Do you think the end of Z will be re-written/retconned?

[funrush]

Even if Majins can't train, Uub is a human, so I assume he can.

[Cetra]

Boo does not need to train. He absorbs the heroes and then spits them out once he has defeated an enemy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I like the DBO story details, but I consider the game mechanics separately from the storyline, is all. (Actually, I don't know the game mechanics of DBO, only Xenoverse-- but I assume like most DB games, everyone's power levels and ways of training are not compatible with real power levels).

You just level-up by getting experience, like in most games.

[irreality]

You just level-up by getting experience, like in most games.

I can't say that tells me anything about the game mechanics that I didn't know before. Not that I particularly care, since this is not a thread on DBO and don't want to get into a side discussion, but I meant I had no idea if DBO was a game just like Xenoverse (battles fought through button presses translate into points and levels) or a turn-based RPG (list-based attacks) or more of a action/adventure game (experience won real-time), or whether there are "gym locations" or "power capsules" or "food" that powers you up as well.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I can't say that tells me anything about the game mechanics that I didn't know before. Not that I particularly care, since this is not a thread on DBO and don't want to get into a side discussion, but I meant I had no idea if DBO was a game just like Xenoverse (battles fought through button presses translate into points and levels) or a turn-based RPG (list-based attacks) or more of a action/adventure game (experience won real-time), or whether there are "gym locations" or "power capsules" or "food" that powers you up as well.

You earned experience by defeating opponents, completing missions, and through special items (such as capsules or food I think?) from what I recall. I think a gravity room was planned, but it never happened. You could also get stronger through a wish from Shenlong, I think.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, back to the topic... after thinking a little about it, BoG & FnF haven't caused any retcons to the original ending after all.

First of all, Bulma's line about her not having seen Goku for 5 years. FnF takes place 5 years before the 28th TB, so the big party that everyone but Goku went must have happened after Freeza's final death (and we may see it in Super).


Now, about Super Saiyan God & Oob's power... Many of us thought that Oob was as strong as Pure Boo, or at least he had the potential to reach that level, so it wouldn't make sense for Goku, who has absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form, to be excited about fighting him. What if we are wrong?

Seeing at what Goku was saying, he expected Oob to be a trained fighter who was supressing his power, and may had been so strong that he may even defeat Goku. In the actual fight, we see that Oob hasn't received any training, his true power appears when he gets angry, and he can't control it, and he is also on par with base Goku (Pure Boo was on SS3 Goku's level 10 years ago). However, Goku says that even though he has never trained & doesn't know how to control his power, he is as amazing as he expected him to be... many of us interpreted this as "you are as strong as I expected you to be", but what if this isn't what he actually means? What if that what Goku means is that Oob is as amazing as he expected him to be in the sense that he has the potential to rival him, and even surpass him one day?

Goku expected Oob to be a trained fighter, and as the reincarnation of Majin Boo, he was expected to have huge power, but he couldn't know how huge it was, so he assumed that there was even a chance for Oob to be stronger than him. Going purely by the manga, he should mean his SS3 form. Going by the movies as well, he should mean his SSGSS form, which wouldn't be surprising after seeing Freeza's gains through training, Oob should have the potential to far surpass Freeza. So in the end, Oob wasn't as strong as Goku expected him to be, but he has the potential to become that strong.

I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but it is a possible interpretation of the events, as is the interpretation of Angry Oob = Pure Boo, but the last one doesn't fit with the new movies, unless if at some point Goku & Vegeta lose their powers in Super (which I doubt).

[Basaku]

Goku said he would have been able to beat him if he wanted when he was at full power

Sorry but what kind of an argument is this lol? He couldn't, they had to made a giant Genki Dama with energy from an antire planet to beat him. Keep dreaming Goku

[Birusu16]

It needs to be retconned. There's literally no reason Goku should have any interest in fighting a Kid Buu level fighter when he's gone up against fighters like Whis, Beerus, and Golden Freeza. That list will most certainly be extended when they go to Universe 6 as well.

The only way you could get around that without retconning EoZ is to have Goku lose his god powers. Otherwise him being excited to fight Uub is essentially nonsense.

[Doctor.]

Goku said he would have been able to beat him if he wanted when he was at full power

Sorry but what kind of an argument is this lol? He couldn't, they had to made a giant Genki Dama with energy from an antire planet to beat him. Keep dreaming Goku

Two planets. The Namekians gave them their power, too, along with the entire Other World.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku said he would have been able to beat him if he wanted when he was at full power

Sorry but what kind of an argument is this lol? He couldn't, they had to made a giant Genki Dama with energy from an antire planet to beat him. Keep dreaming Goku

The reason he couldn't beat him was because he was messing around in their fight, and he got tired because SS3 drains his power. Then he had to gather ki for one minute, but he didn't get the chance to do it because SS3 drained all of his power while he was trying to gather ki. Which is why he had to use the Super Genki Dama.

It needs to be retconned. There's literally no reason Goku should have any interest in fighting a Kid Buu level fighter when he's gone up against fighters like Whis, Beerus, and Golden Freeza. That list will most certainly be extended when they go to Universe 6 as well.

The only way you could get around that without retconning EoZ is to have Goku lose his god powers. Otherwise him being excited to fight Uub is essentially nonsense.

He expected Oob to have trained, so he could have been stronger than Pure Boo.

[Birusu16]

Goku said he would have been able to beat him if he wanted when he was at full power

Sorry but what kind of an argument is this lol? He couldn't, they had to made a giant Genki Dama with energy from an antire planet to beat him. Keep dreaming Goku

The reason he couldn't beat him was because he was messing around in their fight, and he got tired because SS3 drains his power. Then he had to gather ki for one minute, but he didn't get the chance to do it because SS3 drained all of his power while he was trying to gather ki. Which is why he had to use the Super Genki Dama.

It needs to be retconned. There's literally no reason Goku should have any interest in fighting a Kid Buu level fighter when he's gone up against fighters like Whis, Beerus, and Golden Freeza. That list will most certainly be extended when they go to Universe 6 as well.

The only way you could get around that without retconning EoZ is to have Goku lose his god powers. Otherwise him being excited to fight Uub is essentially nonsense.

He expected Oob to have trained, so he could have been stronger than Pure Boo.

He still shouldn't have been excited when he's fought opponents FAR stronger than Kid Buu. I'm sorry, but I don't see Uub even with training (not that there's even any indication he'd become stronger than Kid Buu with training) ever even coming close to the levels of Whis, Beerus, and Freeza. I stand by my point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He still shouldn't have been excited when he's fought opponents FAR stronger than Kid Buu. I'm sorry, but I don't see Uub even with training (not that there's even any indication he'd become stronger than Kid Buu with training) ever even coming close to the levels of Whis, Beerus, and Freeza. I stand by my point.

If Freeza, who was born with the power he had on Namek, could reach God Goku's level after 4 months of training, why shouldn't Oob, who was born with the power Pure Boo had, be able to do the same? I would say that he should be able to become far stronger than Freeza became.

[Birusu16]

He still shouldn't have been excited when he's fought opponents FAR stronger than Kid Buu. I'm sorry, but I don't see Uub even with training (not that there's even any indication he'd become stronger than Kid Buu with training) ever even coming close to the levels of Whis, Beerus, and Freeza. I stand by my point.

If Freeza, who was born with the power he had on Namek, could reach God Goku's level after 4 months of training, why shouldn't Oob, who was born with the power Pure Boo had, be able to do the same? I would say that he should be able to become far stronger than Freeza became.

I'm not going to assume Buu holds the same amount of potential (or more) as Freeza when nothing indicates such.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not going to assume Buu holds the same amount of potential (or more) as Freeza when nothing indicates such.

Taking BoG, FnF, and the manga into account, Goku believes that Oob has the potential to surpass him, and we have no idea how strong he is at that point (he may have surpassed Whis), so I wouldn't say than nothing indicates this.

[Doctor.]

Oob wasn't born with the power of Boo. He was born with the power of a normal human, with the potential to get as strong/stronger than Boo.

Oob is like Gohan. Only that we know how strong Oob can get, whilst Gohan's potential was for some reason limitless.

[Birusu16]

I'm not going to assume Buu holds the same amount of potential (or more) as Freeza when nothing indicates such.

Taking BoG, FnF, and the manga into account, Goku believes that Oob has the potential to surpass him, and we have no idea how strong he is at that point (he may have surpassed Whis), so I wouldn't say than nothing indicates this.

Except you can't take BoGs and FnF into account (or at least I don't) as EoZ was written more than 10 years ago. Toriyama hadn't even thought of Whis, Beerus, SSJG, etc. much less made them a reality. So Goku, in that context, was strictly referring to his SSJ3 form, not his newer forms that weren't even a thought back then.

This is the exact reason why I said this needs to be retconned. Combining content that's years old with new content usually doesn't work because the new content wasn't even a thought back when the old content was still ongoing.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except you can't take BoGs and FnF into account (or at least I don't) as EoZ was written more than 10 years ago. Toriyama hadn't even thought of Whis, Beerus, SSJG, etc. much less made them a reality. So Goku, in that context, was strictly referring to his SSJ3 form, not his newer forms that weren't even a thought back then.

This is the exact reason why I said this needs to be retconned. Combining content that's years old with new content usually doesn't work because the new content wasn't even a thought back when the old content was still ongoing.

That's true, but we don't have any statements that indicate how strong or what forms Goku can use in the 28th TB, we assume he can go up to SS3 because that's the last thing we knew at that point. Taking BoG/FnF into account, Goku's base is almost as strong as his SSG, and he can go SSGSS. We know that Oob's dormant power is as great as Pure Boo's, but we have no idea how great Pure Boo's power is in the first place, since he never trained. Just like we had no idea how great Freeza's dormant power was before FnF.

BoG & FnF retconned the events of the 28th TB, since Toriyama didn't have them in his mind when writting it, but there is no reason for it to be re-writted, since there is no contradiction there.

Oob wasn't born with the power of Boo. He was born with the power of a normal human, with the potential to get as strong/stronger than Boo.

Oob is like Gohan. Only that we know how strong Oob can get, whilst Gohan's potential was for some reason limitless.

Both Oob & Gohan weren't born with normal power. They were born with huge power, but that power could only brought forth through their anger. They didn't train to create this power.

Gohan reached, and surpassed, those limits when he became Ultimate Gohan.

[Birusu16]

Except you can't take BoGs and FnF into account (or at least I don't) as EoZ was written more than 10 years ago. Toriyama hadn't even thought of Whis, Beerus, SSJG, etc. much less made them a reality. So Goku, in that context, was strictly referring to his SSJ3 form, not his newer forms that weren't even a thought back then.

This is the exact reason why I said this needs to be retconned. Combining content that's years old with new content usually doesn't work because the new content wasn't even a thought back when the old content was still ongoing.

That's true, but we don't have any statements that indicate how strong or what forms Goku can use in the 28th TB, we assume he can go up to SS3 because that's the last thing we knew at that point. Taking BoG/FnF into account, Goku's base is almost as strong as his SSG, and he can go SSGSS. We know that Oob's dormant power is as great as Pure Boo's, but we have no idea how great Pure Boo's power is in the first place, since he never trained. Just like we had no idea how great Freeza's dormant power was before FnF.

BoG & FnF retconned the events of the 28th TB, since Toriyama didn't have them in his mind when writting it, but there is no reason for it to be re-writted, since there is no contradiction there.

Oob wasn't born with the power of Boo. He was born with the power of a normal human, with the potential to get as strong/stronger than Boo.

Oob is like Gohan. Only that we know how strong Oob can get, whilst Gohan's potential was for some reason limitless.

Both Oob & Gohan weren't born with normal power. They were born with huge power, but that power could only brought forth through their anger. They didn't train to create this power.

Gohan reached, and surpassed, those limits when he became Ultimate Gohan.

Like I said though, I don't take BoGs and RoF into account because Toriyama hadn't even thought of them back then. So, in that context, Goku's most powerful form was SSJ3.

So the way I see it there's 1 of 2 choices.

1. You retcon EoZ and completely get rid of Uub as he's now a pointless addition due to Goku fighting much stronger opponents than Kid Buu.
2. You re-tell EoZ so it's now in line with the new content. This way you take into account the new forms for Goku and it would be understandable why he'd be excited for Uub. You can't do that with the current EoZ.

Just leaving it as is doesn't work IMO because all the new content wasn't even a thought back then meaning Goku being excited about Uub was strictly because he had potential to reach his level of power (which at the time was SSJ3).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Like I said though, I don't take BoGs and RoF into account because Toriyama hadn't even thought of them back then. So, in that context, Goku's most powerful form was SSJ3.

So the way I see it there's 1 of 2 choices.

1. You retcon EoZ and completely get rid of Uub as he's now a pointless addition due to Goku fighting much stronger opponents than Kid Buu.
2. You re-tell EoZ so it's now in line with the new content.

Just leaving it as is doesn't work IMO because all the new content wasn't even a thought back then meaning Goku being excited about Uub was strictly because he had potential to reach his level of power (which at the time was SSJ3).

Goku's most powerful form at that point was SS3, until BoG & FnF retconned this. Nothing in the end of the manga contradicts this, since we don't have Goku saying anything like "I'll use my strongest form, Super Saiyan 3!". There is also nothing that contradicts Goku being excited about Oob, since we have no idea what Pure Boo's potential is.

It's like saying that Toriyama should re-write the manga because he wasn't writting it with Goku, Piccolo, and Kami being aliens in his mind (he decided that they were all aliens when he was writting the 23rd TB).

[Birusu16]

Like I said though, I don't take BoGs and RoF into account because Toriyama hadn't even thought of them back then. So, in that context, Goku's most powerful form was SSJ3.

So the way I see it there's 1 of 2 choices.

1. You retcon EoZ and completely get rid of Uub as he's now a pointless addition due to Goku fighting much stronger opponents than Kid Buu.
2. You re-tell EoZ so it's now in line with the new content.

Just leaving it as is doesn't work IMO because all the new content wasn't even a thought back then meaning Goku being excited about Uub was strictly because he had potential to reach his level of power (which at the time was SSJ3).

Goku's most powerful form at that point was SS3, until BoG & FnF retconned this. Nothing in the end of the manga contradicts this, since we don't have Goku saying anything like "I'll use my strongest form, Super Saiyan 3!". There is also nothing that contradicts Goku being excited about Oob, since we have no idea what Pure Boo's potential is.

It's like saying that Toriyama should re-write the manga because he wasn't writting it with Goku, Piccolo, and Kami being aliens in his mind (he decided that they were all aliens when he was writting the 23rd TB).

But you see that's the point. EoZ in its current context doesn't work as Goku's most powerful form was SSJ3. SSJG and SSJGSSJ hadn't even been thought of. The only way it works IMO is if it's re-told and thus the new forms can now be taken into account and it becomes understandable as to why he's excited at the prospect of fighting Uub.

I'm not going to take 10+ year old content and latch it on to new content because that leads to an enormous amount of issues as I've continuously described.

[VegettoEX]

But you see that's the point. EoZ in its current context doesn't work as Goku's most powerful form was SSJ3. SSJG and SSJGSSJ hadn't even been thought of. The only way it works is if it's re-told and thus the new forms can now be taken into account and it becomes understandable as to why he's excited at the prospect of fighting Uub.

I don't see the problem here. Goku doesn't use any transformation against Uub; there is no struggle with Super Saiyan 3 Goku against Uub. Every single last thing Goku does can be hand-waved with "he's just in base form" or "he's just testing Uub" or "he's not truly getting serious". His excitement, regardless of whether his strongest form is SSJ3 or SSGSS or anything in between, can simply be at Uub's potential, not Uub's current state-of-being.

That reading of the scene worked fine in 1995, and it still works fine in 2015.