Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[shinmaru]

I'm not sure I ascribe to that logic at all, as if anything, Dragonball repeatedly shows that by 'taking it easy' in regard to training, characters don't tend to stay still, they tend to go backwards. Take Gohan and Piccolo for example in that regard.

Additionally, taking it easy isn't in Goku's character. He's always looking to better himself in case another rival emerges, whether he's sitting at the top of the tree in regards to his own strength estimations or not.

That's why, Goku is training under 10G +? ? Tons. Don't get me wrong I don't have any problem with Bejita training only in 150G. But it would have made more sense to me if he trained under higher gravity.150G is nothing special for him. It doesn't give me the feeling as a viewer that he is trying hard enough to surpass Goku, like he did In the Trunks arc. Hahaha

[supercat]

When being compared to Beerus, even the unfathomable power of Vegetto was basically considered trivial. While we don't know the exact difference in power between Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku, we do have some implication that the gap between the two is likely not substantial.

Going off of that and also going off of how SSG Goku was actually able to hold his own against Beerus, I'd say the former is far superior to Vegetto, whose power in comparison to the destructive feline's was likely insignificant. This leads me to also believe that SSG / SSGSS Goku is probably not that far below Omega Shenron, the most powerful enemy his GT counterpart has faced.

Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron > / = Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta >/= SSG Goku > / = Super 17 (energy absorbed) > > SSJ4 > SSJ Vegetto

I wouldn't say it was considered trivial. Saying "even if we fused it wouldn't be enough" doesn't mean that Vegito's power is trivial against Bills's power. For all we know, Vegito could give him a good fight.

We know full power SSJ Vegeta who is >>>> Ultimate Gohan (rusty most likely), SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Gotenks etc. can draw blood from Bills as seen in BoG.

This means that people who aren't Gods CAN harm Gods, and that the gap in power isn't as great as one would think.

We know for certain, Whis > Bills > Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku & Vegeta > SSG Goku > Raging SSJ Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku

I'm pretty sure the fusion boost given by Potara earrings is well above the 10x boost to SSJ3 given by SSJ4. SSJ3 Goku (Base Goku gets a 400x boost from going SSJ3 iirc) is way way way way way way way below SSJ Vegito (who gets a 50x boost above Base Vegito). Assuming SSJ3 Goku and SSJ Vegito are equals (this is the minimum I'm considering), SSJ Vegito is 400x more powerful than Base Goku, so Base Vegito is 8 times more powerful than Base Goku. We can see that Base Vegito's boost over Base Goku is FAR above 10x, since SSJ Vegito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku. So, SSJ3 Vegito >>>>>> SSJ4 Goku.

Goku said Vegito at his full power wouldn't be enough to beat Bills. I'm pretty sure Vegito can go SSJ3 since Gotenks of all people can, and one half of Vegito can go SSJ3. So Bills >>> SSJ3 Vegito (but it's hard to say how well raging SSJ3 Vegito, like SSJ Vegeta, would do).

We surpassed GT levels a long time ago, guys.

SSJ3 Vegito could go anywhere as long as it's below Bills and above Raging SSJ Vegeta. We can't say for certain where he would be though.

During the time Goku made the remark, he wasn't even aware of the full extent of power that Beerus could tap into. Therefore, the implication behind the statement was that Vegetto's strength pales in comparison to even the suppressed power that Beerus displayed on King Kai's planet.

Based on Goku's track record, we can guess that if he felt there was even a subtle chance for victory, he would have gone for it. As I've speculated before, even reaching 40-50% of Beerus' full power through fusion may have been enough for him to give it some serious thought.

Bottom line: Because Vegetto was considered insignificant against suppressed Beerus, against full power Beerus or even 70% Beerus, the once unrivaled fusion is likely a trivial fodder.

[Draconic]

When being compared to Beerus, even the unfathomable power of Vegetto was basically considered trivial. While we don't know the exact difference in power between Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku, we do have some implication that the gap between the two is likely not substantial.

Going off of that and also going off of how SSG Goku was actually able to hold his own against Beerus, I'd say the former is far superior to Vegetto, whose power in comparison to the destructive feline's was likely insignificant. This leads me to also believe that SSG / SSGSS Goku is probably not that far below Omega Shenron, the most powerful enemy his GT counterpart has faced.

Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron > / = Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta >/= SSG Goku > / = Super 17 (energy absorbed) > > SSJ4 > SSJ Vegetto

I wouldn't say it was considered trivial. Saying "even if we fused it wouldn't be enough" doesn't mean that Vegito's power is trivial against Bills's power. For all we know, Vegito could give him a good fight.

We know full power SSJ Vegeta who is >>>> Ultimate Gohan (rusty most likely), SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Gotenks etc. can draw blood from Bills as seen in BoG.

This means that people who aren't Gods CAN harm Gods, and that the gap in power isn't as great as one would think.

We know for certain, Whis > Bills > Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku & Vegeta > SSG Goku > Raging SSJ Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku

I'm pretty sure the fusion boost given by Potara earrings is well above the 10x boost to SSJ3 given by SSJ4. SSJ3 Goku (Base Goku gets a 400x boost from going SSJ3 iirc) is way way way way way way way below SSJ Vegito (who gets a 50x boost above Base Vegito). Assuming SSJ3 Goku and SSJ Vegito are equals (this is the minimum I'm considering), SSJ Vegito is 400x more powerful than Base Goku, so Base Vegito is 8 times more powerful than Base Goku. We can see that Base Vegito's boost over Base Goku is FAR above 10x, since SSJ Vegito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku. So, SSJ3 Vegito >>>>>> SSJ4 Goku.

Goku said Vegito at his full power wouldn't be enough to beat Bills. I'm pretty sure Vegito can go SSJ3 since Gotenks of all people can, and one half of Vegito can go SSJ3. So Bills >>> SSJ3 Vegito (but it's hard to say how well raging SSJ3 Vegito, like SSJ Vegeta, would do).

We surpassed GT levels a long time ago, guys.

SSJ3 Vegito could go anywhere as long as it's below Bills and above Raging SSJ Vegeta. We can't say for certain where he would be though.

During the time Goku made the remark, he wasn't even aware of the full extent of power that Beerus could tap into. Therefore, the implication behind the statement was that Vegetto's strength pales in comparison to even the suppressed power that Beerus displayed on King Kai's planet.

Based on Goku's track record, we can guess that if he felt there was even a subtle chance for victory, he would have gone for it. As I've speculated before, even reaching 40-50% of Beerus' full power through fusion may have been enough for him to give it some serious thought.

Bottom line: Because Vegetto was considered insignificant against suppressed Beerus, against full power Beerus or even 70% Beerus, the once unrivaled fusion is likely a trivial fodder.

Not that I am disagreeing, but it should be pointed out that we don't really know how much power Beerus was using against Goku (or the Z-Fighters, since we know Goku observed that fight). It's probably a tiny bit, but at the same time it could be below 50%, while still being pretty high, like 20-30%. Unless I am missing something said in the movie.

[supercat]

Not that I am disagreeing, but it should be pointed out that we don't really know how much power Beerus was using against Goku (or the Z-Fighters, since we know Goku observed that fight). It's probably a tiny bit, but at the same time it could be below 50%, while still being pretty high, like 20-30%. Unless I am missing something said in the movie.

The point I was trying to make was that if Goku felt that Vegetto wasn't enough to handle a fraction of Beerus' power, it's very plausible to assume that Vegetto would be a complete fodder against the Beerus' full power. My guess is Vegetto is somewhere in the range of 35-40% of the fractional power Beerus displayed on King Kai's planet. If Goku felt his fusion could bring him up to even 50% of Beerus (King Kai's planet), he may have considered taking the route of fusion more seriously. In any case, if Vegetto was only 35-40% of Beerus (King Kai's planet), then it's likely he's around ~15-20% of Beerus' full power.

[Bullza]

Which form of Vegito are you referring to when you say this?

[supercat]

Which form of Vegito are you referring to when you say this?

SSJ Vegetto, as that was the only form of Vegetto that was actually shown. The reason I even brought all this up was to explain how and why I felt that BoG / FnF characters far surpassed their GT counterparts.

In short, with the implication that SSJ Vegetto (who is likely worlds below Beerus) is more or less on par with SSJ4 Goku, we could assume that the strongest form of SSJ in GT (excluding SSJ4 Gogeta) falls short of SSG / SSGSS (who we know has a fighting chance against Beerus).

[emperior]

I think Goku was experienced enough to notice Beerus wasn't using his full power as he managed to ko Goku with only a finger.
Max power Vegito (SSJ3) might be able to take on what Goku thought Beerus' full power was, and we don't know if Goku guessed wrong or right.
Basically, the Vegito line shouldn't be used to speculate about power levels as we don't know what Vegito is truly capable of doing. He can probably beat the shit out of Whis and Beerus, even 1v2, as a SSGSS.

[supercat]

I think Goku was experienced enough to notice Beerus wasn't using his full power as he managed to ko Goku with only a finger.
Max power Vegito (SSJ3) might be able to take on what Goku thought Beerus' full power was, and we don't know if Goku guessed wrong or right.
Basically, the Vegito line shouldn't be used to speculate about power levels as we don't know what Vegito is truly capable of doing. He can probably beat the shit out of Whis and Beerus, even 1v2, as a SSGSS.

Why shouldn't it be used to speculate power levels? The bottom line is Goku felt that Vegetto would be useless against Beerus. Whether he was comparing Vegetto to the level of Beerus that he saw on King Kai's planet, or to the power he assumed Beerus would be at, isn't quite as relevant as the fact that the once unrivaled power of the fusion is now leagues below the destructive feline.

The whole point of even including that statement in the movie was to give the audience a sense of how powerful Beerus was. To assume what Goku said was inaccurate is like saying Beerus guessed wrong when he said Base Goku couldn't defeat Frieza. Why would the writers include lines like that without having them hold any truth? That defeats the purpose of having such remarks being made in the first place.

[Bullza]

I didn't see much in the way of feats in this weeks episode unless there were comments which I haven't seen because the episode hasn't been subbed yet.

He did lift some huge weights though.

[dbzfan7]

I didn't see much in the way of feats in this weeks episode unless there were comments which I haven't seen because the episode hasn't been subbed yet.

He did lift some huge weights though.

Whis made the lunch bag....disappear. How about that?

Maybe it could finally put an end to the stupid 40 ton crap.

[irreality]

I didn't see much in the way of feats in this weeks episode unless there were comments which I haven't seen because the episode hasn't been subbed yet.

He did lift some huge weights though.

Whis stated that he can travel at the fastest possible speed for this universe -- that is a feat. I don't know how it compares to instant transmission, whether that is not considered to be a speed.

[dbzfan7]

I didn't see much in the way of feats in this weeks episode unless there were comments which I haven't seen because the episode hasn't been subbed yet.

He did lift some huge weights though.

Whis stated that he can travel at the fastest possible speed for this universe -- that is a feat. I don't know how it compares to instant transmission, whether that is not considered to be a speed.

Slower. Shunkan Ido is instant. Whis' method of traveling is not instant. So long as Goku hones in on a ki signature, he can teleport there instantly. Whis has to take a precedent amount of time everywhere he goes. Though Shunkan Ido is teleporting and not a speed feat per say. In FNF I believe Whis mentions it'd take some time to get to earth, and Bulma suggests Goku teleport since it'd be much faster.

[SansrivaaL]

Old kai mentioning on the last part that this time not only will planets/stars disappear but the whole universe. - not that its something new and surprising because I kinda heard this comment from a certain character during the Boo arc.

[dbzfan7]

Old kai mentioning on the last part that this time not only will planets/stars will disappear but the whole universe. - not that its something new and surprising because I kinda heard this comment from a certain character during the Boo arc.

That can't be right. That'd go against what Beerus' job is for. He's supposed to balance things out, not destroy everything. If this is the case then he's no better than Boo.

[SansrivaaL]

Old kai mentioning on the last part that this time not only will planets/stars will disappear but the whole universe. - not that its something new and surprising because I kinda heard this comment from a certain character during the Boo arc.

That can't be right. That'd go against what Beerus' job is for. He's supposed to balance things out, not destroy everything. If this is the case then he's no better than Boo.

What old kai just said says otherwise. ... I dont take him being that serious with the whole keeping balance thing due to work, he simply does what he likes to do, make planets go boom and... make anything or anyone that pisses him off go boom.

Spoiler:

The old kai did say Uchu=Universe

[irreality]

In FNF I believe Whis mentions it'd take some time to get to earth, and Bulma suggests Goku teleport since it'd be much faster.

Oh, right! forgot about that line in the movie. Makes sense.

[Bullza]

Like dbzfan7 said that really doesn't make much sense for the character. He's supposed to exist to create a balance in the Universe, not to just outright destroy it.

The lines probably just hyperbole.

[irreality]

That can't be right. That'd go against what Beerus' job is for. He's supposed to balance things out, not destroy everything. If this is the case then he's no better than Boo.

You are assuming their theology works on a dualistic or ying/yang principle -- that somehow the "job" of Gods of Destruction is to balance out Gods of Creation and that they are neither "good/evil" but opposing forces: that is what Young Kaioshin is saying. Old Kaioshin was telling him that is not how it works: creation serves a purpose, destruction doesn't; destruction is chaotic, and destroys what it feels like. (Or at least Beerus' brand of destruction -- maybe other Gods of Destruction are more on the ball).

I think to a large part I "like" Beerus and don't want to see him as evil, because he is cute and catlike and doesn't kill our heroes. But he is pretty bad, even if it is in his Hakaioshin nature to be that way. Beerus is better than Kid Buu, though; he can be reasoned with and cajoled and bribed, and he has Whis to reign him in, somewhat.

[rereboy]

Apparently, Whis said in this latest episode that he is the fastest in the universe. So, that's a clear statement about his speed.

That can't be right. That'd go against what Beerus' job is for. He's supposed to balance things out, not destroy everything. If this is the case then he's no better than Boo.

It is right. It is specifically stated in this episode that Beerus follows no purpose, just his whims. Like it has been talked about, Beerus doesn't do what he does because it's his job and because there's a purpose in his destruction. That's just why the job exists. Beerus, personally, just does what he feels like doing. If the god of destruction was someone else, the job would be the same, but the person could do it very differently.

[Saiyan007]

Universe level beerus lel