The moral alignment of Beerus

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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dario03
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by dario03 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:19 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Where do you think Freeza aligns?

I'd place him there.
Basically this. Beerus' job just gives him a legal pass to do whatever he wants.
So what you're saying is....we need a parody where when Goku or Vegeta is about to blast Beerus they say
Beerus: Dip-lo-matic immunity!
(blast hits)
Goku/Vegeta: It's just been revoked!
(smoke clears)
Beerus: Nope...

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FoolsGil
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:16 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Where do you think Freeza aligns?

I'd place him there.
Basically this. Beerus' job just gives him a legal pass to do whatever he wants.
I personally place Freeza under Lawful Evil, all of his atrocities are in a "just business" sort of way. Anyone who would specifically blow up half a planet, because their gelatin is too fattening, is in the Chaotic spectrum.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:45 pm

dario03 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Where do you think Freeza aligns?

I'd place him there.
Basically this. Beerus' job just gives him a legal pass to do whatever he wants.
So what you're saying is....we need a parody where when Goku or Vegeta is about to blast Beerus they say
Beerus: Dip-lo-matic immunity!
(blast hits)
Goku/Vegeta: It's just been revoked!
(smoke clears)
Beerus: Nope...
Or he can do a version of this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WCZHMhe7Wg
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Rocketman
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:13 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Goku: Lawful good
Goku doesn't give any kind of a damn about laws, morals or social expectations. I can't even believe you thought that label fit.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:33 am

Rocketman wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Goku: Lawful good
Goku doesn't give any kind of a damn about laws, morals or social expectations. I can't even believe you thought that label fit.
What I mean is that he tries his best to avoid killing people and committing crimes. And he does care about laws, he doesn't just steal stuff from people because he could, for instance.
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:44 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:What I mean is that he tries his best to avoid killing people and committing crimes. And he does care about laws, he doesn't just steal stuff from people because he could, for instance.
Because he's still Good. But he's not Lawful Good, that would be Gohan/Great Saiyaman, who purposefully goes out to stop criminals because they are criminals.

And also he does steal stuff, ask Yajirobe.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:56 am

Rocketman wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:What I mean is that he tries his best to avoid killing people and committing crimes. And he does care about laws, he doesn't just steal stuff from people because he could, for instance.
Because he's still Good. But he's not Lawful Good, that would be Gohan/Great Saiyaman, who purposefully goes out to stop criminals because they are criminals.

And also he does steal stuff, ask Yajirobe.
Goku even encourages criminals such as Vegeta, the Ginyu Tokusentai, and Freeza to get away, which is a terrible thing to do.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by FoolsGil » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:55 am

Goku at best is either Neutral Good, or Chaotic Good. At the worst he's True Neutral

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Alex9196 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:38 am

beerus is a huge bastard and thats it. just because he has the title of a god doesnt give him the right to do what he wants. the gods in dragonball are also mortal and not allmighty. if kid buu would have been stronger than whis in the buu arc, the universe would have been screwed. because it doesnt matter if you are a god if someone is stronger than you he can still kill you. like buu did with the four kaioshin.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:03 pm

Alex9196 wrote:beerus is a huge bastard and thats it. just because he has the title of a god doesnt give him the right to do what he wants.
Yeah, it kinda does. It's not like anything ever indicates that Beerus is wrong. Trying to judge him by mortal standards would be like an ant putting a human on trial for stepping on an anthill. It's ridiculous.
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Alex9196 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:18 pm

but he is also mortal and does make mistakes. kaioshin did mistakes too. also whis offered goku to be the next god of destruction after beerus. so its basically a job. now if goku takes his offer is he than also free of "mortal standards"? just because he said yes to an offer?

someone who accepts a god without questioning his actions is naive.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:20 pm

Alex9196 wrote:but he is also mortal and does make mistakes. kaioshin did mistakes too. also whis offered goku to be the next god of destruction after beerus. so its basically a job. now if goku takes his offer is he than also free of "mortal standards"? just because he said yes to an offer?

someone who accepts a god without questioning his actions is naive.
Yes, he would be. Because he'd be above all of that.

I guess you'd better condemn basically every character in BoG, then. No one ever questions Beerus.

And as far as naivete goes, someone who condemns something that they have no way of even comprehending is just stupid, which I would think is worse.
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Alex9196 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:30 pm

ok but why cant i comprehend it? because i am human? obviously beerus comprehends it right? but since he was once a "lower being" before he couldnt comprehend it their either or what? so the moment someone accepts whis offer he just magically comprehends everything? NO. also if the gods are so smart why did kaioshin miserably fail to stop buu? why did buu, a lower being as you call him kill 4 kaioshin? why did kaioshin ask goku gohan and vegeta for help, mere mortals? because he is a normal being who holds the title of god.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:34 pm

Alex9196 wrote:ok but why cant i comprehend it? because i am human? obviously beerus comprehends it right? but since he was once a "lower being" before he couldnt comprehend it their either or what? so the moment someone accepts whis offer he just magically comprehends everything? NO. also if the gods are so smart why did kaioshin miserably fail to stop buu? why did buu, a lower being as you call him kill 4 kaioshin? why did kaioshin ask goku gohan and vegeta for help, mere mortals? because he is a normal being who holds the title of god.
I was referring to those in-universe, not you in particular, although, if you are a follower of, say, Christianity, for example, I encourage you to check out the book of Job, which is built around the issue, I never said anything about Buu, who is a cosmic force of destruction, and also not bound to mortal laws, and never once did I say anything about gods not being able to employ or otherwise work with mortals.
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Alex9196 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:39 pm

ok but buu is just a creation of a wizard, but if you take buu as a cosmic force then lets take freeza or cell for example. freeza in the new movie could also kill kaioshins like flyes. and he is not a god or cosmic force.

and by the way i am not christian. if i would be i probably wouldnt say that someone who doesnt questions god is naiv.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:42 pm

Alex9196 wrote:ok but buu is just a creation of a wizard, but if you take buu as a cosmic force then lets take freeza or cell for example. freeza in the new movie could also kill kaioshins like flyes. and he is not a god or cosmic force.

and by the way i am not christian. if i would be i probably wouldnt say that someone who doesnt questions god is naiv.
Toriyama has revealed that Buu is a cosmic force of destruction from the dawn of time or something that Bibidi just woke up. Stupid, but it is what it is.

I never said you were. I was just giving an example of a work which dealt with the issue we are discussing, on the off chance you were familiar with it.
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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Alex9196 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:49 pm

no i didnt mean it like you said i am a christian i was just saiying it. however now that i think about it it would make sense that buu wasnt created by bibidi. i always wondered why babidi didnt just create another buu instead of going through the trouble of waking him up. but if he was a natural force that would make sense. on the other hand it wouldnt make sense why the kaioshin didnt know that but whatever.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by rereboy » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote: I was referring to those in-universe, not you in particular, although, if you are a follower of, say, Christianity, for example, I encourage you to check out the book of Job, which is built around the issue, I never said anything about Buu, who is a cosmic force of destruction, and also not bound to mortal laws, and never once did I say anything about gods not being able to employ or otherwise work with mortals.
The christian god is all-mighty, all-knowing and perfect in every way. So, obviously, he will always be right as a natural consequent of that.

That is not the case with Beerus or any god in DB.

Beerus might be fulfilling a necessary job and have a status of a god, but he's not any more intelligent or perfect than a mortal might be. And, if the destruction he did was solely due to his job, if the things he destroyed had a need to be destroyed for the balance of the universe (which is why his job exists), then he would just be doing his job. But he doesn't. He uses his status, job and power to destroy whatever he wants to destroy for petty reasons. It's never about the job, it's always just about his mood and what selfish reason he wants. To him, his job is just an excuse. And, to top it off, he actually enjoys very much to kill and destroy stuff.
Kamiccolo9 wrote: Yeah, it kinda does. It's not like anything ever indicates that Beerus is wrong. Trying to judge him by mortal standards would be like an ant putting a human on trial for stepping on an anthill. It's ridiculous.
First, the topic is about his moral alignment, so, obviously, we have to judge him by human standard since we are human.

Second, unlike an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect in every way god, which would be automatically right in everything purely due to his perfection, Beerus is nothing like that, meaning that he can be wrong, meaning that we are just as able to judge him as we would regarding any other character.

Following your line of thought, we also couldn't ever judge anything that Kami or Dende (as a Kami) do, which obviously doesn't make much sense. Even Kami himself has admitted his flaws and mistakes.
Last edited by rereboy on Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by Alex9196 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:57 pm

first of i have to agree with you on what you said with beerus but not with the christian god thing.

i have a question. did you say that because you are believing it yourself or because you were pointing out what others believe?

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Re: The moral alignment of Beerus

Post by rereboy » Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:00 pm

Alex9196 wrote:first of i have to agree with you on what you said with beerus but not with the christian god thing.

i have a question. did you say that because you are believing it yourself or because you were pointing out what others believe?
Are you talking to me?

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