Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Rocketman]

There's also no weight to Gohan's defeat. The strongest man on earth gets crushed in two hits, and nobody cares, not even the crowd of friends and family. Gotenks doesn't bother to use SS3 for some reason, despite bursting into it immediately to fight Buu, and Vegeta casually goes "pfft, guess i might as well fight"

"BWAAH VEGETA DIDN'T EVEN LAST A MINUTE!" like that's a fucking surprise against somebody who can put down Mystic Gohan.

"WOOOAHHHH VEGETA'S ANGER MADE HIM STRONGER THAN GOKU", again, so fucking what against somebody who can put down Gohan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Mr. Boo was in the tournament, and he was planning to beat him if he was to fight him, so the no-SS rule wasn't there this time.

Who said Goku can't be Innocent Boo without Super Saiyan?

Goku, by saying that he may lose in an all-out fight with Oob.[/quote]
How does that prove Goku can't beat Innocent Boo in base? He fights Oob in base and then says Oob is as good as he expected. He was expecting Oob to be stronger than Good Boo. Base Goku ~ Angry Oob > Good Boo

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How does that prove Goku can't beat Innocent Boo in base? He fights Oob in base and then says Oob is as good as he expected. He was expecting Oob to be stronger than Good Boo. Base Goku ~ Angry Oob > Good Boo

Goku said that Oob didn't know how to use his power, since he never trained, so he probably wasn't as strong as Pure Boo, even though his dormant powers are as great as Pure Boo's power, which is what Goku saw. Goku expected Oob to be a trained fighter, but it turned out that he wasn't.

Also, you are suggesting that base Goku is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. How is that even possible? (Ignoring BoG/FnF/Super.)

[Kaboom]

Let's try to stay on-topic and not venture too far off into only partially-related strength debates, please.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Let's try to stay on-topic and not venture too far off into only partially-related strength debates, please.

How is this off-topic? We are talking about Goku's power in the 28th TB, which is related to how he compares to Gohan & Gotenks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku said that Oob didn't know how to use his power, since he never trained, so he probably wasn't as strong as Pure Boo, even though his dormant powers are as great as Pure Boo's power, which is what Goku saw. Goku expected Oob to be a trained fighter, but it turned out that he wasn't.

He doesn't know how to use it properly, only when he's angry, similar to Kid Gohan.

Oob was angry when he fought Goku.

Also, you are suggesting that base Goku is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. How is that even possible? (Ignoring BoG/FnF/Super.)

No I'm not. I only think he's stronger than Good Boo but not by leaps and bounds.

It's possible because plot is determined around power and gains are never consistent.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He doesn't know how to use it properly, only when he's angry, similar to Kid Gohan.

Oob was angry when he fought Goku.

That doesn't mean he released all of his dormant powers.

No I'm not. I only think he's stronger than Good Boo but not by leaps and bounds.

It's possible because plot is determined around power and gains are never consistent.

So, above SS2 Goku... since when have gains been that much inconsistent in the manga? And how does plot force Goku to be on that level?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

That doesn't mean he released all of his dormant powers.

Enough of his dormant power that Goku thinks he's enough to beat Good Boo. Hence the "you were as great as I expected".

So, above SS2 Goku... since when have gains been that much inconsistent in the manga? And how does plot force Goku to be on that level?

Piccolo into the Android arc? Or on Kaio's planet? Gotenks' ROSAT gains? All of the Z-warriors making better gains into the Saiyan arc than they did in their whole life in DB? (If you follow scouter numbers for that.)

I'm not saying the plot forces Goku to be that strong. It could be arbitrary. Toriyama can make his characters however strong he wants. What requires Piccolo post-Kaio's planet to be arguably stronger than Nail?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Enough of his dormant power that Goku thinks he's enough to beat Good Boo. Hence the "you were as great as I expected".

Or, Goku could tell how great Oob's dormant powers were without Oob reaching that level.

Piccolo into the Android arc?

You mean Piccolo being on SS level? That's not a fact. Kuririn & Piccolo thought that he was stronger than the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans, until we learned that these were weaklings that never appeared in the future.

Or on Kaio's planet?

We don't know if he was stronger than Nail. Nail was simply impressed with his power, which just means that Piccolo is stronger than an average Namekian warrior. Plus, it would make sense for Piccolo to go beyond his ~3.000 battle power he previously was, even if he trained for only a week, since this was the first time he did gravity training, not to mention he was dead, and not to mention that Kaio trained him.

Gotenks' ROSAT gains?

That was a set-up for a gag. Piccolo most likely misjudged Gotenks' power, since he was comparing it to Evil Boo's, who was apparently supressed. Unless if you want to believe that SS Goten after RoSaT is stronger than SS3 Goku.

All of the Z-warriors making better gains into the Saiyan arc than they did in their whole life in DB?

Of course they would, they trained under Kami for the first time, and had each other for sparring partners.

[Captain Space]

Gotenks' ROSAT gains?

That was a set-up for a gag. Piccolo most likely misjudged Gotenks' power, since he was comparing it to Evil Boo's, who was apparently supressed. Unless if you want to believe that SS Goten after RoSaT is stronger than SS3 Goku.

I don't think Buu was suppressing his power at that point...and I fail to see what SSJ Goten's power has to do with this. There's a general attitude of "you can only win if you fuse!" and then after they fuse Piccolo is like, "Huh, maybe they can win...", so...base Gotenks > either of the kids individually in SSJ.

I mean, SSJ Gotenks at that point was definitely above SSJ3 Goku, given how he did against Buu.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Or, Goku could tell how great Oob's dormant powers were without Oob reaching that level.

If you choose to interpret it like that, we can agree to disagree.

I just don't think Base Goku being weaker than Good Boo is a fact, just a viable option.

You mean Piccolo being on SS level? That's not a fact. Kuririn & Piccolo thought that he was stronger than the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans, until we learned that these were weaklings that never appeared in the future.

Regardless of if you think he's above Freeza or not, he should still be well above every Base Saiyan, unless you think he went completely brain dead.

We don't know if he was stronger than Nail. Nail was simply impressed with his power, which just means that Piccolo is stronger than an average Namekian warrior. Plus, it would make sense for Piccolo to go beyond his ~3.000 battle power he previously was, even if he trained for only a week, since this was the first time he did gravity training, not to mention he was dead, and not to mention that Kaio trained him.

It would come off as cocky to me if Nail praised the power of someone weaker or on par with himself to me. Either way Piccolo's gains on Kaio's should be better than Saiyan arc Goku's and Piccolo only had 6 days. He also thought he could be of help against 1st form Freeza which doesn't really work if he's so pitifully weak.

That was a set-up for a gag. Piccolo most likely misjudged Gotenks' power, since he was comparing it to Evil Boo's, who was apparently supressed.

Since Trunks and Piccolo came to the same conclusion on their own wouldn't that just mean Boo was misjudged and not Gotenks? Goku said Boo's Ki was like a lie, and there's nothing contradicting Gotenks powering up vastly, only Gotenks being stronger than Boo in base.

[Captain Space]

You mean Piccolo being on SS level? That's not a fact. Kuririn & Piccolo thought that he was stronger than the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans, until we learned that these were weaklings that never appeared in the future.

Regardless of if you think he's above Freeza or not, he should still be well above every Base Saiyan, unless you think he went completely brain dead.

I mean, the manga shows him sparring with SSJ Goku, so he's gotta be vaguely somewhere near SSJ level at least. (Admittedly it's a cover page, but it's the only instance the manga shows his training for the androids.)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I mean, the manga shows him sparring with SSJ Goku, so he's gotta be vaguely somewhere near SSJ level at least. (Admittedly it's a cover page, but it's the only instance the manga shows his training for the androids.)

The story just seems truly nonsensical if Piccolo is weaker than even Yardrat SS Goku in my honest opinion. Me and DBZGTKOSDH don't agree on that so I'd rather start another debate about it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think Buu was suppressing his power at that point...and I fail to see what SSJ Goten's power has to do with this. There's a general attitude of "you can only win if you fuse!" and then after they fuse Piccolo is like, "Huh, maybe they can win...", so...base Gotenks > either of the kids individually in SSJ.

I mean, SSJ Gotenks at that point was definitely above SSJ3 Goku, given how he did against Buu.

If Boo was at full power, Piccolo wouldn't wonder if base or SS Gotenks would have a chance against him, since he is on around the same level as SS3 Gotenks.

If you choose to interpret it like that, we can agree to disagree.

I just don't think Base Goku being weaker than Good Boo is a fact, just a viable option.

That's cool then. I just don't see how it makes sense, nor do I see any reason to interpret it like that.

Regardless of if you think he's above Freeza or not, he should still be well above every Base Saiyan, unless you think he went completely brain dead.

He is definitely above every base Saiyan, since he is kicking Dr. Gero's ass easily. His merging with Nail probably played a role in his gains as well IMO.

It would come off as cocky to me if Nail praised the power of someone weaker or on par with himself to me. Either way Piccolo's gains on Kaio's should be better than Saiyan arc Goku's and Piccolo only had 6 days. He also thought he could be of help against 1st form Freeza which doesn't really work if he's so pitifully weak.

Did he know how strong Freeza was before going there? I can't remember.

Since Trunks and Piccolo came to the same conclusion on their own wouldn't that just mean Boo was misjudged and not Gotenks? Goku said Boo's Ki was like a lie, and there's nothing contradicting Gotenks powering up vastly, only Gotenks being stronger than Boo in base.

We know that SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT is around SS3 Goku's level, since if he wasn't, Piccolo would have gotten the kids inside the RoSaT immidiately. If base Gotenks post-RoSaT surpassed SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT, it means that the base kids surpassed their SS selves pre-RoSaT. The kids, while in the same form, weren't many times weaker than the adults, so that would place base Goten & Trunks at around the same level as SS Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, which makes their SS form much stronger than SS3 Goku... I'm having a really hard time buying that. Trunks isn't reliable, and Piccolo thought this for only a moment, which was a gag scene.

I mean, the manga shows him sparring with SSJ Goku, so he's gotta be vaguely somewhere near SSJ level at least. (Admittedly it's a cover page, but it's the only instance the manga shows his training for the androids.)

That just places Piccolo far above base Goku. SS Goku could have been supressing his power in order to help Piccolo train.

[dbgtFO]

We know that SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT is around SS3 Goku's level, since if he wasn't, Piccolo would have gotten the kids inside the RoSaT immidiately. If base Gotenks post-RoSaT surpassed SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT, it means that the base kids surpassed their SS selves pre-RoSaT. The kids, while in the same form, weren't many times weaker than the adults, so that would place base Goten & Trunks at around the same level as SS Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, which makes their SS form much stronger than SS3 Goku... I'm having a really hard time buying that. Trunks isn't reliable, and Piccolo thought this for only a moment, which was a gag scene.

Nope, nothing says their base forms have to be stronger than their SS selves for it to be the case for Gotenks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nope, nothing says their base forms have to be stronger than their SS selves for it to be the case for Gotenks.

Gotenks' battle power is based on Goten's & Trunks' battle power. Unless for some reason the multiplier of Fusion changes, there is no other way to look at it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Perhaps it's an exponential increase?

[Bando]

Pretty sure it's based on the whims of Tori-bot (hey, that's technically an in-universe answer...).

[dbgtFO]

Nope, nothing says their base forms have to be stronger than their SS selves for it to be the case for Gotenks.

Gotenks' battle power is based on Goten's & Trunks' battle power. Unless for some reason the multiplier of Fusion changes, there is no other way to look at it.

Yes his power is dependent on their power, but the fusion formula may not work in the conventional way people assume it does.

[FoolsGil]

We've never seen two humans become one person before. It's ingrained into our minds.

I don't get Mystic Gohan either. He was worthless.