Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Bando]

The SS2 & SS3 multipliers don't come from magazines or the Daizenshuu, they come from the Super Exciting Guides, which are as legit as the Daizenshuu, and the specific section that has these multipliers was supervised by Toriyama.

Whoops... Seems I'm not as up to speed either.

Thanks for the correction.

[h0kuten]

Toriyama said in an interview that he re-read the entire manga before the production of Battle of Gods. Considering the man also speaks Japanese it means he read a more accurate version than Herms. Yet till this day, he still firmly believes that Goku was supposed to be the strongest in the Majin Buu Saga, but some fan speculation says other-wise.

When you get down to the details of it nothing, such as the building blocks for Gotenks Pre-ROST, were actually proven after the fact. When people argue that Goku cannot surpass Gohan in his life time, or that he maxed out in the Majin Buu Saga or has no reasonable means to train, when Dragonball Super shows him having King Kai create heavy objects so he can train, just shows how biased a lot of fans are and how much hatred they have to the main protagonist of Dragonball.

a) Yes Goku can get stronger through training
b) No Goku & Vegeta didn't maximize their strength in the Majin Buu Saga
c) Was Goku supposed to be stronger as implied by new material? Probably

[rereboy]

Toriyama said in an interview that he re-read the entire manga before the production of Battle of Gods. Considering the man also speaks Japanese it means he read a more accurate version than Herms. Yet till this day, he still firmly believes that Goku was supposed to be the strongest in the Majin Buu Saga, but some fan speculation says other-wise.

When you get down to the details of it nothing, such as the building blocks for Gotenks Pre-ROST, were actually proven after the fact. When people argue that Goku cannot surpass Gohan in his life time, or that he maxed out in the Majin Buu Saga or has no reasonable means to train, when Dragonball Super shows him having King Kai create heavy objects so he can train, just shows how biased a lot of fans are and how much hatred they have to the main protagonist of Dragonball.

a) Yes Goku can get stronger through training
b) No Goku & Vegeta didn't maximize their strength in the Majin Buu Saga
c) Was Goku supposed to be stronger as implied by new material? Probably

That would make sense if Goku surpassed Gohan by the end of the manga, not six months after Buu.

[h0kuten]

Toriyama said in an interview that he re-read the entire manga before the production of Battle of Gods. Considering the man also speaks Japanese it means he read a more accurate version than Herms. Yet till this day, he still firmly believes that Goku was supposed to be the strongest in the Majin Buu Saga, but some fan speculation says other-wise.

When you get down to the details of it nothing, such as the building blocks for Gotenks Pre-ROST, were actually proven after the fact. When people argue that Goku cannot surpass Gohan in his life time, or that he maxed out in the Majin Buu Saga or has no reasonable means to train, when Dragonball Super shows him having King Kai create heavy objects so he can train, just shows how biased a lot of fans are and how much hatred they have to the main protagonist of Dragonball.

a) Yes Goku can get stronger through training
b) No Goku & Vegeta didn't maximize their strength in the Majin Buu Saga
c) Was Goku supposed to be stronger as implied by new material? Probably

That would make sense if Goku surpassed Gohan by the end of the manga, not six months after Buu.

Piccolo increased 300 fold+ in a few years without any reasonable explanation.
Gotenks Base Post surpassed his previous Ssj without any reasonable explanation.

Why do fans not ask for reasonable explanations for any character with the exclusion of Goku?

Dragonball Super is heavily implying Goku was stronger in the Buu Saga, it's almost becoming silly to deny it at this point.

[Captain Space]

but some fan speculation says other-wise.

And Goku flat-out, unequivocally saying that he couldn't take Super Buu...

[h0kuten]

but some fan speculation says other-wise.

And Goku flat-out, unequivocally saying that he couldn't take Super Buu...

Let's not rehash the same old arguments again, there is absolutely no reason to flood the thread.

A debate can be made for both sides.

Please stay on topic.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Toriyama really wanted his writers to believe Goku was stronger than Gotenks and Gohan, which is why he purposely writes in Goku flat-out saying 3 times he can't beat Evil Boo? Oh, I forgot, he wanted his readers to believe Goku was lying, how could I forget? Thank you Toriyama, you really showed me you intended for Goku to be stronger when you made your characters explicitly say Gotenks will be stronger than Goku.

[Captain Space]

but some fan speculation says other-wise.

And Goku flat-out, unequivocally saying that he couldn't take Super Buu...

Let's not rehash the same old arguments again, there is absolutely no reason to flood the thread.

A debate can be made for both sides.

Please stay on topic.

Um. What? You make a counter-point to that exact debate, but then when I do the same I'm getting off-topic? Despite both of us making points about the same thing, that being whether Goku or Gotenks/Gohan is stronger?

[rereboy]

Piccolo increased 300 fold+ in a few years without any reasonable explanation.
Gotenks Base Post surpassed his previous Ssj without any reasonable explanation.

Why do fans not ask for reasonable explanations for any character with the exclusion of Goku?

Dragonball Super is heavily implying Goku was stronger in the Buu Saga, it's almost becoming silly to deny it at this point.

Piccolo increased so much because his potential after merging with Nail increased a lot and then he even merged with Kami.

Gotenks' base power is very debatable.

And Goku took 7 years just to slightly surpass Gohan's SSJ2 level and unlock a new transformation, with the benefits of afterlife training.

It's true that Super seems to be implying it, but it just doesn't make sense.

[Doctor.]

I cannot understand how Super is implying anything.

Because Vegeta said Goku was number one?

Yea, guess what? He called Goku that back in the Boo arc too, when there was undeniable evidence that both Gotenks and Gohan were above Goku. So, clearly, Vegeta was just referring to Goku as the number one between them both, or he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Considering Vegeta's personality, either is acceptable.

[rereboy]

I cannot understand how Super is implying anything.

Because Vegeta said Goku was number one?

Yea, guess what? He called Goku that back in the Boo arc too, when there was undeniable evidence that both Gotenks and Gohan were above Goku. So, clearly, Vegeta was just referring to Goku as the number one between them both, or he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Considering Vegeta's personality, either is acceptable.

We still don't know how exactly Super will handle things, but the movies seemed to imply something like that already, with Gohan not doing any better than Goku against Beerus (he even seemed to do worse) and enraged SSJ2 Vegeta doing better than Goku and Gohan against Beerus. The implication is that either Vegeta became WAAAAY stronger than both of them in that moment or that Goku and Gohan are similar in power, with Goku probably even being better.

[Doctor.]

Well, I consider Gohan around 8-9x stronger than SS3 Goku, so I find it believable that Goku would be able to shorten the gap in a few years (he was around SS2 level in base form against Oob, after all). Goku surpassing Gohan though, I think that could only be explained if Gohan somehow keeps getting weaker because he doesn't train. If they really want to do nothing with the character, and want Goku & Veggie to surpass him, then adding a line like that wouldn't be too difficult.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I cannot understand how Super is implying anything.

Because Vegeta said Goku was number one?

He also said that Goku became the strongest in the universe after defeating Majin Boo.

We still don't know how exactly Super will handle things, but the movies seemed to imply something like that already, with Gohan not doing any better than Goku against Beerus (he even seemed to do worse) and enraged SSJ2 Vegeta doing better than Goku and Gohan against Beerus. The implication is that either Vegeta became WAAAAY stronger than both of them in that moment or that Goku and Gohan are similar in power, with Goku probably even being better.

Well, Goku & Vegeta being stronger than Gohan is a possible interpretation in BoG, but it isn't a fact that can't be proven otherwise. Gohan was beaten instantly because he got in Beerus' way when he was beating Boo, and Gotenks enraged Beerus by mentioning pudding, while Goku & Vegeta challenged Beerus without making him angry.

[rereboy]

He also said that Goku became the strongest in the universe after defeating Majin Boo.

He just basically said what he had already said in the Buu saga (the number 1 stuff) while contradicting himself later in the episode by saying that Goku is the strongest saiyan and that he will surpass him and, not only that, but surpass everyone to be the strongest. If Goku is the strongest, what is the need to specify saiyan and talk about others?

[Captain Space]

I cannot understand how Super is implying anything.

Because Vegeta said Goku was number one?

He also said that Goku became the strongest in the universe after defeating Majin Boo.

He said Goku was "Number One" after defeating Majin Buu.

Which is also what he said while Goku was fighting Kid Buu. And that sure as hell didn't mean Goku was stronger than Gohan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He said Goku was "Number One" after defeating Majin Buu.

Watching different subs, you are right. I guess the subs I saw that first were wrong, my bad.

[Bando]

Toriyama said in an interview that he re-read the entire manga before the production of Battle of Gods. Considering the man also speaks Japanese it means he read a more accurate version than Herms.

They read the same version, unless you're suggesting Toriyama holds a secret Japanese version which only the prophets of Goku can read.

[Captain Space]

He said Goku was "Number One" after defeating Majin Buu.

Watching different subs, you are right. I guess the subs I saw that first were wrong, my bad.

Ah, cool. (I was hoping I wasn't just remembering it wrong, hahah...)

[h0kuten]

Piccolo increased 300 fold+ in a few years without any reasonable explanation.
Gotenks Base Post surpassed his previous Ssj without any reasonable explanation.

Why do fans not ask for reasonable explanations for any character with the exclusion of Goku?

Dragonball Super is heavily implying Goku was stronger in the Buu Saga, it's almost becoming silly to deny it at this point.

Piccolo increased so much because his potential after merging with Nail increased a lot and then he even merged with Kami.

Gotenks' base power is very debatable.

And Goku took 7 years just to slightly surpass Gohan's SSJ2 level and unlock a new transformation, with the benefits of afterlife training.

It's true that Super seems to be implying it, but it just doesn't make sense.

It's fan speculation to assume Nail gave him some 'hidden potential' increase.

It's blatantly stated by Piccolo & Trunks that Gotenks' Base power surpassed his previous Super Saiyan.

As for Goku, it could have taken him 7 years to unlock Ssj2 & Ssj3, considering Goku would be the first to unlock Ssj3, it's easy to assume 'how' and 'why' it took so long to do. People spit all over unlocking 2 Ssj states like it shouldn't be a time consuming process.

It took Goku all of Dragonball and a majority of Z just to unlock Super Saiyan, but taking 7 years to unlock 2 new additional transformations isn't believable?

Anyways, we can just look at it like this if some die hard fans actually want to exclude BoG, RoF or Super from the continuity:

Buu

Goku
~Ssj3 36,000,000,000

Kid Buu
~FP 40,000,000,000
Fat Buu
~FP 15,000,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 4,500,000,000
~Ssj 18,000,000,000
Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 25,000,000,000
~Ssj 100,000,000,000
~Ssj2 200,000,000,000
~Ssj3 800,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan
~FP 1,200,000,000,000

EOZ

Goku
~Base 36,000,000,000
~Ssj 1,800,000,000,000
~Ssj2 3,600,000,000,000
~Ssj3 14,400,000,000,000

Oob
~Calm 5
~Enraged 40,000,000,000

There, all the Gotenks wank arguments are taken into account, both Gotenks & Gohan are several times stronger in the Buu Saga and we still got Goku surpassing them with the implications of EOZ.

[supercat]

Without knowing the minute details of the specific context, it's going to be pretty tough to make such a significant determination.