2.200
Raditz - 1.350
(A bit stronger than a Saibaiman)
Piccolo First scanning - 322
Without training gear - 408
Makankosappo - 1.330
Scanned by Bulma - 329
Gohan - 710
Angry - 1.307
Normal - 1
Goku First scanning - 334
Without training gear - 416
Kamehameha - 924
Tenshinhan - 250
Kuririn - 206
Yamcha - 177
Kame Sennin - 139
Farmer - 5

Saiyan Arc - Vs Vegeta
(The one where Goku’s bones are over 8.000 pieces)

Spoiler:

Vegeta - 18.000
After Kamehameha and Artificial Moon - 6.500
Oozaru - 65.000
After Genki Dama - 1.400

Goku - 5.000
Serious - 8.000
Kaioken x2 - 16.000
Kaioken x3 - 24.000
Kaioken x4 - 32.000
Nappa - 6.800
(He didn’t step off after knowing Goku’s power level, when focused he did a decent job during the fight. Vegeta only dismissed him after Goku’s kamehameha defence, believing there was a chance of victory before that feat. He was barely scratched by the Z-Senshi attack, including a Kikoko.)
Kuririn Scanning - 1.083
Serious - 1.890
Genki Dama - 6.000
Gohan Scanning - 981
Serious - 1.440
Masenko - 2.800
Angry against Vegeta - 5.300
Oozaru - 3.220
Piccolo Scanning - 1.220
Serious - 2.900
Tenshinhan - 1.940
Yamcha - 1.710
Saibaiman - 1.200
Chiaotzu - 1.105
(Tenshinhan said he should've stayed back, which I gathered to mean he’s weaker than Raditz, therefore useless in this battle)
Yajirobe - 920
(Lazy training equals to smaller gains)

Namek Arc - Arrival
(The one where we met the rest of the Slug people)

Spoiler:

Vegeta - 24.000
After Zenkai - 29.500
Zarbon - 22.500
Monster Form - 29.250
After Vegeta’s surprise attack - 24.100
Dodoria - 20.000
Kiwi - 18.000
Appule - 2.800
(He was the only left standing from the Namekians counter-attack, Zarbon said he couldn’t handle the stronger Namekians)
Namekian Resistance - 1.000
Serious - 3.000
Kuririn Scanning - 1.500
Serious - 1.910
Gohan Scanning - 1.500
Serious - 1.740
(He got a small zenkai from the fight with Vegeta)
Freeza Common Soldier’s - 500~3.000
Common Namekians - 200~3.500
Freeza Scouts - 750
(One shot material for 1.500 power levels)
Dende - 30
(Vegeta mistook his ki for an animal)

Namek Arc - Vs Ginyu Force
(The one where the power rangers appear)

Spoiler:

Freeza - 530.000
Goku - 5.000
Serious - 90.000
Kaioken x2 - 180.000
Ginyu - 120.000
In Goku’s body - 23.000
Vegeta - 29.500
Vs Jheese - 72.000
Nail - 42.000
Jheese - 41.000
Recoome - 42.000
Butta - 40.000
Gohan - 15.300
Vs Ginyu 26.800
(Vegeta mistook him for Goku, Grand Elder unlock potential in effect)
Kuririn - 12.800
Vs Ginyu 22.000
(Grand Elder unlock potential in effect)
Gurd - 8.500
(Clearly outmatched by Gohan and Kuririn, couldn’t even see them)
Dende - 400

Namek Arc - Vs Freeza
(The one where Goku dyes his hair)

Spoiler:

Goku - 2.500.000
Kaioken x10 - 25.000.000
Kaioken x20 - 50.000.000
Super Saiyan - 100.000.000
After the Kaioken x20 kamehameha - 1.500.000
Genki Dama - 70.000.000
Damaged Super Saiyan - 60.000.000
(Goku doesn’t think he can defeat Freeza when he feels him transformed in his third form.)
Freeza First Form - 530.000
Second Form Suppressed 1 - 1.050.000
Second Form Suppressed 2 - 1.250.000
Second Form Unsuppressed - 1.750.000
Third Form - 3.000.000
True Form - 4.500.000
50% Power - 45.000.000
100% Power - 90.000.000
Damaged from the Genki Dama - 28.000.000
Damaged 70% - 39.200.000
Damaged 100% - 56.000.000
Vegeta - 230.000
After Zenkai - 2.000.000
(His Zenkai after the Ginyu force fight was not immediate but gradual and at least above 180.000, since he exploded a scouter that could handle those numbers)
Piccolo - 29.000
After fusing with Nail - 1.300.000
Serious - 1.500.000
Gohan - 83.000
Angry attack 1 - 285.000
After Zenkai - 620.000
Angry attack 2 - 910.000
(Grand Elder unlock potential still in effect plus the Zenkais)
Kuririn - 64.000
(Grand Elder unlock potential in effect)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I disagree with Gohan and Krillin being so pitifully low during the fight with Freeza. Is Vegeta really going to compliment their power if it's the equivalent to nothing (in comparison to Freeza's)?

I also disagree with Piccolo's power post Kaio's planet. Nail literally freaked out at his power. He also implies a hypothetical Kamiccolo could fight 1st form Freeza, so assuming you're like me and go by Piccolo's boost from fusing Kami being a 2x boost, Piccolo would be over half of 1st form Freeza's power.

I also think Gohan's zenkai is a bit nerfed. Vegeta seemed to have restored hope after seeing Gohan's power. I would personally keep him at at least 900,000 or so.

[LightBing]

I disagree with Gohan and Krillin being so pitifully low during the fight with Freeza. Is Vegeta really going to compliment their power if it's the equivalent to nothing (in comparison to Freeza's)?

I also disagree with Piccolo's power post Kaio's planet. Nail literally freaked out at his power. He also implies a hypothetical Kamiccolo could fight 1st form Freeza, so assuming you're like me and go by Piccolo's boost from fusing Kami being a 2x boost, Piccolo would be over half of 1st form Freeza's power.

I also think Gohan's zenkai is a bit nerfed. Vegeta seemed to have restored hope after seeing Gohan's power. I would personally keep him at at least 900,000 or so.

I have a hard time giving them a bigger number because of the ridiculous gain, but you're probably right. Gotta review that one.

Piccolo trained for 6/7 days besides the trip to Kaio. Nail said it was impressive, but 29.000 for a Namekian is impressive... The Namekian fusion boost isn't fixed, I believe. The Grand Elder said that a possible Kamiccolo could've survived against Vegeta and Nappa. That would be a x5 boost more or less. It's magic...

I think Gohan zenkai is fine. So that his later training before the Android Arc is more reasonably.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Might as well do a RoF power level list. Not guaranteed to be consistent with any of my previous lists, but here you go:

Tagoma: 25,000
Sorbet: 50,000
Pilaf/Mai/Shu: All under 2
Shisami (pre-training): 27,000
Freeza (1st form, immediately post-resurrection): 500,000
Jaco: 13,000
Base God Goku: 520,000,000,000
Base God Vegeta: 500,000,000,000
Whis: 1,500,000,000,000
Beerus: 1,000,000,000,000
Pan: 45
Krillin: 50,000,000
18: 220,000,000
Freeza soldiers: Ranging from 50 - 10,000
Master Roshi (powered up): 3,000
Tenshinhan: 45,000,000
Tenshinhan (Kikoho): 125,000,000
Piccolo (with weights): 750,000,000
Gohan (base): 100,000,000
Piccolo (minus weights): 2,500,000,000
Shisami (post-training): 2,300,000,000
Gohan (SSJ1): 5,000,000,000
Freeza (1st form, post-training): 10,000,000,000
Freeza (4th form, post-training): 400,000,000,000
Freeza (Golden form): 800,000,000,000
SSGSSJ Goku: 750,000,000,000
Freeza (Golden form, stamina depleted): 500,000,000,000
SSGSSJ Vegeta: 700,000,000,000

[ZombieVito]

I disagree with Gohan and Krillin being so pitifully low during the fight with Freeza. Is Vegeta really going to compliment their power if it's the equivalent to nothing (in comparison to Freeza's)?

I also disagree with Piccolo's power post Kaio's planet. Nail literally freaked out at his power. He also implies a hypothetical Kamiccolo could fight 1st form Freeza, so assuming you're like me and go by Piccolo's boost from fusing Kami being a 2x boost, Piccolo would be over half of 1st form Freeza's power.

I also think Gohan's zenkai is a bit nerfed. Vegeta seemed to have restored hope after seeing Gohan's power. I would personally keep him at at least 900,000 or so.

Not necessarily. Freeza never fought Nail at full power. I do agree though that 29,000 is hilariously low.

Also 2nd Form Freeza > Piccolo. Why?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I have a hard time giving them a bigger number because of the ridiculous gain, but you're probably right. Gotta review that one.

Piccolo trained for 6/7 days besides the trip to Kaio. Nail said it was impressive, but 29.000 for a Namekian is impressive... The Namekian fusion boost isn't fixed, I believe. The Grand Elder said that a possible Kamiccolo could've survived against Vegeta and Nappa. That would be a x5 boost more or less. It's magic...

I think Gohan zenkai is fine. So that his later training before the Android Arc is more reasonably.

Well, the gain overall is ridiculous either way, so I have no qualms with it... Vegeta did hold their power in high esteem, I doubt he's on to spare feelings.

Regardless of time, he's still implied to be a powerhouse. He's confident in helping Gohan against Freeza, Nail is amazed at his power, and he's confident in fighting Freeza despite knowing he's >>>>>>>> Saiyan arc Vegeta.

Kamiccolo could've survived Vegeta and Nappa, not beat...

Agree to disagree I suppose. I still have him making great gains into the Android arc.

Not necessarily. Freeza never fought Nail at full power. I do agree though that 29,000 is hilariously low.

Was Freeza not at full power? Vegeta was shocked that 2nd form Freeza could alter his Ki, which would be odd if he knew 1st form Freeza could.. Agreed that 29,000 is ridiculously low though... Nail literally orgasmed at Piccolo's power..

[LightBing]

I disagree with Gohan and Krillin being so pitifully low during the fight with Freeza. Is Vegeta really going to compliment their power if it's the equivalent to nothing (in comparison to Freeza's)?

I also disagree with Piccolo's power post Kaio's planet. Nail literally freaked out at his power. He also implies a hypothetical Kamiccolo could fight 1st form Freeza, so assuming you're like me and go by Piccolo's boost from fusing Kami being a 2x boost, Piccolo would be over half of 1st form Freeza's power.

I also think Gohan's zenkai is a bit nerfed. Vegeta seemed to have restored hope after seeing Gohan's power. I would personally keep him at at least 900,000 or so.

Not necessarily. Freeza never fought Nail at full power. I do agree though that 29,000 is hilariously low.

Also 2nd Form Freeza > Piccolo. Why?

A gaffe; that Freeza should be equal to Piccolo 1.500.000. Thanks for noticing.

I have a hard time giving them a bigger number because of the ridiculous gain, but you're probably right. Gotta review that one.

Piccolo trained for 6/7 days besides the trip to Kaio. Nail said it was impressive, but 29.000 for a Namekian is impressive... The Namekian fusion boost isn't fixed, I believe. The Grand Elder said that a possible Kamiccolo could've survived against Vegeta and Nappa. That would be a x5 boost more or less. It's magic...

I think Gohan zenkai is fine. So that his later training before the Android Arc is more reasonably.

Well, the gain overall is ridiculous either way, so I have no qualms with it... Vegeta did hold their power in high esteem, I doubt he's on to spare feelings.

Regardless of time, he's still implied to be a powerhouse. He's confident in helping Gohan against Freeza, Nail is amazed at his power, and he's confident in fighting Freeza despite knowing he's >>>>>>>> Saiyan arc Vegeta.

Kamiccolo could've survived Vegeta and Nappa, not beat...

Agree to disagree I suppose. I still have him making great gains into the Android arc.

Not necessarily. Freeza never fought Nail at full power. I do agree though that 29,000 is hilariously low.

Was Freeza not at full power? Vegeta was shocked that 2nd form Freeza could alter his Ki, which would be odd if he knew 1st form Freeza could.. Agreed that 29,000 is ridiculously low though... Nail literally orgasmed at Piccolo's power..

To survive Nappa and Vegeta he's gotta be 15.000 or more, I have his number in the DB-Pre.

Piccolo having confidence to fight Freeza doesn't hold any ground, he was at Kaio's he couldn't feel him. But, yeah he should be higher than 29.000 since like you said he had the Vegeta context. Vegeta times three so 54.000 seems like a perfect number. Where do you guys have him? Very silly gain, but I guess besides the 6 days of training he sparred with the others, while Chiaotzu catch with them during the snake way travel.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He could feel Freeza when he arrived on Namek, though.

I have him at 300,000.

[Rocketman]

So, here's a sort of hypothetical question I have: going off a minimalist approach, what numbers would you give SS3 Goku, Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan based only on Goku's refusal to fight Boo and the fights SS3 Gotenks vs Boo, Evil Boo vs Gohan and Bootenks vs Gohan.

I ask only to focus on those because I'm just more interested in what people think the minimum would be to replicate the feats, not how strong those characters actually are.

The bare minimum:

SS3 Goku: 1
SS3 Gotenks: 4
Super Buu: 4
Mystic Gohan: 5-6
Buutenks: 8

The way I see it, SS1 Gotenks is a stand-in for SS3 Goku, and Gotenks only stays alive because Buu is waiting for the 'great fight' he was promised. The hero has no chance at all to win unless they connect with a surprise technique, and even then they have to overkill several times to get over Buu's regeneration. However, they ARE still barely able to fight enough to launch that surprise attack without getting insta-gibbed, even if only by Buu not taking them seriously. Since Goku doesn't have any surprise techniques, he knows he's dead if he has to fight Super Buu.

Then Gotenks quadruples his power by going SS3, and they're basically even. Between Gotenks screwing around and Buu stalling for Gohan, neither is really going all-out, so there's nothing to go on for who is really better. At the very end, Gotenks lays a beating, but with Buu being Buu, again there's no way to tell how effective it was.

Gohan arrives and gets down to business spanking Buu easily and effortlessly. Trunks tries to downplay it some, but Gohan is both a good bit stronger than Gotenks and going full-force from the start, a deadly combination.

Then Buu absorbs Gotenks, adding the fusion's power to his own. The most important thing here is that Gohan survives thirty minutes. Even if you say Buu is toying with him, that is a long-ass time. It's far, far longer than 100% Freeza was able to fight with Goku, or Cell was able to fight SS2 Gohan. The last fights that took that long were, what? Goku vs Roshi surely, since the Moon had to rise. Earth vs Vegeta? The entire Freeza fight, with all the tag-ins and revives and transformations? Thirty minutes might as well be an eternity. Gohan is badly outclassed (and with Piccolo absorbed, he has no chance of outsmarting Buu with something like the kamikaze ghosts), but he's gotta be strong and tough enough to just be able to go that long.

[ZombieVito]

Anywhere in between 250,000 (Vegeta) and 75,000 (Krillin) is fine for Piccolo LightBing. I have him at 120,000 so his assimilation of Nail is a nice x10 boost.

You don't take into account SSJ2 Gotenks Rocketman?

[dbgtFO]

My Power Level List so far. Opinions appreciated!

Mutaito - 110
(Kame Sennin inferred Mutaito was stronger than his younger self)
Kame Sennin - 90

Well it was the improved 22nd TB Kame-sennin, who claimed this, so wouldn't his younger self be even more powerful than the 139 he had at the 22nd Tournament?

Jaco the Galactic Patrolman/DB Minus
(The one where Nappa is forgotten)

Come on, no Nappa?

Dragon Ball Search Arc
(The one where everybody sees Bulma naked)

Goku - 12

I don't see why you couldn't just have Goku at 10 here.

21st Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where Muten Roshi murders Boss Rabbit)

Kuririn - 34
Namu - 26

I would think Nam would be on par with tailless Goku, as he did pretty well Against the tailed one, certainly not weaker than Krillin.

Urunai Baba Tournament
(The one where Hallowen attacks)

Goku - 120
Grandpa Gohan - 82
(Goku was never in any danger besides the tail grabbing)

Still I always put Grandpa Gohan at least at Tao's level.

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where Goku gets hitched by beating his wife)

Piccolo - 368
(The fight was even but there were two instances where Goku was in a pinch and Piccolo was interrupted)
Goku Without training gear - 360

Yeah, Goku was in a pinch, but he did state quite confidently, that he was a Little bit stronger than Piccolo.

Namek Arc - Vs Freeza
(The one where Goku dyes his hair)

Goku
Damaged Super Saiyan - 60.000.000

Freeza
Damaged from the Genki Dama - 28.000.000
Damaged 70% - 39.200.000
Damaged 100% - 56.000.000

There's been a lot of debate about this in the past.. still not sure, where I stand on this

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The bare minimum:

SS3 Goku: 1
SS3 Gotenks: 4
Super Buu: 4
Mystic Gohan: 5-6
Buutenks: 8

SS3 Gotenks is an 8, since SS3 is x4 SS2, and SS2 is x2 SS.

[LightBing]

My Power Level List so far. Opinions appreciated!

Mutaito - 110
(Kame Sennin inferred Mutaito was stronger than his younger self)
Kame Sennin - 90

Well it was the improved 22nd TB Kame-sennin, who claimed this, so wouldn't his younger self be even more powerful than the 139 he had at the 22nd Tournament?

Jaco the Galactic Patrolman/DB Minus
(The one where Nappa is forgotten)

Come on, no Nappa?

Dragon Ball Search Arc
(The one where everybody sees Bulma naked)

Goku - 12

I don't see why you couldn't just have Goku at 10 here.

21st Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where Muten Roshi murders Boss Rabbit)

Kuririn - 34
Namu - 26

I would think Nam would be on par with tailless Goku, as he did pretty well Against the tailed one, certainly not weaker than Krillin.

Urunai Baba Tournament
(The one where Hallowen attacks)

Goku - 120
Grandpa Gohan - 82
(Goku was never in any danger besides the tail grabbing)

Still I always put Grandpa Gohan at least at Tao's level.

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
(The one where Goku gets hitched by beating his wife)

Piccolo - 368
(The fight was even but there were two instances where Goku was in a pinch and Piccolo was interrupted)
Goku Without training gear - 360

Yeah, Goku was in a pinch, but he did state quite confidently, that he was a Little bit stronger than Piccolo.

Namek Arc - Vs Freeza
(The one where Goku dyes his hair)

Goku
Damaged Super Saiyan - 60.000.000

Freeza
Damaged from the Genki Dama - 28.000.000
Damaged 70% - 39.200.000
Damaged 100% - 56.000.000

There's been a lot of debate about this in the past.. still not sure, where I stand on this

- That's a good point. But I believe during the battle against Piccolo Daimao he still hadn't reached his peak. So 90 here, 150 at his peak (Grandpa Gohan close to at his own peak) and 139 now.
- My theory: Nappa escaped the destruction of Planet Vegeta because he was searching for a cure for baldness all over the Universe, suffice to say he never did.
- Because during that arc Goku was far superior to anyone. And he was 6,5 when he arrived on Earth.
-This is one is hard, Nam had a good fight with Goku but he didn't damaged him much. Only his ultimate take put Goku in a corner. Goku was very easygoing during the fight. Hard to make a parallel but Kuririn is superior in my oppinion. Kame Sennin complimented him and they had a much closer fight than the Nam vs Goku. But feel free to refute the number might be improved upon!
- Goku had a much harder fight with Tao, I think it's incorrect to put them at the same level.
- Goku fought better/smarter but there had to be a small power advantage to Piccolo he tanked a Kamehameha and used some draining attacks like that exploding wave attack. Could you provided me with a quote?
- I'm quite happy with this number x40 feels correct, taking into account the events and Freeza's percentage talk.